Red Scarlet vs BMC

[Josh Snyder]

"Captain America" was primarily a Panavision Genesis show. All other cameras listed were used for specialty shots, like over cranks and occasional additional coverage.

True. Only shot or two. Well used though since I don't think no one catched these shots.

They grade similar (color-wise) in the extent that they have similar (not the same) dynamic range properties and both produce raw files. I wouldn't say they grade equally as well. That's an exaggeration.

For 2K delivery they actually resolve fairly differently after post processing even, but you do indeed get a cleaner and sharper image out of the Scarlet by a handsome amount. Remember we are talking about a 2.5K camera versus a 4K camera. 3K down-sampling off of Scarlet still produces a better 2K delivery than BMCC as well if 2K is your concern. It's a pixel design/sensor design thing. There is a large difference in ISO performance to me as well between the two cameras.

Again, actually using these cameras will help inform your opinion. Go and give them a try (or just download some raw files). With such strong opinions about a camera system it would be valuable to inform yourself by getting your hands on them.

If there's anything I can agree with you on Josh it's that the BMCC is a good value for the buck. However, it doesn't actually compare well to a better overall camera. Cost is one consideration, but as I said earlier, image quality should be the very first thing you look at.

Those were the words from guys that have graded both. I trust them more than someone who has only graded one be it RED or BMC. Have you graded BMC footage too?

The BMC looks really good in low light. Take a look at some clips from bmcuser. Haven't seen any comparison videos yet.

Scarlet is obviously better camera in all, but as the IQ is in the same level with these two cameras, one must decide if the better thought out features of Scarlet are worth the extra money and without a doubt the bigger loss in resale value (this doesn't matter if you have paying works waiting).

 

[Björn Benckert]

What this has to do with anything? I didn't mean you shouold buy cheap camera or that cameras like Alexa and EPIC aren't good investments for many. They are. But they are not good investments for one who are not going to use the camera in professional productions in (almost) daily basis.

Now could you tell us how Black Swan, Slumdog Millionaire, The Wrestler and The Hurt Locker would have been better if they had been shot with S35 sensor camera instead of S16 or 2/3 camera that they were shot with? When the next Oscar winning movie is shot with S16 you might want to contact the filmmakers and tell them how big of a mistake it was when they shot with outdated sensor size. If they tell you it was an artistic choice, remember to laugh at them. That will show em and maybe lesson learned and they wont use S16 size anymore (quotin RED user Scott Crawley).

In my opinion all those movies looked fantastic. But I'm just "to be consumer camera owner" so what do I know.

You are right there are some great films shot on cheap small format cameras especially a few years back. Von Triers "Dancer in the dark" (one of the best films I have ever seen) was shot on DV and so was "Festen" and "Idioterna" which are also great films. But I think if they would have been shot today, there would be no reason to shot them on anything less than a scarlet, as the scarlet cost is probably far less than what they paid for the DV cams that they used and I think it's quite obvious that the quality bar has been raised quite a bit the last couple of years.

The BMC delivers nice pictures in a small package but still I don't understand why you are so eager to tell us all that scarlet is not worth it's costs. From where I'm standing I think it's the best possible option in it's price range, Just as I think the new Gopro is the best in it's own category... and yes, the BMC would be a great option in it's price / weight class, especially a year a go when it was announced. But as it is, it's still not available so I do not see it as much of an option, if it becomes available I might buy one for my own private usage.

The scarlet on the other hand, is very much a professional camera and since it's built as it is it's also accepted on quite a few professional shoots. Where as the BMC will never be looked at in the same way. But of course there will be some great films made with it no doubt. But that comes second, as it will for sure be a camera used mostly by hobby shooters. So if you are off to shoot your vacation film or family reunion then spending several thousands of dollars on a bulky RED camera that needs a lot off additional gear is not vice at all. I really hope that nobody thats on a budget bought scarlets for such missions.


Another thing. what you write about resale value does not make much sense. Epic and scarlet has just got their price cuts, quite heavily no doubt. But do you not think the price for the BMC will fall as well as soon as they actually manage to get their cameras out, or release another model? Further more do you think RED will slice the price in half again any time soon? I do not think so. As they just lowered the price quite heavily, now is a great time to jump on board. To me it's more likely that the second hand prices will go up in the near future as there is no more 4k for 4k available. Sense both the battle tested R1's and BT scarlets are all gone.

 

[Jason L]

Captain America
Canon EOS 5D Mark II, Canon Lenses

Really? You know they only used that for one shot. It's usually in a situation where they know they can risk losing a cheaper camera. They also used it in Iron Man 2, but usually in 12 frame segments as part of coverage, where they know if the camera is lost in a stunt it's not really a big problem.

 

[Bob Gundu]

More detail until proven wrong.

Are you sure? I've been googling and all sites tell me Slumdog Millionaire and 127 hours were both shot mostly with Silicon Imaging SI-2K which has S16 size sensor.

My good friend was the assistant director on that film and let me tell you that over 95 percent of that film was shot on film.

 

[dennys bisogno]

I just had a epiphany!! the reason this thread is still gong if because of us and not "you know who"

Stop answering or posting... let "you know who" post 2-4 times in a row and ........ this thread will fade away..

Please stop...

PS: Like to first apologize for the actual act of posting as we speak :001_unsure:

 

[Jeffery Anderson]

"Captain America" was primarily a Panavision Genesis show. All other cameras listed were used for specialty shots, like over cranks and occasional additional coverage.

exactly, that's what most high speed shots are... just in reference to all the people that want high speed in the firmware updates(crazy huh?).

I'm just pointing out that Red Scarlet is a great value and to feel confident in shooting 1k RAW 3:1 and blowing it up.

 

[Jeffery Anderson]

"Captain America" was primarily a Panavision Genesis show. All other cameras listed were used for specialty shots, like over cranks and occasional additional coverage.

As for the Cameras being used... I high doubt that the Panavision Genesis is used for feature films anymore. The build is closer to a Broadcast camera, i.e. Sony F900, with 2/3" sensors. For what I've heard it was an Arri show.

Here are the cameras listed on IMDB:
Arri Alexa
Arriflex 235, Panavision Primo Lenses
Arriflex 435, Panavision Primo Lenses
Canon EOS 5D Mark II, Canon Lenses
Panavision Genesis HD Camera, Panavision Primo Lenses
Panavision Panaflex Millennium XL, Panavision Primo Lenses

 

[Jason L]

Actually the Genesis is somehow still getting use. Ha. Was on a feature earlier this year that was using two, and a recent studio film that used the Genesis was TED.

 

[Jesper Sichlau]

Recently a lot of films has been shot with a 16mm format (16mm/S16mm/2/3")

Moonrise Kingdom
The Rum Diary
The Black Swan
Narnia 3
The Hurt Locker
The Last king of Scotland
Avatar
The Wrestler
Benjamin Button
Zodiac
Collateral

 

[Jeffery Anderson]

Actually the Genesis is somehow still getting use. Ha. Was on a feature earlier this year that was using two, and a recent studio film that used the Genesis was TED.

Right I guess it is a super 35 sensor, similar to an Alexa... now I am interested in checking it out. Every time I've been to Panavision all I see is an Alexa or Epic("panavised").

 

[Peter Osinski]

vvv

 

[Josh Snyder]

Now this changes everything: http://philipbloom.net/2013/01/13/speedbooster/

BMC just went S35 and your lenses became faster and sharper.

 

[Kemalettin Sert]

Now this changes everything: http://philipbloom.net/2013/01/13/speedbooster/

BMC just went S35 and your lenses became faster and sharper.

sharper? its just one more glass and how people thinks it becomes sharper?

 

[Shervin Mandgaryan]

I'm weary of any sharpness claims... not too sure if meta bones has a good track record of putting some good quality glass into adapters; IQ has yet to be actually shown in tests.

 

[Mike P.]

sharper? its just one more glass and how people thinks it becomes sharper?

It's essentially like super sampled light. Craming more photons (converging more image) on to the same sized sensor to give more perceived resolving power. Basically the exact opposite of magnification (which blurs and magnifies aberrations). Like looking through opposite end of binoculars, the image looks smaller and conversely sharper.

That's the anecdotal theory, anyway. As Shervin said, no tests yet, but I'm inclined to believe it'll work a treat... Basically take a soft image (4k) and resize it to a smaller frame (2k); it looks sharper... This is the same as that, but from the optics side (makes me wonder why it wasn't done sooner)... That's also why it makes the lenses appear brighter as well (fstop is the same - so it'll be the same depth of field - but there's "more light" crammed into the same sensor.)

It's (anecdotal) science bro. It's "essentially" fud...err fact?

 

[Sam Goldwater]

For me there's no escaping the bizarre toy ergonomics of the BMCC. I'm a big fan of BMD, and for me it recently came down to a choice between a 2nd hand Scarlet and a new BMCC.. Even with the Metabones it would've been no contest.

 

[Shervin Mandgaryan]

Phillip Bloom also has a tendency to over-hype something that hasn't actually materialized yet... or something he's not actually got his hands on. I'm not alone in saying this and it's one of the main reasons why I don't read his blog anymore... it's just alot of "Look! OMG! This is going to change everything!".

 

[Josh Snyder]

Phillip Bloom also has a tendency to over-hype something that hasn't actually materialized yet... or something he's not actually got his hands on. I'm not alone in saying this and it's one of the main reasons why I don't read his blog anymore... it's just alot of "Look! OMG! This is going to change everything!".

Bloom has a prototype. There's prototype reviews on other sites too like nofilmschool and eoshd and they seem to come in same conclusions.

So now if you want FF it's better to use S35 size camera and Speedbooster adapter than FF camera. You get same but sharper FF image and you gain about one more stop in speed

 

[Chris Santucci]

I cannot imagine working with a 2.3 crop camera.

Ditto. Imagine trying to pull focus with a lens that has maybe an inch of focus throw (on the barrel?) I can't.

 

[Noah Yuan-Vogel]

Phillip Bloom also has a tendency to over-hype something that hasn't actually materialized yet... or something he's not actually got his hands on. I'm not alone in saying this and it's one of the main reasons why I don't read his blog anymore... it's just alot of "Look! OMG! This is going to change everything!".

Hasn't materialized? Are you talking about the speed booster? They were in stock January 14th, a couple hours after several reviews came out about them on Jan 13th. I bought one as soon as it was available and it arrived January 18th, so they are definitely available. I have the EF-NEX speedbooster sitting in front of me right now on my FS700.

Now the BMC on the other hand, which is the primary subject of this thread, is not particularly available considering it was supposed to be widely available many months ago...