Red Scarlet vs BMC

[Eric Santiago]

Just found out that Demarcus Ware is playing hurt.

How bout them Cowboys

 

[Scott Crawley]

Jarred bought BMC from the first person who received it at bmcuser.com. I don't remember exactly what bonuses the guy got besides the 3k$ it costed, but If I remember correctly Jarred gave him 4000$ worth of Scarlet accessories and discount from Scarlet brain. Someone with better memory can correct me. That should tell everything about BMCC

That tells you more about Jarred than it does about the camera. If you think that his interest in the BMCC is some sort of proof that he prefers it to his own camera for reasons of superiority then your logic is flawed and you assume too much. It's a lot like stating that District 9 is proof that Peter Jackson is not a visionary film maker and he is only able to make films with enormous budgets. that shit is jacked up. It so defies reason and logic that I am beginning to take the troll theory seriously.

 

[Nick Morrison]

Josh does the rolling shutter and huge file sizes on BMC bother you? Also, don't you love high frame rates? How are you going to shoot slow-mo on BMC? (you just bought one right?).

Do you own any lenses? What kinda glass you looking into to pair up with your BMC?

 

[Jeffrey Loewe]

Jarred bought BMC from the first person who received it at bmcuser.com. I don't remember exactly what bonuses the guy got besides the 3k$ it costed, but If I remember correctly Jarred gave him 4000$ worth of Scarlet accessories and discount from Scarlet brain. Someone with better memory can correct me. That should tell everything about BMC.

Good luck selling your Scalret brain for 8k$ next year when people are offering it for 5,5k$ now. This applies to everyone who bought new Scarlet brain this year. You bought yours when the sale was on for few weeks after the camera was released in december 2011? Then you might save more, but it doesn't change fact that Scarlet brain resale value has dropped over 40% under a year. By the way it's not looking too good for you either, something that your fellow RED users are also telling you (your price is too high and that's why you havent' sold it): http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?88178-Feeler-FS-RED-Scarlet-X-256

This is RED SCarlet vs BMC thread btw.

Thanks for sharing that. I wasn't aware. Although to me that just shows he was curious to get his hands on it to see how it compared.

I'm not worried you clearly didn't read. I said I was in no hurry. I waited I got my price.

Yes but this is a RED forum... If you want it to be a Scarlet vs BMC thread then make it one. But right now everything is here say. You haven't said anything knowledgeable since you started posting in this thread.

 

[Björn Benckert]

Scarlet brain was 9700$ this year before the price drop. I've seen Scarlets going for 5500$ here. That's 43% drop.

You can easily cut BMC footage with Alexa, EPIC or Scarlet. There are already reports of this at BMC forum.

MFT version of BMC will take (pretty much) any lens.

Or use BMC as A-cam. Oscar winning movies are still been shot with S16 so the larger sensor of BMC shouldn't be a problem.

Scarlet is obviously better learning tool if you are sure you will end up shooting/owning EPIC in upcoming years. Learning the tricks and workflows of new digital camera doesn't take a long though and I wouldn't buy a camera from brand X just because I might update to their more expensive model in the future. Who knows if RED's new cameras will be totally different from Scarlet and EPIC. The biggest problem in that kind of thinking is that in few years the digital cinema market will be full of cameras that produce great 4K S35 size image under 5k$. Are you going to buy EPIC then or are you going to buy a camera that costs under 5k$? If you take mindset that you will use RED cameras forever it's a mistake. You really want to keep open mind in times like this.

You criticize BMD because their camera was released in beta state just like RED cameras are released? You criticize that BMD have had troubles starting the mass production in time? Are you, as a RED user bringing that arguement to the table? For example, how long exactly it took from RED to start mass producing Scarlet after the announcement? Scarlet was RED's 3rd camera btw, this is BMD's first camera. It's negative thing that company produces more than one type of product? Good arguements here all around. BMC is revolutoinary camera to say the least. Real digital cinema grade image for 3k$.

Now you are just being silly and using very, very flawed arguements. We don't use iPhones because all the aspects of its image are bad, now. BMC has great picture now. That's why BMC is great digital cinema camera and iPhone is not. Did you get the diffenrece? BMC has great picture now, iPhone doesn't.

Sensor size matters in some productions, but not on most. That's why those Oscar winning movies are still being shot with S16 and most Scarlet users were eagerly waiting 2/3 Scarlet an year ago (once again smaller than BMC's sensor). Other cameras that are coming in next few years will be just better and cheaper.

This is getting funny...

Could you post a list of really successful films shot on 16mm sensor or 16mm film that came out during the 2 last years? But then again, there has been films shot on DV thats been up for oscars but still I do not want to by a DV cam...

Yes, on the BMC forum they will, just as people do here, tell you that their cameras are fantastic, able to match anything and so on, take all forum comments with a grain of salt, even mine. You can match one sized sensor with another by using ND's different f stops and focal lengths.. but for a fact scarlet 4k goes next to a R1 or epic in 4k... to the verge of having picture quality close enough to fool a microscope. I personally right now, while writing this, render a flame comp where some layers where shot with a R1 and some layers with our epic, same light same tripod and I only see difference when I key as the epic was set to 1:3. same result would come with the scarlet.

Regarding delivery dates etc, RED never told a single person when or on what date they would deliver any of their cameras. Actually it has always been the opposite, they told us and everyone else that the delivery dates where not to count on. That's a big difference from what BM has done. I actually ordered a BMC for a job this summer. I would for sure have delivery before 1st of august, sales person promised me a camera for the shooting date etc... still I have not seen it. Red always state that it's beta, the BMC camera is a consumer product, just as a canon SLR or such. Basically I do not think the beta and no delivery stuff goes well among private people that invest their household money.

Also BMC does not have good picture now, as they can not deliver the cameras. And the picture they try to deliver will as I wrote soon be outdated by cheaper SLR's. But yes, if RED would have released a cheap ass 2/3 scarlet 3 years ago it would have been great. But 1 year ago it would have been not so great, it would in fact just been as good/bad as the BMC. (probably with a better iso, workflow etc but still).

But you are right better cameras will come. Epic is good now but it will for sure be worth much in a few years time, then I hope that I and other redusers have made enough money to be able to pick the next big thing. But I do not think that will be a consumer camera, as what I do with cameras and pictures is how I make my living I do not think that I will be using anything even close to the range of consumer equipment. On the contrary I think the camera we use a few years from now probably cost a lot more than an epic. Sensors will improve, we will get light fields, depth maths and so on. RED only got things started, but so far they have had their ship on a pretty straight course. If something else comes that is better, faster etc then thats where we go, a not available pocket camera for less, is none of that.

 

[Josh Snyder]

Josh, there was a reason why RED decided to kill the scarlet 3k camera.

Yes, because it was too problematic to make (their words).

well when your sensor is 2/3 you can actually use 16mm glass loads of it as well as 2/3 glass, when you sensor is bigger it becomes much more difficult and outright impossible with certain lenses unless you are fine with the peep hole effect. If they had made the sensor 2/3" I would have like the camera even more but due to the issues I will have adapting my current 16mm and 2/3" glass I do not have the drive to acquire it.

to sum up, larger lenses on smaller sensor not ideal but works vs larger sensor with smaller glass does not always tend to work. Plus it's much better to use glass designed for your sensor size rather than using a fisheye as a wide.

Two very different beasts and thus that comparison to a concept camera that never made it to market due to terminal flaws does not fit at all to me.

josh read my post on sensor sizes, 2/3 vs random new size between 2/3 and M4/3 is not the same thing at all, in fact you are just making a good argument for why people who like 16mm should get the digital bolex.

get a BMC and then tell us how easy it is to use... until then you have no idea what you are saying, perhaps it's time to sit back listen and learn from all the very talented people on here who are politely taking their time(which is worth a lot) to explain these things to you. It's an invaluable resource that you are squandering.

Um what? That must be one of the most ridigulous things I've read here. Check the bmcuser.com to find out the coverages of (cinema) lenses for BMC camera.

I expect that is true largely because the folks who were all for the small sensor, fixed lens and lower resolution have either moved on or accepted and embraced what is rather than dwell upon what was. That is why you no longer hear a lot of sobbing about it. There is a lesson there somewhere...

You can think it like that or we can look it like it was; RED said there will be no 2/3 size Scarlet period. That's that so after few weeks there was really nothing to bitch about because 2/3 version was never coming. The lessons was to read the fine print more carefully "Everything in life changes… including our camera specs and delivery dates". Most "would have been Scarlet owners" went and bought something else and some waited and bought the current Scarlet.

RED went from "3K for 3K$" to "4K for 10k$". Now BMC came with "3K for 3K$" and it looks like those "would have been [3K for 3K$] Scarlet owners" didn't go anywhere. They are here and embracing the archivement that BMD was able to do. It's the camera they were waiting for the price they were waiting.

I do not think you should buy any cinema camera today if you do not have the money back within a couple of months. Or you buy it for pleasure / learning which also has some sort of value.

I think you should buy cheap and good camera if you aren't working full time in professional productions IF it will not brake your bank. That's so you can start learning and wont lose big bucks when selling the camera in 2013 or 2014 when updating to a new and better one. Small and low risk investment is the key.

 

[Stephen Matthews]

Josh you put some 16mm glass on the bmc and show me, you keep comparing to the 2/3 scarlet which had a whole slew of lenses it could have used that would not be bastardized to do so. Or stop referring to the 2/3 scarlet as an example, as to me the demand was a camera people could use their old 16mm glass with perfectly where the Bmc can not do that.

A 14mm lens is not the same as a 24mm or 17mm, but to get the equivalent focal length at the sensor size you will have to use those ranges 8mm-16mm, not exactly ideal in todays market and hence the reason why in my mind if you are going to make a smaller sensor make it the size of an existing format with appropriately sized and speced lenses.

and yes you can use plenty of lenses on the camera heck you can use just about any lens on any camera with a series of adapter and such but through compromises it ends up being far what it could be on the appropriate sensor size, now is this a deal breaker, no but you need to be realistic about this. Perhaps just drop your "why complain about the sensor size when the scarlet was 2/3"" because 2/3" is an industry standard with plenty of cheap fast lens that cover a very wide range, unlike a new format in between another not widely used format in cinema and that is M4/3".

As I said try and work with us rather than against as we are only trying to help and with every post you push another person away from ever wanting to help you as you just have with me on this last post, and I know "I don't want your ridigulous help anyways" that is fine.

Troll on

 

[dennys bisogno]

I like to create a trust fund for raising money for Josh to buy a BMCC and perhaps make this thread go away!

UPDATE: I am here to report we have raise $1.93 dollars - Cmon! we can do it!

:closed2ur0:

 

[Bob Gundu]

Josh, what is your agenda here? People here have been more than patient with your declarations. This is not a discussion anymore. I am honestly beginning to question your sincerity with your responses. What exactly are you trying to prove?

 

[Björn Benckert]

I think you should buy cheap and good camera if you aren't working full time in professional productions IF it will not brake your bank. That's so you can start learning and wont lose big bucks when selling the camera in 2013 or 2014 when updating to a new and better one. Small and low risk investment is the key.

Our epic was paid off in full on it's first job and that was done in less than a months time back in october 2011...
Since then it has been securing jobs and bringing in rental fees. As renting cameras and doing production stuff is not our core business (we do post and motion control stuff) the camera has not had much usage. I would say it has averaged about 5-10 days rental/usage days per month. But with lenses, DIT and such the profit has been close to the cost of a DMC camera per day... So trolljoshi how do you like to eat them apples...

 

[Josh Snyder]

That tells you more about Jarred than it does about the camera. If you think that his interest in the BMCC is some sort of proof that he prefers it to his own camera for reasons of superiority then your logic is flawed and you assume too much. It's a lot like stating that District 9 is proof that Peter Jackson is not a visionary film maker and he is only able to make films with enormous budgets. that shit is jacked up. It so defies reason and logic that I am beginning to take the troll theory seriously.

It's clear that he liked what he saw (his words) and had to get the camera asap so the RED team can inspect in detail what BMD has done and what parts have been used (not his words but obviously he didn't pay that much just so he can star shooting with it). It's not like he's starting camera forums here and there. bmcuser.com is the only forum he has started besides RED brands and dvxuser.com (which he bought?).

Josh does the rolling shutter and huge file sizes on BMC bother you? Also, don't you love high frame rates? How are you going to shoot slow-mo on BMC? (you just bought one right?).

Do you own any lenses? What kinda glass you looking into to pair up with your BMC?

Hello there, I don't own BMC yet and I haven't ordered it yet. RED cameras have rolling shutter problems too (although smaller). It can be worked out in shots it might bother with good planning and execution. Big file sizes does bother a little, but SSD's are pretty cheap (BMC can be used with any SSD so there's no air in SSD prices). So the file sizes bother as much as it would with RED cameras. I love high frame rates and it's one minus that BMC doesn't do them. But for 3k$ these are the fastest you can get (with IQ like this). Scarlet doesn't shoot high frame rates with full sensor either and that's why I stopped thinking about getting it. Why I'm looking at BMC is that it costs so much less and offers similar cinema grade image quality. EPIC would have those needed higher frame rates, but the price is also very premium. I rather use BMC and rent a camera when high frame rates are needed, waiting NAB and 2013/2014 models. High frame rates at 4K are waiting all of us around the corner.

I own Canon L and non-L glass. Most projects will do just fine with Canon glass, but for some projects I might be looking to rent some Zeiss glass.

This is getting funny...

Could you post a list of really successful films shot on 16mm sensor or 16mm film that came out during the 2 last years? But then again, there has been films shot on DV thats been up for oscars but still I do not want to by a DV cam...

For the starters:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0947798/
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0887912/
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1010048/

Two of them won Oscar for best picture too (Black Swan was nominated for best picture also but didn't win).

Yes, on the BMC forum they will, just as people do here, tell you that their cameras are fantastic, able to match anything and so on, take all forum comments with a grain of salt, even mine. You can match one sized sensor with another by using ND's different f stops and focal lengths.. but for a fact scarlet 4k goes next to a R1 or epic in 4k... to the verge of having picture quality close enough to fool a microscope. I personally right now, while writing this, render a flame comp where some layers where shot with a R1 and some layers with our epic, same light same tripod and I only see difference when I key as the epic was set to 1:3. same result would come with the scarlet.

There are RED owners at bmcuser too and the community seems to be very friendly there. People seem to look the cameras without any bias. Some people have posted top notch RED grades here and BMC grades at bmcuser and they say that both can be graded equally well.

Regarding delivery dates etc, RED never told a single person when or on what date they would deliver any of their cameras. Actually it has always been the opposite, they told us and everyone else that the delivery dates where not to count on. That's a big difference from what BM has done. I actually ordered a BMC for a job this summer. I would for sure have delivery before 1st of august, sales person promised me a camera for the shooting date etc... still I have not seen it. Red always state that it's beta, the BMC camera is a consumer product, just as a canon SLR or such. Basically I do not think the beta and no delivery stuff goes well among private people that invest their household money.

RED doesn't give the exact release date, but they will tell you the camera comes next spring or before the end of the year and boom 2 years later no camera to be seen (don't remember anymore if it actually took 2 years but something like that). Canons etc are sold as is with no feature updates coming (planned). BMC was sold as beta same way Scarlet was/is. New features and updates are coming when people ask them. Just what RED does. This is what I also prefer.

Problems in the production and delay was downer, but this is their first camera after all...

Also BMC does not have good picture now, as they can not deliver the cameras. And the picture they try to deliver will as I wrote soon be outdated by cheaper SLR's. But yes, if RED would have released a cheap ass 2/3 scarlet 3 years ago it would have been great. But 1 year ago it would have been not so great, it would in fact just been as good/bad as the BMC. (probably with a better iso, workflow etc but still).

There are many people with BMC's already.

The picture is at the same level with Scarlet's image for 2K delivery which is the current standard and will be for quite some time. When BMC's picture is outdated then is Scarlets too. That's why cheap BMC is better option. It's better to get cheap camera and replace it with another cheap camera since camera technology changes so fast. I would bet that BMC is coming with 4K S35 before DSLR's shoot 4K RAW with BMC's image qualities (next year rumor has it). But it doesn't matter if they don't because I haven't invested a lot of money to their system. I can sell the BMC and get another model from another brand. No big deal. I don't care who comes with the next big thing.

Like I said before, only a year ago people were still eagerly waiting for 2/3 Scarlet. That camera was very wanted from indie filmmakers to big productions.

Can you tell me what was missing from those three Oscar winning movies I linked that were shot with S16 and one with 2/3 digital camera? How S35 size sensor would have made those movies better?

But you are right better cameras will come. Epic is good now but it will for sure be worth much in a few years time, then I hope that I and other redusers have made enough money to be able to pick the next big thing. But I do not think that will be a consumer camera, as what I do with cameras and pictures is how I make my living I do not think that I will be using anything even close to the range of consumer equipment. On the contrary I think the camera we use a few years from now probably cost a lot more than an epic. Sensors will improve, we will get light fields, depth maths and so on. RED only got things started, but so far they have had their ship on a pretty straight course. If something else comes that is better, faster etc then thats where we go, a not available pocket camera for less, is none of that.

But the thing is that cheap cameras are cathing with the specs faster and faster. The next big thing in the future is only next big thing for 12 months max no matter how much it costs before cheap cameras uses similar components. By the way using word "consumer" next to the BMC doesn't make it any lesser of a camera.

 

[dennys bisogno]

Our epic was paid off in full on it's first job and that was done in less than a months time back in october 2011...
Since then it has been securing jobs and bringing in rental fees. As renting cameras and doing production stuff is not our core business (we do post and motion control stuff) the camera has not had much usage. I would say it has averaged about 5-10 days rental/usage days per month. But with lenses, DIT and such the profit has been close to the cost of a DMC camera per day... So trolljoshi how do you like to eat them apples...

+1 :yesnod:

 

[Jeffery Anderson]

Could you post a list of really successful films shot on 16mm sensor or 16mm film that came out during the 2 last years?

The Wrestler
Arriflex 416, Zeiss Ultra 16 and Angenieux Optimo Lenses

Captain America
Canon EOS 5D Mark II, Canon Lenses

Black Swan
Arriflex 16 SR3, Zeiss Ultra 16 Lenses
Arriflex 416, Zeiss Ultra 16 Lenses
Canon EOS 5D Mark II, Canon L-Series Lenses
Canon EOS 7D, Canon L-Series Lenses

All this is relative to the fact that even the Red Scarlet shooting RAW 1kWS@120fps or 1kHD@90fps, is better than 5d mk2 compressed h.264 compression.

 

[Josh Snyder]

...

There are very few lenses that will not work with BMC. MFT mount is coming next. And no it won't make the lenses suck just like changing from PL mount to Canon mount on EPIC wont.

The Wrestler
Arriflex 416, Zeiss Ultra 16 and Angenieux Optimo Lenses

Captain America
Canon EOS 5D Mark II, Canon Lenses

Black Swan
Arriflex 16 SR3, Zeiss Ultra 16 Lenses
Arriflex 416, Zeiss Ultra 16 Lenses
Canon EOS 5D Mark II, Canon L-Series Lenses
Canon EOS 7D, Canon L-Series Lenses

Forgot Wrestler. BTW I didn't heard anyone saying that they spotted the parts from Black Swan that were shot with 5D or 7D before it was announced that these cameras were used and the scenes where they were used. Don't get me wrong, BMC and Scarlet are both in a very different level when it comes to IQ.

All this is relative to the fact that even the Red Scarlet shooting RAW 1kWS@120fps or 1kHD@90fps, is better than 5d mk2 compressed h.264 compression.

But Gopro 720p/120fps is better than 1K Scarlet. Well it depends how you look at it. More detail, but with less DR and DOF.

 

[Josh Snyder]

Our epic was paid off in full on it's first job and that was done in less than a months time back in october 2011...
Since then it has been securing jobs and bringing in rental fees. As renting cameras and doing production stuff is not our core business (we do post and motion control stuff) the camera has not had much usage. I would say it has averaged about 5-10 days rental/usage days per month. But with lenses, DIT and such the profit has been close to the cost of a DMC camera per day... So trolljoshi how do you like to eat them apples...

What this has to do with anything? I didn't mean you shouold buy cheap camera or that cameras like Alexa and EPIC aren't good investments for many. They are. But they are not good investments for one who are not going to use the camera in professional productions in (almost) daily basis.

Now could you tell us how Black Swan, Slumdog Millionaire, The Wrestler and The Hurt Locker would have been better if they had been shot with S35 sensor camera instead of S16 or 2/3 camera that they were shot with? When the next Oscar winning movie is shot with S16 you might want to contact the filmmakers and tell them how big of a mistake it was when they shot with outdated sensor size. If they tell you it was an artistic choice, remember to laugh at them. That will show em and maybe lesson learned and they wont use S16 size anymore (quotin RED user Scott Crawley).

In my opinion all those movies looked fantastic. But I'm just "to be consumer camera owner" so what do I know.

 

[Jeffery Anderson]

But Gopro 720p/120fps is better than 1K Scarlet. Well it depends how you look at it. More detail, but with less DR and DOF.

It's definitely not. Wow!

Edited to Add: Slumdog Millionaire was shot on 35mm film

 

[Josh Snyder]

It's definitely not. Wow!

Edited to Add: Slumdog Millionaire was shot on 35mm film

More detail until proven wrong.

Are you sure? I've been googling and all sites tell me Slumdog Millionaire and 127 hours were both shot mostly with Silicon Imaging SI-2K which has S16 size sensor.

 

[M Most]

Captain America
Canon EOS 5D Mark II, Canon Lenses

"Captain America" was primarily a Panavision Genesis show. All other cameras listed were used for specialty shots, like over cranks and occasional additional coverage.

 

[Iain Philpott]

BMC v Scarlet. Interesting but I'd pick Scarlet every time. BMC v Scarlet v 1DC - now that is really interesting.........now I'm not so sure!

 

[Phil Holland]

Beat me to it Mr. Most.

Some people have posted top notch RED grades here and BMC grades at bmcuser and they say that both can be graded equally well.

The picture is at the same level with Scarlet's image for 2K delivery which is the current standard and will be for quite some time. When BMC's picture is outdated then is Scarlets too.

They grade similar (color-wise) in the extent that they have similar (not the same) dynamic range properties and both produce raw files. I wouldn't say they grade equally as well. That's an exaggeration.

For 2K delivery they actually resolve fairly differently after post processing even, but you do indeed get a cleaner and sharper image out of the Scarlet by a handsome amount. Remember we are talking about a 2.5K camera versus a 4K camera. 3K down-sampling off of Scarlet still produces a better 2K delivery than BMCC as well if 2K is your concern. It's a pixel design/sensor design thing. There is a large difference in ISO performance to me as well between the two cameras.

Again, actually using these cameras will help inform your opinion. Go and give them a try (or just download some raw files). With such strong opinions about a camera system it would be valuable to inform yourself by getting your hands on them.

If there's anything I can agree with you on Josh it's that the BMCC is a good value for the buck. However, it doesn't actually compare well to a better overall camera. Cost is one consideration, but as I said earlier, image quality should be the very first thing you look at.