Red Scarlet vs BMC

[Josh Snyder]

If you think the BMC is the best thing ever invented since sliced bread. Then that's great for you. However, I think most people around here do not, care much for a small sensor consumer pocket camera. They simply do not see it as the best possible option for what they do, or want to do. If that was the case they would all have sold their REDs and moved on getting a GH1's or such.

I haven't said BMC is the best. It just offers best value in the digital cinema market. Jarred didn't want BMC so badly because it sucks.

I love how "consumer" and "pocket camera" is thrown away here for a camera that offers at least similar quality image for 2K delivery as Scarlet. "GH1's and such" aren't even near the level of BMC, Scarlet and other cinema grade digital cameras.

Scarlet was supposed to be "3K for 3K$" with 2/3 sensor which is even smaller than BMC's sensor and people loved it. This forum was full of people who were eagerly waiting for 2/3 Scarlet and sensor size wasn't an issue at all. Now suddenly one year later it's huge deal breaker. Go figure. Some of the best (Oscar winning) movies have been shot with S16 in last few years. This was one of the things all RED users kept telling when sensor size was put in a negative light. Suddenly this fact is ignored now. That said, I think what you said was disrespectful for most people here at Scarlet forum.

 

[Björn Benckert]

You aren't? Resale value of Scarlet brain has gone down over 40% in less than a year.

Come on Josh, If the BMC were sold at any quantity close to the scarlet... or in a quantity so you could possibly buy one if you wanted to... Then do you not think that there would be a year old used BMC available for 40% less than retail? Also how many scarlets brains do you find for 4770USD... I have not seen a single one.

Then also take into account:
How little you can charge for your BMC if you would have one.... According to the "rent me app" the day rate for the BMC body (if it sells fro 3000USD) is about 100USD/day.
And since the sensor is so small it will not intercut well with epic or alexa or any such cameras as the sensor is so small, so if you use it as a b-cam it will just be a b-cam. In other words it would be a camera that does not hold up, a camera that you probably would need a good set of excuses for if you use it next to something that has a larger sensor. Not only that the BMC can not share the lenses with "real cinema cameras" where as the scarlet shooting next to the epic or alexa is a fully fledged B-cam, possible to hold the same lenses and delivers a good enough DOF, resolution, ISO DR etc.

A DP that buys into his own scarlet body will benefit in ways that a BMC owner never can. A scarlet DP / owner will learn the right skills, handling and workflow etc that is valid for the epic. So basically he does not only have a really good camera that he can bring to shoots and play around with in his free time, When he gets the big jobs and brings in rental gear, then he does not only have two camera heads, he will also be very confident around the epic and most likely any other new upcoming red cameras like the dragon to name one.

Jannard, Jarred and the rest of the RED team are very likely to deliver not only now but in also in the future. As making cameras is what they do... BM on the other hand has a lot of things going, But building cameras is quite far from their main activity... Also BM seem to have great difficulty to get their first model out, even though the camera that they have made it's far from being anything revolutionizing it's old allready before you buy it, as it's an very outdated sensor.

RED has proven over and over again to beat the giants not only in price but also at spec. RED makes their own sensors and they are revolutionizing the industry.... and yes they drop prices.... But if you think thats a bad thing then look at BM and see what they did with resolve pricing... In comparison BM biggest accomplishment has been to deliver signal converters, same as AJA and any other company in that field, BM has done so at a slightly lower quality and price... Still they need to prove they can get their small sensor camera out on the shelfs so people can buy it, if they do not get it out very very soon I think it's quite a loss for them as the BMC spec and price is soon to be out passed by far by regular SLR's.

Another thing, We got our epic. And I actually have done deals with scarlet owners so I let them have the epic body for a day if I later can have their scarlet body for two days. And by doing so I have an extra head when we need it. Now if a BMC owner would ask me to get the same deal.... well he would have much more difficulty to say the least... I do not even think I would rent him the camera, at least not for him to use on his own, as he would not know shit about how it works.

So for the above reasons the BMC is nothing. It's a tourist camera at best.

But sure, with your logic we should all use our Iphone's since they are low cost and sensor size does not matter and few generations from now they will have a smashingly good picture.... or maybe not.

 

[Bob Gundu]

Josh, there was a reason why RED decided to kill the scarlet 3k camera.

 

[Adam J. Craig]

Scarlet was supposed to be "3K for 3K$" with 2/3 sensor which is even smaller than BMC's sensor and people loved it. This forum was full of people who were eagerly waiting for 2/3 Scarlet and sensor size wasn't an issue at all. Now suddenly one year later it's huge deal breaker. Go figure.

He's got a point.

In the end, Josh, why bicker over the specs. Just buy a BMC and be happy.

 

[Adam J. Craig]

As far as costs go, I bet we (all of us scarlet owners) are going to be a bit peeved in about 2 years when the the technology in our cameras now, will be available for less than $5K... but hey, that's technology and we get the benefit now. All the more reason to go out and shoot that feature you've been thinking about.

 

[Stephen Matthews]

well when your sensor is 2/3 you can actually use 16mm glass loads of it as well as 2/3 glass, when you sensor is bigger it becomes much more difficult and outright impossible with certain lenses unless you are fine with the peep hole effect. If they had made the sensor 2/3" I would have like the camera even more but due to the issues I will have adapting my current 16mm and 2/3" glass I do not have the drive to acquire it.

to sum up, larger lenses on smaller sensor not ideal but works vs larger sensor with smaller glass does not always tend to work. Plus it's much better to use glass designed for your sensor size rather than using a fisheye as a wide.

Two very different beasts and thus that comparison to a concept camera that never made it to market due to terminal flaws does not fit at all to me.

 

[Jeffrey Loewe]

I haven't said BMC is the best. It just offers best value in the digital cinema market. Jarred didn't want BMC so badly because it sucks.

I love how "consumer" and "pocket camera" is thrown away here for a camera that offers at least similar quality image for 2K delivery as Scarlet. "GH1's and such" aren't even near the level of BMC, Scarlet and other cinema grade digital cameras.

Scarlet was supposed to be "3K for 3K$" with 2/3 sensor which is even smaller than BMC's sensor and people loved it. This forum was full of people who were eagerly waiting for 2/3 Scarlet and sensor size wasn't an issue at all. Now suddenly one year later it's huge deal breaker. Go figure. Some of the best (Oscar winning) movies have been shot with S16 in last few years. This was one of the things all RED users kept telling when sensor size was put in a negative light. Suddenly this fact is ignored now. That said, I think what you said was disrespectful for most people here at Scarlet forum.

I think Jarred just runs the communities. I'm not sure he owns it because of what he may or may not think of the camera itself. RED people have always welcomed more people to offer innovative products and technology. You're getting to the point where you're losing your legitimacy from having a standing argument to sort of looking foolish.

You don't have to sell us on the camera. To me personally you posting here continuously, simply seems like a cry for attention, and yourself within struggling with the BMCC as a real camera even for yourself. It seems like your trying to convince yourself it's even good enough. Why do you have to sell 10,000 other people on it who already have cinema cameras that provide a higher resolution to make a judgement call. Quit typing here and head over to B&H and place an order.

If your mind was already made you wouldn't even bother with the negativity and down talking of the Scarlet. Or sit here trying to convince all of us that there are a ton of people who prefer the image of the BMCC to the Scarlet or other RED's.

The 2/3 scarlet has been beat to death. I should call PETA on you soon. You seriously should win the award for beating the dead horse back to life in a Forum.

In regards to me selling my camera, I paid 9750 for it. I'm losing about $1750 on it. That is not nearly 40%. And it's paid off its worth.

Goodness sakes. Post relevant information on here. This is the RED board. Not the BMCC is better than RED board. I welcome other cameras but I come here to see real tests, information and gain knowledge not to see someone trying to sell themselves on a camera by getting a bunch of REDUSERS to jump on his bandwagon.

 

[Scott Crawley]

Scarlet was supposed to be "3K for 3K$" with 2/3 sensor which is even smaller than BMC's sensor and people loved it. This forum was full of people who were eagerly waiting for 2/3 Scarlet and sensor size wasn't an issue at all. Now suddenly one year later it's huge deal breaker. Go figure. Some of the best (Oscar winning) movies have been shot with S16 in last few years. This was one of the things all RED users kept telling when sensor size was put in a negative light. Suddenly this fact is ignored now. That said, I think what you said was disrespectful for most people here at Scarlet forum.

I expect that is true largely because the folks who were all for the small sensor, fixed lens and lower resolution have either moved on or accepted and embraced what is rather than dwell upon what was. That is why you no longer hear a lot of sobbing about it. There is a lesson there somewhere...

 

[Björn Benckert]

As far as costs go, I bet we (all of us scarlet owners) are going to be a bit peeved in about 2 years when the the technology in our cameras now, will be available for less than $5K... but hey, that's technology and we get the benefit now. All the more reason to go out and shoot that feature you've been thinking about.

I do not think you should buy any cinema camera today if you do not have the money back within a couple of months. Or you buy it for pleasure / learning which also has some sort of value.

 

[Bob Gundu]

Not really. I believe those that wanted it were more excited about a $3000 RED camera. The demographics seemed to suggest they were also new potential customers. I'm sure many of those people have indeed moved to the BMC. I'm not sure what the point of this thread is anymore. No one has to convince anyone to buy into any system. People have different businesses that have different needs. Some just have hobbies. No big deal. This forum used to be very informative and constructive. It's just odd for some people to participate in this forum about specific gear, for which they have no experience with. Comparing specs from a sales brochure is silly. Any gear can sing in the hands of a talented artist. So. it's a moot point to declare one camera better than another. I own a Scarlet, AF100, GH2, and D800. All of them quite remarkable for what they can achieve. I choose whats best for the job and quite frankly, the client's satisfaction trumps everything in the end. BM makes very cool products and I definitely would call the BMC pretty revolutionary. But I must also consider the workflow beyond the acquisition of the camera. I like what I'm able to do in post with Redcode and it plays nice with Davinici and most NLE now. I have my clients, I have my camera, I have my software, and I have Reduser to share my ideas and to learn new things. Lets move on.

He's got a point.

In the end, Josh, why bicker over the specs. Just buy a BMC and be happy.

 

[Scott Crawley]

LOL... For three years all we could do was read spec sheets and speculate. I guess we got used to that.

 

[dennys bisogno]

He's got a point.

In the end, Josh, why bicker over the specs. Just buy a BMC and be happy.

I like to create a trust fund for raising money for Josh to buy a BMCC and perhaps make this thread go away!

 

[Josh Snyder]

Come on Josh, If the BMC were sold at any quantity close to the scarlet... or in a quantity so you could possibly buy one if you wanted to... Then do you not think that there would be a year old used BMC available for 40% less than retail? Also how many scarlets brains do you find for 4770USD... I have not seen a single one.

Then also take into account:
How little you can charge for your BMC if you would have one.... According to the "rent me app" the day rate for the BMC body (if it sells fro 3000USD) is about 100USD/day.
And since the sensor is so small it will not intercut well with epic or alexa or any such cameras as the sensor is so small, so if you use it as a b-cam it will just be a b-cam. In other words it would be a camera that does not hold up, a camera that you probably would need a good set of excuses for if you use it next to something that has a larger sensor. Not only that the BMC can not share the lenses with "real cinema cameras" where as the scarlet shooting next to the epic or alexa is a fully fledged B-cam, possible to hold the same lenses and delivers a good enough DOF, resolution, ISO DR etc.

And DP that buys into his own scarlet body will benefit in ways that a BMC owner never can. A scarlet DP / owner will learn the right skills, handling and workflow etc that is valid for the epic. So basically he does not only have a really good camera that he can bring to shoots and play around with in his spear time, When he gets the big jobs and brings in rental gear, then he does not only have two camera heads, he will also be very confident around the epic and most likely any other new upcoming red cameras like the dragon to name one.

Jannard, Jarred and the rest of the RED team are very likely to deliver not only now but in also in the future. As making cameras is what they do... BM on the other hand has a lot of things going, But building cameras is quite far from their main activity... Also BM seem to have great difficulty to get their first model out, even though the camera they made it's far from being anything revolutionizing.

RED has proven over and over again to beat the giants not only in price but also at spec. Where as BM biggest accomplishment has been to deliver signal converters, same as AJA and any one else at a slightly lower quality and price... Still they need to prove they can get their small sensor camera out on the shelfs, if they do not get it out very soon I think it's quite a loss for BM as the BMC spec and price is soon to be out passed by regular SLR's.

So for the above reasons the BMC is nothing. It's a tourist camera at best.

But sure, with your logic we should all use our Iphone's since they are low cost and sensor size does not matter and few generations from now they will have a smashingly good picture.... or maybe not...

Scarlet brain was 9700$ this year before the price drop. I've seen Scarlets going for 5500$ here. That's 43% drop.

You can easily cut BMC footage with Alexa, EPIC or Scarlet. There are already reports of this at BMC forum.

MFT version of BMC will take (pretty much) any lens.

Or use BMC as A-cam. Oscar winning movies are still been shot with S16 so the larger sensor of BMC shouldn't be a problem.

Scarlet is obviously better learning tool if you are sure you will end up shooting/owning EPIC in upcoming years. Learning the tricks and workflows of new digital camera doesn't take a long though and I wouldn't buy a camera from brand X just because I might update to their more expensive model in the future. Who knows if RED's new cameras will be totally different from Scarlet and EPIC. The biggest problem in that kind of thinking is that in few years the digital cinema market will be full of cameras that produce great 4K S35 size image under 5k$. Are you going to buy EPIC then or are you going to buy a camera that costs under 5k$? If you take mindset that you will use RED cameras forever it's a mistake. You really want to keep open mind in times like this.

You criticize BMD because their camera was released in beta state just like RED cameras are released? You criticize that BMD have had troubles starting the mass production in time? Are you, as a RED user bringing that arguement to the table? For example, how long exactly it took from RED to start mass producing Scarlet after the announcement? Scarlet was RED's 3rd camera btw, this is BMD's first camera. It's negative thing that company produces more than one type of product? Good arguements here all around. BMC is revolutoinary camera to say the least. Real digital cinema grade image for 3k$.

Now you are just being silly and using very, very flawed arguements. We don't use iPhones because all the aspects of its image are bad, now. BMC has great picture now. That's why BMC is great digital cinema camera and iPhone is not. Did you get the diffenrece? BMC has great picture now, iPhone doesn't.

Sensor size matters in some productions, but not on most. That's why those Oscar winning movies are still being shot with S16 and most Scarlet users were eagerly waiting 2/3 Scarlet an year ago (once again smaller than BMC's sensor). Other cameras that are coming in next few years will be just better and cheaper.

 

[Stephen Matthews]

josh read my post on sensor sizes, 2/3 vs random new size between 2/3 and M4/3 is not the same thing at all, in fact you are just making a good argument for why people who like 16mm should get the digital bolex.

get a BMC and then tell us how easy it is to use... until then you have no idea what you are saying, perhaps it's time to sit back listen and learn from all the very talented people on here who are politely taking their time(which is worth a lot) to explain these things to you. It's an invaluable resource that you are squandering.

 

[dennys bisogno]

I heard Peter Jackson is re-shooting the 2nd and 3rd Hobbit movies with BMCC. He is saving so much money, the movie tickets will be 40% discounted - Its going to be awesome!!!!!!

 

[Nick Morrison]

Josh, there was a reason why RED decided to kill the scarlet 3k camera.

Exactly.

 

[Eric Santiago]

I honestly think the Green Bay Packers are gonna tank on the first round.

I am not just saying that as a Bears fan but as a football fan.

When you don't have defense (well its sporadic) and you rarely execute consistent running plays, I just dont think Aaron "Discount Double-Check" Rodgers can cut the mustard.

Now if you want to talk about a disruptive force in the playoffs, lets talk Seattle Seahawks

Flame on, I can take the heat

 

[dennys bisogno]

I honestly think the Green Bay Packers are gonna tank on the first round.

I am not just saying that as a Bears fan but as a football fan.

When you don't have defense (well its sporadic) and you rarely execute consistent running plays, I just dont think Aaron "Discount Double-Check" Rodgers can cut the mustard.

Now if you want to talk about a disruptive force in the playoffs, lets talk Seattle Seahawks

Flame on, I can take the heat

:tongue_smilie:

 

[Scott Crawley]

Now you are just being silly and using very, very flawed arguements. We don't use iPhones because all the aspects of its image are bad, now. BMC has great picture now. That's why BMC is great digital cinema camera and iPhone is not. Did you get the diffenrece? BMC has great picture now, iPhone doesn't.

Sensor size matters in some productions, but not on most. That's why those Oscar winning movies are still being shot with S16 and most Scarlet users were eagerly waiting 2/3 Scarlet an year ago (once again smaller than BMC's sensor). Other cameras that are coming in next few years will be just better and cheaper.

iPhone can make great pictures... For a phone... For home videos, Facebook and the like but for cinema not so much.

There were no Scarlet users three years ago. It's a bit of a nitpick, but many of the folks who wanted the prototype Scarlet never became Scarlet users. Many who stayed and chose the production model chose a different camera with different capabilities because we have different priorities.

Josh the group that you are currently conversing with is not the same group that was here before. If you want to talk with some of those people, go to BMCC forums, 5D forums and the like. They have moved on. Maybe you should move on.

 

[Josh Snyder]

I think Jarred just runs the communities. I'm not sure he owns it because of what he may or may not think of the camera itself. RED people have always welcomed more people to offer innovative products and technology. You're getting to the point where you're losing your legitimacy from having a standing argument to sort of looking foolish.

You don't have to sell us on the camera. To me personally you posting here continuously, simply seems like a cry for attention, and yourself within struggling with the BMCC as a real camera even for yourself. It seems like your trying to convince yourself it's even good enough. Why do you have to sell 10,000 other people on it who already have cinema cameras that provide a higher resolution to make a judgement call. Quit typing here and head over to B&H and place an order.

If your mind was already made you wouldn't even bother with the negativity and down talking of the Scarlet. Or sit here trying to convince all of us that there are a ton of people who prefer the image of the BMCC to the Scarlet or other RED's.

The 2/3 scarlet has been beat to death. I should call PETA on you soon. You seriously should win the award for beating the dead horse back to life in a Forum.

In regards to me selling my camera, I paid 9750 for it. I'm losing about $1750 on it. That is not nearly 40%. And it's paid off its worth.

Goodness sakes. Post relevant information on here. This is the RED board. Not the BMCC is better than RED board. I welcome other cameras but I come here to see real tests, information and gain knowledge not to see someone trying to sell themselves on a camera by getting a bunch of REDUSERS to jump on his bandwagon.

Jarred bought BMC from the first person who received it at bmcuser.com. I don't remember exactly what bonuses the guy got besides the 3k$ it costed, but If I remember correctly Jarred gave him 4000$ worth of Scarlet accessories and discount from Scarlet brain. Someone with better memory can correct me. That should tell everything about BMC.

Good luck selling your Scalret brain for 8k$ next year when people are offering it for 5,5k$ now. This applies to everyone who bought new Scarlet brain this year. You bought yours when the sale was on for few weeks after the camera was released in december 2011? Then you might save more, but it doesn't change fact that Scarlet brain resale value has dropped over 40% under a year. By the way it's not looking too good for you either, something that your fellow RED users are also telling you (your price is too high and that's why you havent' sold it): http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?88178-Feeler-FS-RED-Scarlet-X-256

This is RED SCarlet vs BMC thread btw.