Reds impact on still photography

[Gavin Greenwalt]

It would seem that the technology is an order of magnitude away from that

SMM

True. But remember that Moore's law states that an order of magnitude occurs every 4-5 years.

REDOne can shoot 4k @ 30hz. Epic FF35 can shoot 4k @ 150hz. It's been 2-3 years.

For only $9k you can now buy 2 RED Rocket™s and process 60 4k frames per second.

If RED could even just stick to Moore's law we'll see 300fps cameras in the next generation. Shoot a 300fps camera with a 360 degree shutter and some clever software could very easily interpolate just about any shutter speed or frame rate you desire.

 

[Emiliano Ranzani]

To throw my .02 cents in here, R1 can be used for just about anything really. It comes down to how practical it is for that given application. To give an example. When I was beta testing a particular handheld system with the RED, I shot a wedding with R1. Now on paper, that seems ridiculous and perhaps disastrous. Now I will admit, it was very challenging and there were times when I was saying to myself, what an idiot I am for doing this but the footage looked great. I think there are ways you could probably use R1 for weddings, perhaps not as an A camera but for getting beauty shots or what not.

The point is, if a camera can be turned on and record footage it potentially can be used for just about anything. .

My point wasn't the fact you "cannot" use these cameras for certain job because the machine won't perform well. After all, you could shoot news gathering with a 35mm camera as in the old days.
The point is that certain "environments" aren't suited for certain tools and viceversa.
I am sure a newsreel shot with RED1 would look good (as long as the colors aren't overdone cinema-style...things might not look real that way), but I cannot see it fitting the ENG world and its rules, which go further than simply having a camera too shoot stuff.

I mostly concour with Mr Gibby, even though I still think even the Scarlet, as it is RAW-based (is there a chance you will be able to shoot directly in 1080p and 720p HD unlike the RedOne?), won't be that far from its bigger sister (which is a good thing), thus it won't fit the ENG biz.

By the way I see things, the tapeless workflow might be an even bigger stopper: as Mr Gibby pointed out, TV editors can edit RED material - but I hardly see journalists going around with hard-drives (payed by the broadcaster?) and the camera companies who work in the field paying for laptop for their camera assistant.

As long as we won't get a dispendable tapeless format, tape will be the leader in TV work. Or at least, these are my two cents.

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

I mostly concour with Mr Gibby, even though I still think even the Scarlet, as it is RAW-based (is there a chance you will be able to shoot directly in 1080p and 720p HD unlike the RedOne?), won't be that far from its bigger sister (which is a good thing), thus it won't fit the ENG biz.

Yes it's currently in the spec list.

You will be able to shoot to REDCode 1080p RGB instead of RAW.

 

[Joseph Ward]

Yes it's currently in the spec list.

You will be able to shoot to REDCode 1080p RGB instead of RAW.

This is the most interesting info for me because what they do with RAW keeps getting better, what will RedCode RGB be like?

Is Red going to refine RedCode RGB with free firmware upgrades, color, noise, allow differ software features, etc.?

 

[morgan_moore]

True. But remember that Moore's law states that an order of magnitude occurs every 4-5 years. .

Indeed Im hoping that that will come quite quickly 3 years or whatever

Im not saying it cant happen

------

ON shooting downressed to 1080

I use a nikon D3 for stills that shoots both RAW and a quick turnaround solution (jpg medium) at the same time onto different cards

This gives me files I can deliver to press deadlines AND quality archive material

I cant see people shooting on a 'low mode' butchering thier footage in camera and ruining its archival value

S

 

[Steve Gibby]

Morgan,

Tons of us here use DSLR cameras in our stills work, so we're very familiar with the concept of shooting RAW and JPEG simultaneously as you described.

But you're missing the point of how a DSMC camera will usually be used to acquire stills. I specifically addressed that in my post #26 on Page three of this thread:

"I see some confusion in many posts on this thread about how a DSMC will usually be used - Morgan Moore’s post above, etc. RED Has posted many DSMC mockups, and displayed DSMC mockups at the Rio hotel during NAB. Again this is subject to change, but those DSMC mockups included a simple switch on the camera to change quickly from motion to stills shooting. The assumption is that users could have separate profiles stored for the motion and stills shooting of the day’s subjects, and on the fly switch between them. If it was sports, maybe you’d be shooting 3k/29.97 fps/ISO 400/120th second or 1/196th second shutter for motion, and perhaps have the stills profile set for AF, ISO 600/ and 1/500th shutter, fps you prefer, or whatever else you prefer. In operation, at the flick of your thumb you’d be able to switch from a motion shooting profile to a stills shooting profile.

I see the mistaken notion on this thread that the only way you will be able to get stills from a DSMC is to pull them from motion footage – thus posts like that of Morgan Moore, and others. Yes, that can be done in certain instances, as we have been doing with RED One. But if the features RED has posted stay in the final specifications of the DSMC, then the primary way to get stills from a DSMC will be to simply switch it to stills mode and shoot it as you would your Nikon or Canon DSLR."


------------------------------

To add to the above, in the stills shooting mode on the DSMC it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if there wasn't a RAW + JPEG option. The DSMC camera mockups posted have also shown multiple CF card slots.

On a motion side note, which I should have noted in my earlier posts, but Gavin rightly mentioned above, preliminary specs described by RED Team for the motion portion of the DSMC have mentioned the the ability to switch between RAW (r3d) and RGB recording. A straight to RGB option in the final specs would be a major plus for anyone trying to do short turnaround productions - ENG, some non-hardlined EFP, etc.

When the tech specs of the DSMC cameras are announced as finalized, and some of the cameras ship and can be field tested, then is the time to start drawing conclusions on what a DSMC can or can't do or be used for. Until then its best not to jump to any hard conclusions.

 

[Steve Gibby]

This is the most interesting info for me because what they do with RAW keeps getting better, what will RedCode RGB be like?

Is Red going to refine RedCode RGB with free firmware upgrades, color, noise, allow differ software features, etc.?

I have no direct knowledge of how RED will ultimately approach their RGB option, assuming it stays in the final specifications for the DSMC cameras. That said, if it does stay in the final specifications I'd suggest that it will look amazingly good scaled down in-camera, in real time from the camera's native 3k RAW, and that true to RED's pattern with RED One, they will constantly work to improve and upgrade the camera's RGB capabilities.

Keep in mind that apparently RED's approach to the development and rollout of these new cameras is, and will, be different than with RED One. IMO these new cameras will essentially be rolled out as fully developed, finished products. IMO that's not to say RED won't continue to tweak their capabilities and offer firmware upgrades - but they won't have to do that anywhere near as much as they've done with RED One.

I was way stoked to be one of the early adopters - essentially a beta tester - of RED One! I happily accepted and participated in that process. But with these new cameras, I believe RED will have them "ready to rock" right out of the box - a very different animal than RED One in that sense. I'll be one of the very first to receive Epic, Scarlet, and DSMC models, so you can expect me to post on RED User my early and thorough evaluations of the cameras when I get them and can put them to work.

All of the above is just my opinion...once tech specs are finalized we'll know much more.

Fun times ahead though eh!?

 

[Steve Gibby]

I mostly concour with Mr Gibby, even though I still think even the Scarlet, as it is RAW-based (is there a chance you will be able to shoot directly in 1080p and 720p HD unlike the RedOne?), won't be that far from its bigger sister (which is a good thing), thus it won't fit the ENG biz.

By the way I see things, the tapeless workflow might be an even bigger stopper: as Mr Gibby pointed out, TV editors can edit RED material - but I hardly see journalists going around with hard-drives (payed by the broadcaster?) and the camera companies who work in the field paying for laptop for their camera assistant.

As long as we won't get a dispendable tapeless format, tape will be the leader in TV work. Or at least, these are my two cents.

I see Gavin has rightly brought up the proposed (not finalized) straight to RGB option with the DSMC cameras. Obviously that would be a major plus for shooting short turnaround television projects - certain non-hardlined EFP, ENG, etc.

On your second point these are my thoughts:
The overwhelming majority of small, medium, large, and gigantic news and non-hardlined EFP production entities in the USA now have non-linear editing capability, have complete non-linear workflows, and do not use any tape in the process. Sony XDCAM and Panasonic P2 camera systems - none of which use tape, now dominate the ENG workplace in the USA - and beyond. That's not to say small news and non-hardlined EFP production houses don't still use some tape-based camera systems. But progressively they are giving way to camera systems that use discs (Sony) and cards (Panasonic and some Sony). If this tapeless workflow in ENG and non-hardlined EFP trend hasn't hit your area of Europe yet - rest assure it will soon.

How does this apply to a potential DSMC camera that can shoot RGB in a file format that can be instantly ingested into a station or network's non-linear editing system? If the DSMC camera footage is RGB and shot to a CF card, which RED's mockups have shown CF slots in the cameras, then getting the footage into editing quickly is as easy as handing the editors the CF card - just as camera people currently do when they hand their editors an XDCAM disc or P2 card. In the TV portion of my career I've used more tape-based than I can even remember - but since I've switched to drive, CF, and disc based camera systems I've grown to seriously like and respect the field and post workflow. Initially I had the same questions and doubts you're expressing - but they soon went away. Keep in mind that beyond my camera work, I largely work as an executive producer, director, and DP - so my opinion on a tapeless workflow is filtered through all those functions too. I was also a linear systems editor for a large part of my career - but now I happily edit in my FCP studio for mid-sized to smaller projects - for larger productions I strictly produce and/or direct and leave the editing to our staff.

The beauty of the DSMC cameras beyond the above described workflow, is that if you want to for longer format programming, you can shoot 3k RAW and have the flexibility and potentially higher production values, or at the flip of a switch shoot RGB, or DSLR quality still photos.

Again, let's wait until the final tech specs are announced for the DSMC (and the other new RED cameras), and early shipping models are field tested, before jumping to any firm conclusion on what the new cameras can or can't be used for. RED has said all along that their goal with the new cameras is modularity, flexibility, and thus broad utility. IMO they will achieve that...

 

[morgan_moore]

Morgan,

I see the mistaken notion on this thread that the only way you will be able to get stills from a DSMC is to pull them from motion footage –

This is not a mistaken notion but a desire of what I want from future technology

Im currently shooting basically 5d (motion) in one hand and D3 (stills) in the other

I happen to prefer the D3 for stills for various personal reasons irrelevant to this thread - I could shoot those stills on the 5d but swapping over and de rigging is a PITA

So I could shoot with one existing technology, the 5d, in both modes, OK my 5d footage is not red good but its OK for someone at my level in motion mode - the stills grabbed are cr*p of course forcing a second take or an assistant to shoot over my shoulder with the D3

But what I really want is to aquire sharp stills from my footage

This opens possibilities of exact framing and timing between the two media

For example you could create a print advert and do a motion version where that still image from the advert comes to life on the web etc

You could do a motion piece (at a low res like 720) where the motion freezframes and is then zoomed into

You could also start to create stuff on the web where the user, say viewing a motion piece can pause and zoom in on a product in the motion

For ENG you could film someone (say walking on a red carpet - shooting some rapids or jumping from an airplane) and then extract decent stills for magazines and be creating footage at the same time - a single take is all you get !

I have a personal interest in remote cameras (surfboard mount for example) integrating the technology here is very interesting to 'roll' for the session and then get motion and stills

If the next Reds are designed just to switch from one to the other this is interesting but most likely remain just interesting to stills photographers with thier lens investments in other systems especially when one considers that those systems are very mature and developed and producing amazing results right now and for FF35 (which is imprtant IMO for stills) very reasonably priced, with a massive range of reasonably priced glass avaialble

if RED cant produce both I dont think they really have a USP that would force me to change from my nikon technology that I am happy with and some future motion DSLR which will probably sort the current issues with the 5d

--------------

Board cam : creating theses took multiple sessions using the D90 with many technical challenges most of which have not yet been overcome!

Boardcam still image:
http://www.beachfeature.com/web/bea...&SJR=at35opykauaj&SJID=73491&SHID=0&noclick=0
Boardcam Motion :
http://www.vimeo.com/2014174

I want to extract the first from the second and the second to be good !

S

 

[Steve Gibby]

Yes, I've understood all that long before you posted it. I own two Canon 5D cameras and use them regularly. I also own three RED One cameras and use them regularly. I've pulled some amazingly good stills from RED One footage, in fact I regularly do that, so yes, it can be done under certain circumstances. That said, I'll look forward to doing the mobile television programs and stills work I do with one single, good at both mediums, camera system - and hopefully the DSMC will be it.

If I know I'm going to be pulling stills from RED One, I adjust the resolution, frame rate, RC quality, and shutter speed accordingly. Don't assume that all footage shot with RED is in the much discussed on the board narrative profile: 23.98, 180 degree shutter, with its inherent judder and motion blur. A huge amount of footage shot with RED is in higher frame rates and shutter speeds, shooting high motion subject matter - sports, adventure travel, wildlife, etc. Frames pulled from such footage are crisp and clean.

The preliminary DSMC motion portion specs are for much higher frame rate and shutter speed capabilities. If those are in the final specs, then pulling crisp high motion subject frames for the footage will be even much easier than we currently do with RED One.

IMO the DSMC motion portion will be head and shoulders above the motion capabilities of the 5D - or any other stills/motion combo camera on the market - absolutely no comparison. Go back and read my earlier post containing Jim Jannard's extensive still photo background, and his comments that the target for the DSMC wasn't to make a camera that would just do motion and stills OK - but one that would excel at both. I have no doubt that RED will succeed at that.

Again, let's wait until the tech specs are finalized before drawing any hard conclusions on what the DSMC cameras can or can't do. Right now this discussion is mere speculation.

Here's another thing to think about:
With the probable clock speed of the new DSMC camera line of cameras, there just may be a possibility to shoot certain subject matter and camera profiles simultaneously in a combination of motion and stills mode - shooting 1080p RGB, full pixel RAW stills - all at once. I'm not saying that will be the case - but again a lot of routine functions in the tech world were once deemed "impossible".

My best advice would be to keep an open mind, and let's see what the final tech specs of the DSMC line reveal.

Hope this helps...

 

[morgan_moore]

I think you posted a cross me edtiing my post.

Anyway.

Im very excited with my mind wide open - and hope it all works - I just have not seen how yet and dont think a few clips from Annie L et al. in very controlled multitake environments persuade me

S

 

[Stephen Williams]

REDOne can shoot 4k @ 30hz. Epic FF35 can shoot 4k @ 150hz. It's been 2-3 years.
.

Hi Gavin,

Red One's original spec was 4k @ 60 fps, Epic FF35 @ 150 is still only an on paper spec. Subject to change....

Stephen

 

[Steve Gibby]

Sam Morgan Moore,

I just saw your edits and the longboard surfing examples you posted. Cool stuff. You're talking to the right person here. I was on the worldwide ASP WCT television coverage crew (all stops) for several years as a director and cameraman. I also covered surfing worldwide for about 14 years on other pro tours, ASP WQS, HSA, Bud Pro, PSAA, and many others. I've been shooting action sports, including surfing, for over three decades - in motion film (Super 16 and 16mm), video (3/4", Betacam, Digi Beta, then all digital formats), and 35mm stills of surfing since 1969. A good example of a recent television surfing television production was the 2007 ASP WCT Pipeline Masters, where I served as a field producer, director, DP and cinematographer, providing and directing all three RED One cameras (air, in-water, long lens land). I've shot almost every famous surfer and surf break in the world - most of them many times.

POV shots on a longboard are ones I achieved clear back in the early mid-1990's - only I took it even one step further - a custom plexiglass armature suspended from hard mounting plugs under the board's nose, that held a tiny digital video camera out in front of the nose of the board, thus getting the very end of the board, with sometimes toes curled over - in a moving shot.

BTW - I believe I saw that your footage was shot in Cornwall - I'd guess around Newquay. I had the pleasure to do surfing television production at Newquay on several occasions when I was working on the TV crew for the ASP WQS tour. Newquay didn't produce that great of waves for us, but the events were way fun, and the trips to the chipper were relished! I have some relatives in Wales (Gibby is a Welsh name - in fact so are Morgan and Williams), so after the Newquay events I always went up to Pembrokshire to hang out for a while.

As you might guess, for my action sports and adventure travel TV programs, and their companion magazine articles and web site profiles, I'm highly interested in getting good motion (for TV) and good stills (for magazines and web) form the same small, mobile, capable, affordable camera system - so that me and my crews don't have to carry separate motion and stills camera systems everywhere. I believe the new RED DSMC cameras will solve that conundrum nicely. We shall see...

There are a ton of people in the action sports industry who are keeping a close eye on the DSMC and 2/3" Scarlet cameras - with good reason. If the tech specs pan out as indicated, the DSMC and Scarlet cameras may very well have a huge impact on that industry.

Action sports are just one genre and niche in the imaging industry. I think many other imaging genres may be positively affected by the DSMC cameras. We'll see...

IMO there are some very cool possibilities ahead...

 

[morgan_moore]

Indeed Newquay and the Locale, Im only going for small waves right now due to the board snapping inertia of the rig (sea and sea dive housing)

Lets hope this machine pans out

S

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Hi Gavin,

Red One's original spec was 4k @ 60 fps, Epic FF35 @ 150 is still only an on paper spec. Subject to change....

Stephen

But is that a sensor limitation or a redcode compression limitation?

The original plan I believe was that all 4k footage would have to be piped through the RAW port uncompressed. I think 60fps was a feature which got axed along with the RAW port. This time around they're planning from the start to use REDCode alone which I imagine lets them give better specification estimates. 60 ->150 would actually fit Moore's law more accurately and give even more credence to 300 being the next next generation.

 

[Joseph Ward]

Here's another thing to think about:
With the probable clock speed of the new DSMC camera line of cameras, there just may be a possibility to shoot certain subject matter and camera profiles simultaneously in a combination of motion and stills mode - shooting 1080p RGB, full pixel RAW stills - all at once. I'm not saying that will be the case - but again a lot of routine functions in the tech world were once deemed "impossible".

My best advice would be to keep an open mind, and let's see what the final tech specs of the DSMC line reveal.

Hope this helps...

Is that possible? That would be awesome! Someone can have a LIVE Feed RGB and Still RAW at the same time. Don't even mention IR or Stereoscopic/HDR capable added to that equation. :drool5:

 

[Jannard]

Hi Gavin,

Red One's original spec was 4k @ 60 fps, Epic FF35 @ 150 is still only an on paper spec. Subject to change....

Stephen

The RED ONE spec of 4K @ 60fps was for the Uncompressed output. We never got any confirmed orders for that module.

Published specs for EPIC FF35 are 6K at 100fps, 5K at 125fps and 4K at 150fps. These can be recorded to CF. Since you brought it up.

Jim

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Is that possible? That would be awesome! Someone can have a LIVE Feed RGB and Still RAW at the same time. Don't even mention IR or Stereoscopic/HDR capable added to that equation. :drool5:

Of course that's possible. That's how the REDOne works. You're monitoring an RGB signal sent to the view finder or LCD while recording RAW. For stills I'm sure there'll be an RGB/RAW simultaneous mode. It's pretty much standard on all SLRs now.

However I imagine you can't record both as video as you would probably over tax all the internal buses trying to pipe through two streams of data simultaneously.

 

[Steve Gibby]

I think those who've posted on this thread will be very interested in a new thread started by Jarred last night:

http://205.234.135.241/forum/showthread.php?t=34014

Jarred's still frame shot using the new Mysterium X sensor in his RED One is excellent...

What Jim said in his post #12 on that thread should bring big smiles to most posters on our thread here:

His quote - "Can anyone say DSMC?"

Things are getting way interesting around here...

 

[christopher witzke]

yes they are!