RED Scarlet for ENG work?

[M. Reilly]

Is anyone seriously considering using any RED camera for ENG work? To what extent do you plan on using it?

I'm of the belief (after reading some workflow posts) that the workflow is no good for time-critical news or the like. Also, I don't think RED will be manufacturing any ENG add-ons like on-camera mic/light mounting hardware.

Am I right in believing that ENG shooters are the bastard children of the "RED revolution?"

I am still somewhat optimistic about the fixed Scarlet.

 

[Eki Halkka]

I'm of the belief (after reading some workflow posts) that the workflow is no good for time-critical news or the like.

Well, you can just copy the files from the camera and start editing... so it's not that hard.

Scarlets are supposed to do 1080p processed in-camera, in addition to the raw recording, so even if your software doesn't directly support red's raw files, it will probably support red's 1080p.

 

[Steve Gibby]

Electronic News Gathering (ENG) hasn't been a significant part of RED One production for obvious reasons - the need for RAW to RGB rendering, quick turnarounds, tight deadlines, etc. But RED One has been used widely in Electronic Field Production (EFP), specifically non-hardlined EFP, and quite often that involves hybrid style camera setups and usage techniques - lightweight camera setups, 35mm stills lenses (sometimes B4 lenses too), eye focusing, no matte boxes (screw-on filters), no follow focuses, etc. Some examples of genres using hybrid RED setups are: adventure travel, alternative sports, some music productions, wildlife, nature, some aerials, some underwater, many documentaries, stock footage, and many more genres.

If the option for selectable 1080p RGB recording makes it into the final specifications for the DSMC cameras, and its in a codec that can be edited quickly in ENG editing systems, thus enabling quick turnaround ENG production, then by all means combination news photographers/motion shooters could put those DSMC cameras to good use.

Yes, the fixed lens Scarlet may turn out to be a very good EFP style (especially non-hardlined) and ENG-style camera - especially if it has a selectable RGB recording option. Especially of RED also makes the 2x extender and wide converter lenses they talked about, which can be easily added and removed from the fixed lens.

ENG is the bastard child of RED - but hybrid and EFP production (especially non-hardlined) have been, are now, and will continue to be done widely with RED One - and even more so with Epic and Scarlet to come.

For my take on RED One use in various types of EFP and ENG production, visit my sticky at the top of this forum.

 

[M. Reilly]

Steve, do you have any hardware solutions you use to get your RED One to operate more like an ENG/EFP-styled camera?

Mounted shotgun mic? Light?

 

[Steve Gibby]

Yes, I do. I've attached four pics to this post - two pics of a straight non-hardlned EFP RED One setup, and two pics of a hybrid non-hardlined EFP RED One setup.

The shots of the straight EFP setup are old - taken in October 2007 - thus the lack of ET EVF mount (which I always use with the RED EVF), lack of a shotgun mic, and RED Cradle mounting of the drive and battery on the back. I've owned a RED B4 Adaptor since September 2007, and it's in use in those pics. The lens is a Fujinon 16x HD EFP/ENG zoom. What's also missing is a lens hirose to 12v accessory cable to power the lens servo-zoom.

I have more recent straight non-hardlined EFP pics with all those other accessories on the rig, plus shots of different lenses on it - Fujinion 22x7.3, Fujinon 13x4.5, and others. When I can I'll dig those out and post them.

I rarely use those kind of setups B4 lens setups on RED for a simple reason - it restricts me to only shooting 2k footage. Even if the project is destined for HDTV, in my experience it is better to shoot 3k on RED One. When you resample RED 3k footage down to 1080p it look great - much better than B4 2k footage shot on RED One.

Shooting 3k limits me to two lens options - cine lenses or 35mm stills lenses. Cine lenses are much to heavy for their focal lengths to be of much use in hybrid production. I use 35mm stills lenses - they are small, light, have longer focal lengths, and give me the ability to use screw-on filters - something I couldn't do with cine lenses. The last thing I want in mobile hybrid work is to wrestle with the added bulk and weight of a matte box and follow focus - thus the stills lenses, screw-on filters, and no follow focus use.

The other two pics are of one of my RED cameras setup for hybrid non-hardlined EFP work - sporting a Nikon 28-70 f/2.8 zoom (with screw-on filter package), Sennheiser shotgun in a Rode shock mount, Lite Panels Micro light, dual wireless mic system, ET EVF mount, and ET Shock Mount for the RED Drive. That setup weighs 21 pounds - a good weight for mobile tripod and shoulder held work.

I also have several ET Mantis Shoulder Mount units this setup can be put on. For this I just use the shoulder pad portion of the Mantis and use both hands on the Nikon lens like I would with a B4 HD zoom. Changing from the shoulder pad to tripod simply entails quickly removing the shoulder pad, then sliding the rig onto the tripod dovetail.

What you can't see well in those hybrid pics is the cheese plate I have on top of the camera, to which I run a simple bracket out to the smart side of the camera to go underneath the shotgun for support. The wireless mic receiver is mounted on the end of that bracket. The light is mounted on simple L-bracket I found at a photography store.

With Epic and Scarlet, both being smaller than RED One, even more modular, and in many ways more hybrid and EFP production friendly, and hopefully having RGB recording options, doing hybrid and EFP work should be much easier than with RED One.

All pics are of my RED 0008 - I own multiple RED cameras

 

[David Rasberry]

Nice setup Steve. How well does the B4 lens and adapter perform compared to the still lenses at 2k?

 

[N SPEN]

Hey Steve,

How much does that thing weigh, compared to a DVCPro or similar?

 

[Steve Gibby]

Thanks David...

The RED B4 Adaptor has excellent glass in it. When I've used top-level HD EFP/ENG zooms on RED One, shooting 2k naturally, the footage has been pretty good - certainly adequate for a 720p , PAL, or NTSC finish.

But when I've tested good still lenses in 2k on RED One, the resulting footage has been a fair amount more crisp. My guess on that is that even though the B4 Adapter is very good, the fact remains that the image has to travel through more glass to get to the sensor - thus a slightly softer image is generated. When using the 35mm stills lenses for 2k shooting, there is just less glass for for the image to travel through, thus a crisper image is generated. The X factor in this is that most lenses are a bit stronger in the center portion of the lens, thus a 2k crop in the center of a good 35mm stills lens is cropping down to the strong portion of the lens.

As mentioned in my previous post, when using 35mm stills lenses on RED One in Hybrid production, I invariably shoot 3k unless I absolutely need frame rates above 60fps, then I may shoot some 2k. The 3k footage on RED using good 35mm stills lenses is gorgeous - crisp, clean, etc. - and it resamples down to a 1080 finish exceptionally well.

 

[Steve Gibby]

Hey Steve,

How much does that thing weigh, compared to a DVCPro or similar?

The B4 lens EFP setup pictured weighed around 20 pounds. The hybrid setup pictured weighs around 21 pounds.

Most fully rigged, mobile non-hardlined EFP cameras (BetaCam, Varicam, F900) weigh around the same as my examples - from maybe 20 pounds up to 27 pounds, depending on the lens and accessories on them.

 

[Steve Gibby]

Attached are two more recent pics of another of my RED cameras ("London") with my RED B4 Adaptor, Fujinon 22x7.3 HD EFP/ENG zoom, with hirose to 12v cable to power lens servo-zoom unit.

Rig weight = around 25 pounds

 

[Ryan B]

RedOne ENG...

RedOne ENG...

Man thats a wicked setup Steve.
Thanks for sharing the photos!

Ryanb.

 

[Steve Gibby]

Happy to help...

Even with RED One there is almost no end to the possible lens and accessory combinations. With Epic and Scarlet there should be even many more possibilities than with RED One - especially for hybrid style and EFP style setups.

Fun times ahead...

 

[N SPEN]

Steve, just like to thank you helping me make my first foray into RED. It looks as though the shooting situations and field work you do is very similar to where I often find myself. It has given me real comfort reading your posts before lashing out the dough on this beast. I'm going for a light weight Nikon based set up for starters and will look at getting into the EPIC when it comes out.

Out of curiosity, what base plate system have you found works fastest/easiest? The reason I ask is I have used the Sony v-mount quick release system for years and anything less than this would seem cumbersome.

Thanks again.

 

[Joseph Ward]

I think Steve Gibby is onto something with Red and LIVE DSMC, for ENG/EFP. With Red being so quiet about their upcoming RGB, FF1080P, and Scarlet 2/3 Fixed, this can be a killer combination.

The next big Red Revolution for me is some REDCODE RGB(if it has Graemes magical pixies working on it like REDCODE RAW with new free firmware updates)!

 

[Steve Gibby]

Nic,

I'm happy my posts have helped you...

In terms of sheer volume of productions each year, the combined hybrid production and EFP production industries are the big elephant in the room in the motion media business. RED One has been a pretty hybrid and EFP friendly camera, but IMO Scarlet (and Epic) will be even way more usable in those styles than R1.

I've used a lot of Sony V-mount plate systems over the years, and yes they are quick and efficient for run n' gun production. The down side is they can get loose sometimes and give a slight wobble to the camera in a pan/tilt. I've also had a few of them fail in extreme forward tilt situations - one time I had a camera drop clear off the Sony V-mount, and drop 15 feet to a floor below - an expensive lesson.

With my REDs I've been using the ET ARRI dovetail, in tandem with the ET hybrid base plate. I've learned to change out the camera from the ET dovetail on top of my Miller 55 heads, to the dovetail on the ET Mantis, and back, quickly, almost as fast as using a Sony V-plate. The dovetails are very solid too - no wobble movement whatsoever. When I'm using my real long lenses (Canon 800, Canon 150-600) I simply release the Miller plate from the head, and lift off the entire camera/lens/base plate/dovetail/Miller mini-plate combo from the tripod. To put it back on the tripod I just line the Miller mini-plate on the bottom up with its slot on top of the head, drop it in, and it snaps into place.

 

[Steve Gibby]

Joseph,

All things with RED are subject to change, but IMO the fixed lens Scarlet, with user selectable RAW and RGB, FF1080P, and a host of other hybrid and EFP friendly features, is very much "alive and well". I would be deeply surprised if all those features, and probably many more hybrid and EFP friendly features were not in the fixed lens and 2/3" Cinema Scarlet models.

I also expect the mentioned "fly by wire" capabilities to be in the final specs for the fixed lens model too. What that exactly means, nobody but RED Team knows. As a mere guess on my part, I'd suggest it refers to the combination of a host of user-selectable auto features (iris, focus, etc.), naturally de-selectable if you want manual controls, and also the ability to control Scarlet remotely with the RED Mote - which would actually be "fly by non-wire"

Then there is the 2/3" Cinema Scarlet, which I'd guess will be very EFP production friendly, with the probable ability to use B4 2/3" HD EFP/ENG zooms.

I'm fascinated by REDCODE RGB. In quick turnaround hybrid and EFP production with Scarlet, that would give us the ability to simply select RGB, shoot the gig, and either hand over the footage to clients or our editors, or back it up first then hand it over. Then we could switch to RAW to shoot longer turnaround wraps, in-bumps, out-bumps, promos, creative montage shots, etc., where we have the time to maximize the post advantages of RAW over RGB.

Going to be interesting to see what's up when the specs are finalized for the Scarlet models - and Epic models too. :thumbsup:

 

[Jason Sturgis]

Steve,
Some great points you bring up in this discussion. I am hoping that the 2/3 Scarlet will be able to use B4 zooms(in 3K)- I think that would make for a wonderful EFP kit and perhaps starting chipping into the Varicam world. I love my Red but feel that the 2/3 scarlet w/ B4 set up could be an amazing set up for EFP. Horses for courses I know but the 2/3 Scarlet could turn out to be THE horse for the outdoor course.

 

[Steve Gibby]

Thanks Jason...and you make a very good point there about the 2/3" removable lens Scarlet. It is somehow named "Cinema", but in reality it could very well be turn out to be a superb 2/3" B4 HD EFP/ENG zoom camera.

The genius of these modular cameras will be their broad utility...build them for what you need to shoot that day, then go get some images. The next day, or portion of thereof, just quickly re-build and maybe re-lens the camera, and you're off doing another style and/or genre of production. If the specs come out the way I think they will, everyone is going to give a major, but way pleasant sigh when they''re announced

Fun times ahead gents...

 

[Stefan Christou]

Just to chime in on this excellent discussion. I think a big factor in whether Reds are used in news environments will depend on how well they play with Avid, and specifically whether Red takes up the opportunity to get the RGB files supported by AMA (Avid Media Access), which lets material from a card or disk populate bins instantly for editing as soon as it is inserted into the edit machine.

AMA is open to all manufacturers to develop a plugin for their media type and already includes Sony's XDCAM and XDCAM EX, Panasonic's P2, and Ikegami GFCam.

It's way cool and beats the hell out of transcoding material in into certain other NLEs (ahem). It's how non-linear editing should be.

BTW Script sync rules.

Just my two cents.

Stefan

 

[Joseph Ward]

RED should make a zoom lens for the cinema 2/3 interchangeable too. I want to be able to have the choice of not owning anything other than RED! lol