REDRAY Comments

[Paul Ellington]

That was our original concept remember.. but as much as a lens is a lens is a lens, unfortunately polarized laser light going through the lens the opposite way through camera lenses ( specially coated ones ) provided to not work so well.

Any chance more of the 50mm RPP's will become available if they are no longer being used for the projector?

Best wishes.

- E

 

[Stivan Widick]

..One of my antiques...

Nice one, Mike! You'll have to come by some time so I can show off my NASA Amigas!

 

[Jarred Land]

[Another slightly different perspective of the RedRay event Friday.]

Phil Holland wrote a comprehensive take of Friday's presentation, so I'm not going to touch any of the technical aspects of what's going on. Besides, I shouldn't. Not my wheelhouse. If you use the word "codec" more than once or twice a day, this might not be all that interesting for you.

There's one thing that kind gets left out of some of these reviews, and maybe it's because it's harder to print on a spec sheet.

After LOOM ended, the lights went up, and I heard a voice to my right. "What do you guys think? See what we've been doing in our little world?" I didn't know him by face, but recognized him from earlier events. [Turns out: Ted]

What I also recognized in his face was an expression that I've come to think of as "REDFace."

[No, I don't expect that to catch on. It's a terribly uninspired nickname.]

I think I first noticed REDface on Jim at the Scarlet event or maybe it was the DSMC event? Jarred has a pretty terminal case of REDface as well. In case you weren't there, you've probably seen REDface in other contexts. It's the same face your loved ones have when they watch you open -that- gift they picked out for you. The gift that they KNOW they fucking nailed. The one they've been sitting on for MONTHS and eagerly awaiting the day they can see your face when YOU see it.

It's infectious when people are enthusiastic about the things that they're engaged in. I went to an IATSE event a few weeks ago when they showed some 48fps content, and discussed new compression codecs (that's the second time I'm using that word today, now I'm done with it. If anyone asks me what H.264 is I'm going to shrug and do a dance) and the pending problems with bandwidth and the limitations of DCP, etc. It was interesting, but I also kinda wanted to slit my throat a little.

[Not ear to ear, just ear to chin.]

These guys are just so damned excited to share what they've been working on you can tell it just KILLS them to sit on it.

It's not a "WOO HOO we're gonna fucking kill [company] or AW YEAH we're gonna be PRINTING money" motivation which is so popular and played out for some industries. It's more of a childlike (but not childish) "We made something cool and we can't wait for you to see it." which is a hard thing to hold onto as an adult, and harder still to create in other adults.

I dig it very much.

Very touching note thanks Phil.. Glad you noticed it I thought it was just me

Truly though.. we are just happy to have been invited to the party. Well I guess we weren't really invited to the party.. we kinda crashed it. But instead of kicking us out some of you let us stay and we will always be grateful for that.

 

[Chase M. Wrenn]

Well I just got back from Red Studios Hollywood after viewing a little REDRAY projection demonstration put on by Hugo and his team.

Interesting stuff. The Red Laser Projector prototype was down due to a laser malfunction (remember prototype), but we did view the material on a 4K Sony Projector.

We saw both up-scaled .RED 1080p content encoded at 4K as well as 4K finished content in the form of LOOM. Red has a 40' projection screen and one thing that really stood out to me was how good the up-scaled content looked on the big screen. Hugo played two cartoons and both of those had some hard edges, diagonal, and curved lines. You could see where the resolution was lacking in the details like fur, but it looked pretty decent. And more importantly you couldn't see the .RED codec falling apart at all. Very impressive.

I've now seen LOOM projected at 4K via the laser projector and a traditional bulb projector. I can confirm that the colors are indeed more vibrant and truer on the laser projector versus what we saw today. This is due to a few factors such as light falloff and the nature of bulb based projection effecting the color saturation and contrast of the image. This is certainly one of things that excites me about laser projection. A lot of "that stuff" goes away. LOOM itself has some very difficult lighting conditions that are traditionally difficult for codecs like h.264 to handle. The bedroom in the short is lit very low key and on the .RED encoded material you can not only see subtle dark gradients, but also fine skin detail. It looks damn nice.

Ted popped in at the end for a little Q&A as well (even after teaching Reducation all day). We discussed a bit about ODEMAX and some interesting points were brought up during the conversation. One thing I'm curious about is potentially having a rating system for 4K material. I wonder what's possible on that front.

Other tidbits. The REDRAY was also hooked up to an 84" LG 4K monitor via one HDMI, which does indeed support 4K at 30 fps.

The laser projector itself scales in projection distance and screen size based on the lenses and laser package you choose. Red is developing special lenses for the new laser projectors. These new lenses are designed to minimize aberrations and are not capture lenses.


Really what I took from this is how unreal .RED looks projected. I've seen it in laser and bulb form now and I have to say it's really amazing.

Was there as well, and totally agree with everything Phil has to say. There are still some facts regarding Odemax we're looking forward to hearing...guess we'll have to wait til release. The compression was impressive.

 

[Ketch Rossi]

Hey Phil glad you got to see it sorry I had to run to the airport.

One correction in your review.. There is no bundle.. the REDRAY is built into the Projector.. you can't get the projector without it, RR is physically inside it with the projector processor. The box you saw today is a stand alone device meant for other displays.

And this is exactly why I order one asap as it became available, despite the fact that we'll of course also order both the Home version and the Large Venue Projectors with the RR in them... As the Red Ray (stand Alone) is meant to go on our 4k panel, even so I haven't yet decided which one to go with it...

 

[Steven Caesare]

Hope both projectors have a 'short throw' option.

HD was set up with standard 30 deg field of view. Imax is set for 100-110 degrees.
You don't buy a big honkin bad ass projector to watch a little box image across the room.

My only projector at the moment is a TDC Stereovivid 116 3D slide projector with .4 'short throw' lenses.
Simple fact is...shorter throw brighter image.

I second this. My current projector throws a 10' wide picture from 12.5 feet away... I'd love to be able to do this with the Red laser projector.

People want big pictures if they go to the trouble of installation that a projector/ceiling-mount/screen requires... but not everybody has a 25 deep room to make it happen (or the ceiling height to avoid that being problematic for obstructions such as couches and people's heads in the light path).

A lens with a reasonably wide zoom range accommodating the short end of the spectrum is most welcome...

-sc

 

[Steven Caesare]

Many of us were lucky enough to see a protoype of the Red Laser (utilizing a prototype of the .RED codec) personally at NAB. RED used it to project "LOOM" in 2k in 3D on a 40 or 50' screen (unfortunately there were engineering issues that prevented RED from screening it in 4K in 3D at that time). Nonethless, in a word, the 2K 3D was AMAZING. And, it is even more amazing to now learn from Jarred that LOOM was screened using NOT the full 2.5 MB/s of the .RED code ... but at 1.5MB/s! I have no doubts that the 4K projectors will be "game changers" ... like everything else from RED.

For the sake of accuracy:

The screen in the theater on the NAB show floor where Loom was being played via the RED laser projector was about 15-20' wide, not 40-50'. It was reasonably bright at this size (given that 3D polarization glasses cuts light output in half). It was mentioned that multiple laser pumps can be ganged together with a single projector head to increase brightness. It looked great, and that was even without the imminent upgrade they were working on for the unit.

The separate RedUser party event at the Tropicana had a 40' wide screen, but Loom was not exhibited there nor was it a Red projector... it was a commercial 4K unit, I think a Christie, if memory serves.

-sc

 

[Steven Caesare]

Yes, I've read these rumors many times on AVS, from people who are supposed to be "reliable sources." I wanted to find out for sure, and I'll correct the bad information. Again, for the record, I've read this thread from start to finish, although I'm sure I missed some things. As a former teacher, I think it's important to "do my homework."

My questions were in no way intended as criticisms of Red, but perhaps a thread devoted more to the home theater enthusiast, or just those who are interested in the home version of the laser, might be more appropriate for questions such as mine. Those of you who know Red well could avoid it, and keep your blood pressure down. It's bound to be full of flame-worthy misinformation and criticism.

If I can, though, I have one more question for those of you who may bridge that ugly gap between content producer and home theater enthusiast: how does the Red laser compare to other, more traditional projectors from the likes of JVC, Sony, Sharp and Panasonic, in terms of native contrast? That's my frame of reference, since I've owned some $40,000 worth of them over the last few years. I'm not looking for test numbers, just a few subjective observations from people who've seen them. I'd love to hear comparative impressions from colorists and serious shooters.

Then I'll go away for a while, or wait for a more appropriate thread to spring up.

Joseph, I thought the tone of your post was fine, and I appreciate you remaining "calm" in the face of some replies. As a fellow AVS'er I understand the obsessiveness... er... "concern", about contrast.

I saw the RED projector at NAB back in April. There were some constraint's in critical judgment: the theater was not completely blacked out (safety concerns, and it was a portable temporary setup). There was, as I recall, also a small light source (exit sign, etc) inside.

Additionally, the thing is admittedly not yet finished. They were hoping to get a hardware/firmware upgrade for it that added simultaneous 4k for each eye (it was 2K at the time), and 10 bit color, rather than 8. They also suggested that work was in progress to eliminate some more ghosting from the polarized 3D system. Although we never saw the actual unit doing the projection, the display unit just outside the theater had a standard Red Pro Prime 50mm lens on it, which as we know is not ideal for projection use (and is being replaced on production units). Additionally it was running from a pre-production RedRay player with a beta codec.

I say all of that to give the unit a fair shake.

All of that having been said, RED wasn't afraid to show some torture-test material on it, Loom is quite dark and contrasty. I thought it looked darn good. The nature of 3D is that you get some crosstalk which affects contrast... and that's all I had to judge by, but I thought it looked pretty amazing. Colors popped, and blanks, while not quite inky (again in that environment), looked pretty darn good. And no hint of "laser speckle" I could see.

The general consensus is that it's laser-illuminated LCOS, so there's likelihood that the same issues technical issues that face other LCOS implementations will need to be dealt with here, but I suspect the nature of the laser illumination may actually help many of those. And given that JVC is able to post 6-digit contrast ratios gives me high hopes for what's possible once the Red boys pull this thing out of the oven.

I hope that helps answer your question some.

Welcome to the forum.

-sc

 

[Elsie N]

Whoops, got a bit of a scare when Odemax disappeared from the thread title, but content is still here...

I've been hoping for an explanation of why this happened, but since there hasn't been one I will just invent one for my own personal reality. My guess is that ODEMAX is being split out completely from RDC and all legal ties may be cut as well. ITBT, then it would follow that ODEMAX is courting any and all 4k wrapped content and does not want to be perceived as only being useable by RED camera generated content providers. Also ITBT, I think it is a very good move by whomever really is behind the ODEMAX concept in regards to funding and being stake holders.

 

[Steve L]

I've been hoping for an explanation of why this happened, but since there hasn't been one I will just invent one for my own personal reality. My guess is that ODEMAX is being split out completely from RDC and all legal ties may be cut as well. ITBT, then it would follow that ODEMAX is courting any and all 4k wrapped content and does not want to be perceived as only being useable by RED camera generated content providers. Also ITBT, I think it is a very good move by whomever really is behind the ODEMAX concept in regards to funding and being stake holders.

Or there will be additional content distributors besides Odemax. Or perhaps a whitebox version of Odemax with a different financial arrangement for big studios.

On another note, past talk of 4k, Apple TV, and special codecs in the media, as well as Jim Jannard stating he had spoke with Jobs on various occasions, points to the Redray codec being used in an Apple 4k tv. 4k panel proliferation and Redray release may enable this.

So, will our Redray and RRencode codec ship on December 21st?

 

[Elsie N]

Or there will be additional content distributors besides Odemax. Or perhaps a whitebox version of Odemax with a different financial arrangement for big studios.

On another note, past talk of 4k, Apple TV, and special codecs in the media, as well as Jim Jannard stating he had spoke with Jobs on various occasions, points to the Redray codec being used in an Apple 4k tv. 4k panel proliferation and Redray release may enable this.

So, will our Redray and RRencode codec ship on December 21st?

In re: the Apple TV possibility, I think that would require a sizeable payment from Apple's 100 billion dollar cash reserve to make ODEMAX content viewable on something other than the REDRay Player. REDRay Player and REDRay Projector sales will be a cash cow for a company that may be the sole, or at least biggest, backer of the .RED playback formatted ODEMAX.

But I do wish we knew what is going on because I've made assumptions of my business going forward and would like to know of any changes that might affect those assumptions.

 

[Joseph Clark]

Joseph, I thought the tone of your post was fine, and I appreciate you remaining "calm" in the face of some replies. As a fellow AVS'er I understand the obsessiveness... er... "concern", about contrast.

I saw the RED projector at NAB back in April. There were some constraint's in critical judgment: the theater was not completely blacked out (safety concerns, and it was a portable temporary setup). There was, as I recall, also a small light source (exit sign, etc) inside.

Additionally, the thing is admittedly not yet finished. They were hoping to get a hardware/firmware upgrade for it that added simultaneous 4k for each eye (it was 2K at the time), and 10 bit color, rather than 8. They also suggested that work was in progress to eliminate some more ghosting from the polarized 3D system. Although we never saw the actual unit doing the projection, the display unit just outside the theater had a standard Red Pro Prime 50mm lens on it, which as we know is not ideal for projection use (and is being replaced on production units). Additionally it was running from a pre-production RedRay player with a beta codec.

I say all of that to give the unit a fair shake.

All of that having been said, RED wasn't afraid to show some torture-test material on it, Loom is quite dark and contrasty. I thought it looked darn good. The nature of 3D is that you get some crosstalk which affects contrast... and that's all I had to judge by, but I thought it looked pretty amazing. Colors popped, and blanks, while not quite inky (again in that environment), looked pretty darn good. And no hint of "laser speckle" I could see.

The general consensus is that it's laser-illuminated LCOS, so there's likelihood that the same issues technical issues that face other LCOS implementations will need to be dealt with here, but I suspect the nature of the laser illumination may actually help many of those. And given that JVC is able to post 6-digit contrast ratios gives me high hopes for what's possible once the Red boys pull this thing out of the oven.

I hope that helps answer your question some.

Welcome to the forum.

-sc

Yes, it does help. Thanks. Contrast and ghosting are the two biggest concerns for any new 3D projector I might buy. I'm determined to see the Red for myself, but I get really hungry for information. Patience is not my strong suit.

If the Red can't beat the Epson 6010 I currently have in my home theater, in both those areas, there's no reason for me to consider it. I've owned or viewed (extensively) many other 3D displays, so I have a pretty good idea what's going to satisfy me. The first two generations of JVC 3D projectors (which I owned) were tremendous in terms of contrast, but ghosting made them unacceptable. I'm really pulling for the Red to blow these other displays away.

 

[Steve L]

In re: the Apple TV possibility, I think that would require a sizeable payment from Apple's 100 billion dollar cash reserve to make ODEMAX content viewable on something other than the REDRay Player. REDRay Player and REDRay Projector sales will be a cash cow for a company that may be the sole, or at least biggest, backer of the .RED playback formatted ODEMAX.

An order from Apple for the license and the silicon would do more for the Redray format than anything else. Hopefully Apple would be content to buy the license and not own it.

Sure sounds like the Redray codec and silicon is the most valuable ip since it is the only thing really capable of near streaming high quality 4k content through the internet, at least the internet as it is known to most of the US.

 

[Larry Kelly]

So, the projector is actually a LCOS projector and not a scanning laser as Red first described?

 

[Steven Caesare]

It was never described that way by RED.

-sc

 

[Pedro Faerstein]

Is it possible to connect redray to this kind of projector? http://pro.sony.com/bbsc/ssr/mkt-digitalcinema/mkt-digitalcinemaprojectionsystems/product-SRXR320P/ Just finished DPing my first epic movie. I'd like to share this news with the director. There is one theatre here in Rio with 4K projection so far. Hopefully this will chage soon with the red projectors. But for now, I'd like to know if it's a easy as it seems to see the movie in it's 4k glory here in Rio (Buy redray and hook it up to this projector).

Thanks,

Pedro

 

[Roberto Lequeux]

sorry guys.. Seems like a bit of a disconnect. There is no water cooling in the projector head.. and there are really, really big fans that move alot of air silently, there are no small fans. (...)

I was hoping to hear something like this. Because silence is the blacks.

It is hard to keep small fans quiet, that's why Epic has variable speeds. When it comes to big fans you need moderately high speeds to hear them from a few feet away, and the highest frequency will be lower.

Knowing how much Jarred loves seeing distributed cooling on motherboards, I bet the Projector's (and the built-in REDRAY's) case is a piece of art, allowing for organized and balanced airflow over all components. Design and knowing the different temperature ranges of all your boards enables designers to significantly lower the necessary RPM. Slow airflow is obviously quieter... With low RPMs, medium to larger fans become inaudible just a few feet from a good case. 120mm and larger fans can really make this a piece of cake with good large heatsinks. But 80mm fans at pretty low RPM, or even 60mm fans at -really- low RPM can become inaudible at 8-9 feet with a good case. Top or rear exhaust also helps.

If there is one thing I am never going to be worried about with RED, is cooling. It is a given that they went all out. And those who really know about RED know that even the RED ONE was a tank under extreme weather conditions. Quite the contrary to "pop" belief; but we can't expect too much from teenagers.

Epic's cooling speaks of how cooling should be. A thing of beauty. And the Projector doesn't need to be small for HH -which makes everything easier.

So, if I were everyone else, I'd expect the world. Cause I'll bet my 0.02 that you will end up feeling fulfilled.

 

[Larry Kelly]

Actually it was described as a scanning laser projector with the benefits of CRT with inky blacks but the brightness that the laser brings to the table. This was early in the development and there were video interviews where it was described in this way.

 

[Wayne Morellini]

The .RED codec delivers pristine video and audio performance, so no need for a different audio codec.

We decode and hand off 7.1 Ch LPCM 24-bit 48KHz audio via an HDMI 1.3 cable to your AV Receiver.


Then the other codec we support is .MP4, meaning for audio that's the industry standard AAC codec.

OK Stuart, respectfully (you are still a great guy) let's get real. Before Red I was talking about how to do better compression ratios than redray dies, in forums people who are now at Red used to read (I would check where anybody got their ideas, mine started with advanced video conferencing compression in the 80's, the Intel codec (which I've forgotten due to health at the moment) that came from the original RCA digital TV project in 1984 that was taken over by Phillips, and Adams platform (though I did not find out how it worked, but summised how it could) that did video over 33.6kb/s line, and the intent of fractals) and aiming at ten+ times better compression again behind the scenes. And, I still find it hard to believe that it is as good as many people with aging eyesight that have had a few drinks in a darkened room say it is compared to uncompressed. It is one thing to match standard digital cinema compression quality, even Redcode, another lossless.

I've asked this years ago for the above reasons, how about random samples (truly random) of frames in full resolution redray compressed and uncompressed please? Some striped combination frames and statistical analysis of deviation from one another, would also help examination? I personally just want to flick back and forwards between frames to get an idea if it makes a big difference, and look to see if the original is more soothing. If the aim is to match red code instead, then some red code frames. If it is to match highly compressed (relatively compared to lossless) cinema frames then by all means use it as a marketing exercise and compare that. If it can truly match any of these levels I will be happy with it's performance at those ratio's, and it will hopefully convince a few others around here of what can be done.

Thanks.

 

[Wayne Morellini]

Redray in Windows Surface Table.

Redray in Windows Surface Table.

If we are going to be talking about the projector, there is one market with sakes as big as any mentioned, Windows/Mac etc Surface tables, instead of on of the washed out cheap home made ones, that do nit have enough resolution (8k is preferable).

Been keeping my eye out for cheaper surface tables for design, document editing and research. However, it is something every home could do with. I realised that if Redray was small and cheap enough, that a table could be made to take it. My patio table is just an open frame with a five foot glass on it unobstructed, and not expensive, and I think 7 foot versions are out there. Unlike many of the homemade surface tables, the laser projector allows people to sit at the table with their legs underneath, by mounting the projector centrally facing upwards, protected by a cone going to the edges). Using newer rear projection fails, such as 3m has for one example, can allow a high contrast saturated image in normal light. The web camera type systems used on DIY units would be affective. Going a step further a hing tilt mechanism can be used to tilt the frame, cone and projector up like a draughtsman work table. Tilting it up as a screen is possible angling the projector, which could be used for the draft table function also (but the surface becomes to high for normal seating). Of course, you can low profile the projection beneath 15cm. Hyena other cunning observation, is that the computer components can fit in the frame of the table (narrow form factors).

This would require a smaller 120 inch (200 inch blacked out) projector at around $2000, plus table and computer to get the penetration. However the projector would be gather sellable on it's own