RedWideGamutRGB: discuss!

[erichann]

Hey Graeme,
I shot you an email right after the show. Never heard back, did it make it to you?

 

[Graeme Nattress]

Found it! Response sent and apologies for the delay in response.

Graeme

 

[Dominik Bauch]

Here it is with same settings as a night look. 2000ISO

This looks great!
What lut are you using David?
So assuming that you select the red wide gamut color, along with log3g10. What lut are you using to convert back into Rec 709? I've tried a bunch of cineon to rec709 luts with no success. They need a ton of pre lut grading to even be moderately nice looking. Totally get that cineon isn't close to log3g10...
I also tried some logc to rec709 alexa luts, thinking that the wide gamut logC might be more similar....
Any chance you would share the lut or how you are rec 709-ing your clips?


Will this eventually be a way to more easily get a more filmic look off the bat? i.e. more alexa look than RG4? If so that would be huge.

 

[Phil Holland]

I'm on the road shooting, but wanted to chime in as i've been experimenting with REDWideGamutRGB/Log310.

From my initial observations what this "new way" creates is a different way to develop color and tonality with all RED footage. It changes the inherent general look that we see in standard and well used color spaces and gamma curves to create a more rich and dense image.

Some samples. Just a test frame of me in a different hotel, slight yellow ambiance to the room due to the curtains and wall paper.

Log

DRAGONcolor2/REDlogFilm

REDWideGammaRGB/Log3G10

Video Gamma/Rec.709

DRAGONcolor2/REDgamma4

REDWideGammaRGB/Log3G10 + Rec.709 3D LUT

Custom Grades w/ REDWideGammaRGB/Log3G10

Pretty interesting stuff. I have a whole bunch of other images I've been checking out from this current shoot that I can't share, but I like where this is going and alludes to some very different looking RED footage in the future with an eye for current and future standards. Smart stuff.

 

[Derek Carlson]

Wow, that REDWideGamutRGB/Log310 ungraded footage almost looks more Alexa like to my eye.

 

[Christoffer Glans]

Wow, that REDWideGamutRGB/Log310 ungraded footage almost looks more Alexa like to my eye.

Yeah, there's definitely something flatter in the colors of Log310, in a good way. RedlogFilm pops out magenta and pink much more so I'll guess we get a bit better skin color transitions. Can't wait to try out all of this in Resolve as soon as everything is ready in there. :emote_happyhappy:

 

[David Battistella]

I think on that one it was a rec 709LUT a based on a Kodak stock. But I am using a different set of rec709 LUTs now and looking at footage from a very wide variety of lighting, color temp, mixed lighting, daylight, natural light situations to see how they perform.

I think that the RWG and LOG3g10 combo is really making images pop out of the gate with only minimal tweaks needed depending on conditions. It's easy to get to a nice accurate looking image with good color separation very quickly and then to move ahead an make some tweaks from there.

I've applied this stuff to RED images going back to 2007/08 and my jaw just drops at how this combination had significantly improved color rendition and separation. That goes for some tungstan stuff as well.

David

This looks great!
What lut are you using David?
So assuming that you select the red wide gamut color, along with log3g10. What lut are you using to convert back into Rec 709? I've tried a bunch of cineon to rec709 luts with no success. They need a ton of pre lut grading to even be moderately nice looking. Totally get that cineon isn't close to log3g10...
I also tried some logc to rec709 alexa luts, thinking that the wide gamut logC might be more similar....
Any chance you would share the lut or how you are rec 709-ing your clips?


Will this eventually be a way to more easily get a more filmic look off the bat? i.e. more alexa look than RG4? If so that would be huge.

 

[jussi rovanpera]

So what is the intended workflow with RedWideGamutRGB?
The wider gamut will look desaturated on a 709 monitor.
Are the primaries so different, that simply adding saturation is not optimal, but one would need a gamut transform?
Some colorists are using the CameraRGB instead of DragonColors or RedColors, to get a wider gamut out of the footage, and have their own transforms/luts for that.

 

[Graeme Nattress]

So what is the intended workflow with RedWideGamutRGB?
The wider gamut will look desaturated on a 709 monitor.
Are the primaries so different, that simply adding saturation is not optimal, but one would need a gamut transform?
Some colorists are using the CameraRGB instead of DragonColors or RedColors, to get a wider gamut out of the footage, and have their own transforms/luts for that.

CameraRGB does work, but there's not just one CameraRGB, but a different one for each and every Camera and setting combination, which makes it impractical to use. REDWideGamut is a standardized cameraRGB and thus can be used in more complex workflows.

Yes, it will look rather desaturated on a 709 display so gamut transforms will be provided. The release of the colour space itself is just the first phase.

Graeme

 

[Björn Benckert]

Can we use this in current versions of resolve? Grading a project friday.

 

[Graeme Nattress]

Can we use this in current versions of resolve? Grading a project friday.

It's in the latest Resolve release.

Graeme

 

[Michael Lindsay]

.. sorry to be ignorant Graeme ...but will resolve (latest release) accurately transfrorm back to 709 without further LUTS from you...

thanks

M

 

[Graeme Nattress]

.. sorry to be ignorant Graeme ...but will resolve (latest release) accurately transfrorm back to 709 without further LUTS from you...

thanks

M

Resolve won't do this on its own. The next phase of this whole process is the generation of the 3D LUT cubes that will accurately do this for you in an aesthetically pleasing manner.

Graeme

 

[Christoffer Glans]

Resolve won't do this on its own. The next phase of this whole process is the generation of the 3D LUT cubes that will accurately do this for you in an aesthetically pleasing manner.

Graeme

So what you're saying is that everything is set on the blackmagic side, we are only waiting for a proper 3D LUT cube for the output node? Do you know approximately when it might be ready?

 

[Graeme Nattress]

So what you're saying is that everything is set on the blackmagic side, we are only waiting for a proper 3D LUT cube for the output node? Do you know approximately when it might be ready?

It's a touch more complex than that, but that's basically right. No hard timeline yet.

Graeme

 

[Elsie N]

I'm on the road shooting, but wanted to chime in as i've been experimenting with REDWideGamutRGB/Log310.

From my initial observations what this "new way" creates is a different way to develop color and tonality with all RED footage. It changes the inherent general look that we see in standard and well used color spaces and gamma curves to create a more rich and dense image.

Some samples. Just a test frame of me in a different hotel, slight yellow ambiance to the room due to the curtains and wall paper.

Log

DRAGONcolor2/REDlogFilm

REDWideGammaRGB/Log3G10

Video Gamma/Rec.709

DRAGONcolor2/REDgamma4

REDWideGammaRGB/Log3G10 + Rec.709 3D LUT

Custom Grades w/ REDWideGammaRGB/Log3G10

Pretty interesting stuff. I have a whole bunch of other images I've been checking out from this current shoot that I can't share, but I like where this is going and alludes to some very different looking RED footage in the future with an eye for current and future standards. Smart stuff.

Phil, I'm addressing you rather than Graeme since you are known to work closely with Adobe, but assuming this will be available in Premiere, do you have any sort of timeframe for that happening?

Or Graeme if you can answer?

 

[Marcus Friedlander]

Wow!!!! Can't wait to dig into this and start playing!!!!

I'm looking at these images on an old ipad (and will look on an actual display when I get home) but is the RGB/3G10 imager sharper as well as more saturated?

To my eye, it seems to have more pop, but from something more than just the saturation (particularly around the eyes).

 

[Michael Lindsay]

Resolve won't do this on its own. The next phase of this whole process is the generation of the 3D LUT cubes that will accurately do this for you in an aesthetically pleasing manner.

Graeme

thanks Graeme

That make sense ... I'll patiently wait for some high pression Cubes.. don't rush ;-)

 

[Dominik Bauch]

I think on that one it was a rec 709LUT a based on a Kodak stock. But I am using a different set of rec709 LUTs now and looking at footage from a very wide variety of lighting, color temp, mixed lighting, daylight, natural light situations to see how they perform.

I think that the RWG and LOG3g10 combo is really making images pop out of the gate with only minimal tweaks needed depending on conditions. It's easy to get to a nice accurate looking image with good color separation very quickly and then to move ahead an make some tweaks from there.

I've applied this stuff to RED images going back to 2007/08 and my jaw just drops at how this combination had significantly improved color rendition and separation. That goes for some tungstan stuff as well.

David

Using the basic reslove film look luts I'm not having success; I get s super crushed, low saturation image. An Alexa lut is better but still desaturated. I love what you're saying but have yet to see any great results myself... looking forward to the 'official' conversion luts. Unless anyone wants to share luts they've been using successfully...?!

 

[M Most]

Using the basic reslove film look luts I'm not having success; I get s super crushed, low saturation image. An Alexa lut is better but still desaturated. I love what you're saying but have yet to see any great results myself... looking forward to the 'official' conversion luts. Unless anyone wants to share luts they've been using successfully...?!

Graeme has already stated that a proper transform has not been released yet. Attaching a Resolve film look LUT is not achieving a proper or even sensible color pipeline. It is throwing things against the wall to see if something sort of works. I understand people's impatience, but any LUT is designed for a certain set of expected input values. LUTs are not "generalized" and somehow able to magically yield great results regardless of the input color space, the input gamma curve, or the input exposure. They are specific. The new Red color space needs LUT's that are designed for it, just as Graeme has pointed out (even though people here don't seem to be listening.......).