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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

REDRAY Comments

Thanks Justin, I never saw that post by Jarred.

Hopefully we can move to GPU hardware assisted for both .Red encoding and .R3D debayering.

I'm still trying to get my head around working with 4k DPX or OpenEXR files and how that will impact the workflow and system performance for a 4k Finish.
 
Nick Shaw said:
EXRs are certainly useful within workflows, but for deliverable I would say they are not so useful. Unclamped float does not have any real meaning for a display device. The normal practice would be to pass through a display targeted LUT which compresses or clips values above 1.0. At this point EXRs have no benefit over TIFF or DPX. In fact in the 0-1 range a 16 bit TIFF or DPX has more precision than a 16 bit EXR.
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Ok. thanks for that! Haven't used exr's for final step (pre encoding of dvp) just would have thought that it could have been a smart format...


Using quictimes still seems like a practical move for final encoding for many redusers, though.
4k 16 bit dpx /tiff (82 mb/frame) is not practily accessible for many users I know.
 
As I posted a while ago, we did some tests with a lab for a film-out, and 10 bit uncompressed QT delivers the same quality than DPX, without any gamma issue.
 
roryhinds said:
2k film finishing is the norm and we have the tools that can handle 4k finishing but they are expensive and need to handle an awful lot of data compared to 2k that is why only a handful of films get finished in 4k.

But now with REDRay and ODEMAX the demand for a 4K finish is a real reality but how do we handle this data throughput without some help from something like a RedRocket to work in a native file format that is as good as OpenEXR that we can render VFX shot to and do the complete post in and still move files around quickly without grinding to a stand still.
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You are correct that 2K has been the norm for feature film finish. The biggest bottleneck has been the use of Visual Effects which as you know, many VFX facilities struggle just to get 2K shots out. Having said that, more and more VFX facilities and post houses doing the DI are making the shift towards 4K finishes.

Many methods however, already work in proxies that point their scripts or color nodes to the original material for final conform. I'd love to see Nuke for instance, take advantage of using the RedRocket card in their final render pipeline. This would be amazing. Certainly DI finishes in 2K, can easily point their decision lists back to the source material, as many of the mattes and powerwindows are soft and the color correction is transferable, if in fact the 2Ks were derived (debayered) in the same way the 4K conform material would be.
 
Andy_K said:
1. REDCODEC used in at least in 1st RED camera is nothing more than JPEG2000- everyone can prove it by taking any .r3d file (before RED started encrypting them) and loading to ffmpeg. Before encryption ffmpeg was able decode RED files with its JPEG2000 decoder (not any special RED decoder). It was also possible to striped RED headers and decode pure JPEG2000 part in any JPEG2000 decoder. Not sure also were wikipedia is wrong- maybe RED should correct it, if there are any misleading information there, or ask to remove whole page if it's SO WRONG.

2. This clip was used only as reference to get an idea what represents "mastering quality". I never said .RED formats is AVC with .RED extension/container.

3. My clients actually love to work with me, because I have big experience and wide knowledge about all codecs/formats out there.

4. If my post were wrong than RED could correct them, instead YOU locked my profile.

5. I think I understand now that REDRAY is just a home player for 4K content (like Blu-ray player) and has not much to do with mastering quality, represented by eg. DCP standard.

6. What are the PSNR levels for this 20Mbit encodes- 40, 45, 50, 55dB?
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Give it a rest fellah... you have no standing on this forum.
 
Mathias Rauen said:
As an end user interested in highest quality movie watching, this whole REDray + ODEMAX system sounds very interesting to me. I do have 2 worries about the DRM, though. Generally, I don't like the "rent" model, I like to buy/own my favorite movies and store them on a big NAS. So here are my biggest worries:

(1) The internal 1GB harddisk might be useful for caching the downloads. But there's no way it's anywhere near big enough for building a movie collection. No single harddisk is likely to be ever big enough for that. Also it's not protected from hardware failure (e.g. RAID) in any way, so it could break down and lose all data. So will RR support playing back DRM protected movies from my own (self-built) NAS?

(2) With DVD and Blu-Ray I have the guarantee that I will be able to playback the movies "forever". There's no danger whatsoever of me ever losing this ability (at least as long as I rip the movies and back them up properly). Let's imagine ODEMAX takes off and I buy maybe 500 movies and store them on my NAS. Let's further imagine that a few years later for whatever funny reason ODEMAX goes bye-bye. What would happen to the movies I bought in that case? Would I still be able to play them back, even though the ODEMAX network is gone? Or is an online connection necessary for playback, even if the movies are fully bought, downloaded and stored on my NAS? I don't see me investing big bugs into a system if I have to fear that my new-bought movie collection may disappear into thin air at some point in the future.

Thanks!
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1. Your movies, and the ODEMAX license that authorizes it to play on your player can of course be offloaded to external storage and re-ingested later.

2. Movies purchased for home or personal use, (non-theatrical) will be licensed in perpetuity. They are yours. They are however licensed to your player, or group of players. Licenses can be transferred within your account to other players, as previous ones are decommissioned. And yes, even if an asteroid hit ODEMAX and all its network datacenters, you can still play what you've purchased, 'offline'. If you're offline, you just won't be able to buy new movies or take advantage of free material.
 
Jon Farhat said:
You are correct that 2K has been the norm for feature film finish. The biggest bottleneck has been the use of Visual Effects which as you know, many VFX facilities struggle just to get 2K shots out. Having said that, more and more VFX facilities and post houses doing the DI are making the shift towards 4K finishes.

Many methods however, already work in proxies that point their scripts or color nodes to the original material for final conform. I'd love to see Nuke for instance, take advantage of using the RedRocket card in their final render pipeline. This would be amazing. Certainly DI finishes in 2K, can easily point their decision lists back to the source material, as many of the mattes and powerwindows are soft and the color correction is transferable, if in fact the 2Ks were derived (debayered) in the same way the 4K conform material would be.
Click to expand...

Just a side note: Usually in a nuke comp a few layers might be r3d the rest will usually be Computer generated stuff. So the Rocket in nuke will only speed things part of things up... a small part. But you are right about VFX and post being the bottle neck, Simply posting something in 4k instead of 2k demands more than four times the budget. Cluster/ network renders will slow down tremendously just as the work has to be so much more detailed. Not many producers are so far willing to accept getting less than a quarter of the VFX work done for their budget. Network speed, CPU power and VFX artistry has sadly not had the same rapid development and price cuts as the sensors has had lately, it's that simple.
 
Jon Farhat said:
I'd love to see Nuke for instance, take advantage of using the RedRocket card in their final render pipeline. This would be amazing.
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Nuke already can use the RED Rocket. However because of Nuke's architecture, and what the Rocket is optimised for, it does not speed up a render as much as one might hope. Also big facilities will have render farms, and are unlikely to put a Rocket in every machine in the farm.
 
Andrew_HD said:
Well- RED may be great team, but currently there is nothing more efficient than still being developed h265 codec, add to this fact that REDCODEC used in cameras is nothing that special neither, so they would have to spent years (as they are small team) to come up with something which would be way better than h265. This would have to be way better to create mastering quality at 20Mbits- as I said- you would get Nobel prize for such a achievement :)

10mbits for 4K - heh...fine for streaming.
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Andrew

Why spew this vitriolic stuff? I've been in the business of creating imaging for 25 years for feature films and I have to say, the difference between h.264 and REDRAY leaps off the screen, in REDRAY's favor. You obviously are talking about something you haven't seen side by side.

Play fair.
j.
 
Andrew_HD said:
Well- RED may be great team, but currently there is nothing more efficient than still being developed h265 codec, add to this fact that REDCODEC used in cameras is nothing that special neither, so they would have to spent years (as they are small team) to come up with something which would be way better than h265. This would have to be way better to create mastering quality at 20Mbits- as I said- you would get Nobel prize for such a achievement :)

10mbits for 4K - heh...fine for streaming.
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Wow, and I presume you have seen RED codec output in order to pass judgement? This REDRAY/ODEMAX announcement must have really pushed some buttons....considering you have made 17 posts since 2007...
 
Nick Shaw said:
Nuke already can use the RED Rocket. However because of Nuke's architecture, and what the Rocket is optimised for, it does not speed up a render as much as one might hope. Also big facilities will have render farms, and are unlikely to put a Rocket in every machine in the farm.
Click to expand...

Thanks Nick

What I'm referring to is when you point back to the original R3Ds and then debayer to 4K, saving that step for the final render so one could work in a 2K pipeline up to that point. Obviously depending on the articulation of the roto involved, or elements used, this might be an issue. Totally understand that the Rocket will not speed up rendering of the Nuke project. Simply to allow the R3D to 4K to be done as needed, and only on the frames needed, rather than debayering to 4K of the entire takes and storing them on a network before it's determined what of the clips need to be used.

Also, 're-conforms' at the DI stage to upscale a 2K DI to a 4K DI.
 
Jon Farhat said:
We will reach Australia from the first day of launch.
j.
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That is awesome news Jon. I was watching a few trailers on the Apple site last night and was struck, as usual, by the number of really, really interesting looking movies out there that we will simply NEVER see in a cinema in Australia (benefitted as we are my the entire output of Hollywood's crap tent-pole production line). ODEMAX, RedRay, RED codec and Crimson promise the potential of small, boutique cinemas showing truly independent content in 4k without interference from the Studios. Personally, I can't wait.
 
Redray and ODEMAX will definitely create a revolutionary distribution platform that will help independent content but where in the file formats accepted is 2K left or why 1080 only in MP4. Still many non fiction features films and some short features are not shot in 4k. How could documentaries, just as any other example of independent productions, benefit from this distribution alternative if the .RED benefits plus encryption and DRM are just provided for 4k content.

2K is not relevant for me but I have seen it become a transitional resolution for people that want to exhibit their work in the "digital cinema" realm. At least in small festivals numbers are growing of filmmakers convinced that Blu-ray is not enough nor is HDCAM for screening their work.
 
Last edited:
How to show off the codec without giving out the codec :

How to show off the codec without giving out the codec :

Jon,

How about doing a little demo of .RED for the users here to see for themselves ?

Here is what I would do:

Take a 1K window out of a 4K media file.
Compress this with .RED at 6 megabits.
Compress with x264 at 6 megabits.
Decompress both to uncompressed files.
Compress both of the 'stepped on' but now uncompressed with 100 megabit x264, or better yet a lossless codec.
Publish links to these here, so the world can see.

So, no need for the public to have the special decode hardware or even the codec.
How does that sound ?
Thank you!





Jon Farhat said:
Thanks Nick

What I'm referring to is when you point back to the original R3Ds and then debayer to 4K, saving that step for the final render so one could work in a 2K pipeline up to that point. Obviously depending on the articulation of the roto involved, or elements used, this might be an issue. Totally understand that the Rocket will not speed up rendering of the Nuke project. Simply to allow the R3D to 4K to be done as needed, and only on the frames needed, rather than debayering to 4K of the entire takes and storing them on a network before it's determined what of the clips need to be used.

Also, 're-conforms' at the DI stage to upscale a 2K DI to a 4K DI.
Click to expand...
 
Les Dittert said:
Jon,

How about doing a little demo of .RED for the users here to see for themselves ?

Here is what I would do:

Take a 1K window out of a 4K media file.
Compress this with .RED at 6 megabits.
Compress with x264 at 6 megabits.
Decompress both to uncompressed files.
Compress both of the 'stepped on' but now uncompressed with 100 megabit x264, or better yet a lossless codec.
Publish links to these here, so the world can see.

So, no need for the public to have the special decode hardware or even the codec.
How does that sound ?
Thank you!
Click to expand...

Remember, Jon doesn't have anything to do with the .RED Codec or the Compression so that is an unfair request for him.
 
Jarred Land said:
Remember, Jon doesn't have anything to do with the .RED Codec or the Compression so that is an unfair request for him.
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Should he be asking You then...;) Heh Heh Heh

P.s just a idea but could Jon have a [Red Team] Tag like the Red team so we can find his posts easier?
 
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