RED Scarlet for ENG work?

[Barry Fontaine]

Quentin_B, excellent points all!

I have over 20 years shooting and editing ENG in a News environment. I have also worked on Docs where the shooting style and workflow has very much matched that of News. I have shot on every Sony Betacam SP/SX, Panasonic, Ikegami and others that have crossed my path. I own a Canon XL1 that is long since past it's usefullness that I freelanced on the side from my TV News work.
I will also likely buy a Red Scarlet 2/3 for my freelance rig. I like the ability to sell a 1080p product with superior image capture and codec. The ability to shoot 3K will no doubt set myself apart from the XDCam and DigiBeta owners currently freelancing in my market. Is that a good thing?

My questions are based on economic realities. How will my product be accepted by clients? Will they be able to easily ingest or transfer my material into the wide range of workflows that exist in todays real life TV world? Is 1080p RGB on a CF or RAID with a RED codec going to be accepted? Are there other Codecs available "in camera" so as to deliver my footage quickly and in the language my clients will demand?

Signed, A Red newbie. Barry.

 

[Rob Ruffo]

I suppose you could say the Sony PMW EX1, EX3, and the Z series and Panasonic's equivalents. They may be more cross over semipro cameras but they get used a hell of a lot in broadcast - especially ob docs where often producers, researchers or directors shoot a lot of the material these days. Really at the price point of the scarlet this is the market they are going to be touching on whether they are aiming for it or not. But you have a point about the higher end true ENG cameras, autofocus not normally present there.

I really get that what Red are offering is amazing at any price and double so because of the price, but my sense is that the cameras remain mostly targeted at the high end cinematography and film world rather than broadcast or that that is where they are coming at it from. For a film cinematographer the Scarlet will just about blow their minds.

I imagine a full scarlet rig with a zoom lens, pro IO module, battery module and shoulder rig will significantly undercut the price of a regular pro broadcast HD EFP/ENG cam like the PMW-350L by a factor of 2 or more. From what I've heard the imagery from an EX1 or EX3 is pretty close to something like the 350L and is considered acceptable for generating 100% of a programs content for broadcast by the BBC. An EX1 or EX3 is a lot closer to the scarlet in price point (especially bearing in mind you would need some extra modules in the package to get you a viewfinder, full size xlrs, genlock and a shoulder brace and on board mic). A lot of people coming to a new camera will look at it in comparison to other cameras at it's price point so invariably the scarlet gets compared to the likes of the HVX's and EX1's. At this level it's not quite so black and white. For most working in broadcast anything above 1080P isn't going to get used, certainly not by clients or in transmission anyway - so there goes a major feature of the Scarlet. If users want to shoot in Red RGB scaled 1080 mode they will presumably need to set the look in camera as it will get baked in to some degree. On the EX1 and most broadcast cameras there are numerous handy switches and controls for direct control of all the baked in settings like white balance and gain so they can be accessed quickly in breaking news type situations, so far these are not shown as being present in any form - modular or otherwise, for the Scarlet. The few programmable buttons revealed so far would not cover these as you would need them for switching between iris, focus and zoom control on the lens ring during shooting. Then there are lenses - sure you could buy a 2/3" brain, a B4 mount adapter and a broadcast zoom lens (and from Gibby's reports suffer some soft imagery due to the extra glass involved) - but the lens in the Scarlet fixed is only 8X. I know it will be a very high quality 8x with all the resolution needed to look pin sharp throughout at 3K (fatastic for filmmakers wanting to shoot 3K), but it is only 8X. Many broadcast ENG lenses, including the one packaged with the EX1 and EX3 come in at 14X and have a built in switch in 2x extender. This gives the user great flexibility in fast breaking news situations or on ob docs and reality shows. These versatile lenses usually come as part of the package with these ENG cameras too so count them in the cost. There are also many other little operational features that have slowly sprung up in these sorts of cameras that are specifically targeted at the run and gun ENG style shooter which may or may not make their way onto the scarlet (haven't seen many in the specs released so far). The most important feature for ENG use would probably be interlace mode. Despite the move to LCD and plasma screens by consumers (which are natively progressive display devices) all broadcasters that I know of broadcast interlaced material - even the few who have taken up the HD mantle (well certainly the BBC anyway). Although there may be ways around this and it may only be a perceived problem producers and others in big TV news gathering organisations will not see 1080i and may just simply discount the Scarlet for their quick turnaround production needs.

Perhaps one could shoot 1080@60p for USA or 1080@ 50P for UK and get it to playback/output in realtime from the edit as an interlaced 30 or 25 frames per second? Even so I think a lot of execs would need to see it for themselves to be convinced. 1080i as a spec in camera however and they wouldn't give it a second glance.

So to my mind if you are shooting only for broadcast news and run and gun stuff it is not so straightforward a choice as to whether to buy a Scarlet or not. Other cameras may just be slightly better suited to the job.

This has been the dilemma in my mind as I have imagined myself focusing on ob docs for the future.

The main attraction of the Scarlet for me is it's ability to excel in other forms of acquisition. If I want to shoot a drama for someone or for that matter do any other kind of work apart from ENG style then it would enable that big time. So don't get me wrong, I love the Scarlet specs I've seen so far, I love the price and am very likely to get one as my one and only camera, all of the above points have just been a sticking point in my mind due to my imagined direction in terms of the main type of scenarios I'm likely to shoot.



Disclaimer. I may have got some things wrong, above, don't take my views as being totally correct or authoritative views of an industry insider. I may come across as thinking I am, but I'm not really. I did a TV broadcasting degree some time ago where I did live multicam studio work, ENG, EFP and just about everything else then worked for a while as a one man video department for a multimedia company but haven't worked in the industry for a while so that limited experience and snippets from the net as I plan my re-entry into the field are where I get my knowledge from. I would appreciate the perspective of a seasoned pro like Gibby or someone working wholly in ENG or ob docs on my opinions expressed above.

1080i is just a way of broadcasting a 1080p30fps signal, by splitting each of those 30 progressive frames into a half-field every 60th of a second. No oen in their right mind would shoot a "true" 1080i, where each field is recorded at a different moment in time (so 60 "moments" per second, rather than 30 momenst split up in 60 fields) - this would result in awful combing on most televisions which are natively 30p, and cannot actually display higher frame rates than that. All major networks broadcast material shot at 1080p30 or 1080p24 (CSI Miami and other shows) via 1080i as merely a delivery method (or when 720p sometimes but rarely 720p60 - this mostly for sports). No primetime show is actually shot in "true 1080i".

I would refuse to work with a producer too stupid to realize that a 1080p30 project can easily be converted to 1080i for broadcast at any point in time. This is not "advanced knowledge".

As per drama shooting drama costs a lot. Makeup alone, per day, adds up to a A LOT. Why shoot drama on a 2/3 camera!? Why not just buy a Red? The extra cost is nothing compared to how it costs to put together one day of watchable fiction shooting, and 2/3 is not really acceptable, I think, for anything but comedy anymore.

 

[David Rasberry]

Most of the dramatic broadcast series shot on 2/3" are shot on high end cameras, F900's, Panny 3700's and the like, not the lower end 2/3" ENG cameras. 2/3" is an excellent flexible production format for just about anything.

 

[David W. Jones]

As per drama shooting drama costs a lot. Makeup alone, per day, adds up to a A LOT. Why shoot drama on a 2/3 camera!? Why not just buy a Red? The extra cost is nothing compared to how it costs to put together one day of watchable fiction shooting, and 2/3 is not really acceptable, I think, for anything but comedy anymore.

Rob, as David points out, high end 2/3" cameras are more than capable of handling the chores of most any production, including large budget films. And as far as "The extra cost of of buying a Red" compared to a high end 2/3" camera, The cost of a Red One is a spit in the bucket compared to the price of a Sony F950.

Most of the dramatic broadcast series shot on 2/3" are shot on high end cameras, F900's, Panny 3700's and the like, not the lower end 2/3" ENG cameras. 2/3" is an excellent flexible production format for just about anything.

 

[James Brundige]

Electronic News Gathering (ENG) hasn't been a significant part of RED One production for obvious reasons - the need for RAW to RGB rendering, quick turnarounds, tight deadlines, etc. But RED One has been used widely in Electronic Field Production (EFP), specifically non-hardlined EFP, and quite often that involves hybrid style camera setups and usage techniques - lightweight camera setups, 35mm stills lenses (sometimes B4 lenses too), eye focusing, no matte boxes (screw-on filters), no follow focuses, etc. Some examples of genres using hybrid RED setups are: adventure travel, alternative sports, some music productions, wildlife, nature, some aerials, some underwater, many documentaries, stock footage, and many more genres.

I've sold my B4 lenses and use a selection of Nikons for nature and doc shooting. I do miss the built in zoom motor in the Fujinon. Have you found any solutions for zooming your Nikon lenses, which is impossible to do smoothly by hand?

 

[Steve Gibby]

I've sold my B4 lenses and use a selection of Nikons for nature and doc shooting. I do miss the built in zoom motor in the Fujinon. Have you found any solutions for zooming your Nikon lenses, which is impossible to do smoothly by hand?

I've sold my B4 lenses too. I own the Red B4 adaptor, and I simply rent B4 lenses if I need them.

I zoom 35mm still lenses on Red by hand. With practice it goes quite well. I rarely zoom during a shot, so a smooth zoom isn't often needed - but I can zoom smoothly during a shot if necessary. For mobile hybrid and EFP work with Red, I mostly use my 35mm still zooms as variable primes, for quick re-framing, then hitting record.

I did experiment for some time with adapting a servo-zoom unit I cannibalized from a Fujinon EFP/ENG zoom to my Nikon 50-300 f4.5 AIS zoom, with pretty good results. The Fujinon servo-zoom was powered by a hirose to LEMO cable I got from Red, plugged into the 12v auxiliary bus on the smart side of Red.

I'm guessing (and hoping) that using the new Red Electronic Lenses will eliminate the need for an external servo-zoom or adapted Micro Force motor. We'll see...

 

[Stuart English]

1080i for TV use

1080i for TV use

No one in their right mind would shoot a "true" 1080i, where each field is recorded at a different moment in time
(so 60 "moments" per second, rather than 30 momentst split up in 60 fields)

Hey Rob, I wouldn't mention that to NHK, or CBS, or NBC or HDNet, just to name a few major program commissioners

Your combing artifact comment is inaccurate if the display de-interlaces to progressive (most TV's do, most P.C monitors don't)


There is a place for 1008i/59.94fps, but over time we can expect that it will be replaced by 1080p/59.94fps as a production standard.

 

[James Brundige]

Quentin_B, excellent points all!

"Television is a long plastic hallway where pimps and thieves run wild and good men die like dogs."
Hunter S. Thompson..

The most awful assignments of my life have been interviews of Hunter Thompson. One of the real assholes of all time, who kept us waiting for 12 hours, only to show up too drunk to talk. Then there's the time he threw a drink on Phil Mahr in the middle of taping a show. Many such stories from colleagues.

Clever quote, but I've mostly met quality people in thirty years in TV, with the exception of Hunter Thompson.

 

[James Brundige]

I've sold my B4 lenses too. I own the Red B4 adaptor, and I simply rent B4 lenses if I need them.

I zoom 35mm still lenses on Red by hand. With practice it goes quite well. I rarely zoom during a shot, so a smooth zoom isn't often needed - but I can zoom smoothly during a shot if necessary. For mobile hybrid and EFP work with Red, I mostly use my 35mm still zooms as variable primes, for quick re-framing, then hitting record.

I did experiment for some time with adapting a servo-zoom unit I cannibalized from a Fujinon EFP/ENG zoom to my Nikon 50-300 f4.5 AIS zoom, with pretty good results. The Fujinon servo-zoom was powered by a hirose to LEMO cable I got from Red, plugged into the 12v auxiliary bus on the smart side of Red.

I'm guessing (and hoping) that using the new Red Electronic Lenses will eliminate the need for an external servo-zoom or adapted Micro Force motor. We'll see...

I don't zoom often, but sometimes it's just the right move, starting on a detail or discovering one, or pushing in slowly as tears well up. It would be cool if Red could pull that off with the Redmote.

 

[Stefan Christou]

Barriers to using RED One in ENG: From talking to an experienced ENG freelancer who shoots on Sony's here were three reasons why he does not shoot on RED, starting with the most important first.

1. He would not be able to afford to give away recording media, this is the same reason he does not shoot panasonic. For TV News work this is the biggest barrier to P2 or RED workflows for a freelance cameramen.
2. He felt he would have to add too many things on for it to work the way he needed and that the kit as a whole would be too heavy.

Reason's for a station not to take RED footage might be...

1. Stations want native workflows in terms of compatibility, framerate and resolution. (The new version of Avid may have changed this as you can now have multiple resolutions or framerates on a single timeline, meaning 1080p could be played out with 1080i or SD footage from library.)

I think Scarlet fixed could make some headway into budget US stations if the RGB is compatible with AMA. 2/3" Cinema and Epic could make inroads for the bigger markets and for freelancers if RGB has AMA and the recording media is not prohibitively expensive. I'm told £100 is the upper limit for giving away recording media in the UK.

 

[Quentin Brown]

The 1080i issue may be not quite so important as I thought. At least not for the BBC. Having just re-read their guide for HD production whilst they may require a specific format such as 1080i for a show commission they will in most circumstances accept 1080 25p. Which will be broadcast 1080 25 psf (interlaced signal, progressive frames) However you may not be this lucky with other broadcasters.

At the Broadcast Video Expo in London the other week there were a huge number of seminars on RED and RED in post, plus RED Ones on many stands. It seems they are taking off in broadcast but mostly for Drama and TVC spots, not more mobile applications. I think the Scarlets will be the game changer for all this due to the form factor and hopefully the more approachable 1080 RGB recording format, which I hope will be well supported on common affordable edit systems like FCP and be able to playback on a standard system in realtime at full res without a RedRocket. Hopefully this format will also mean smaller file-sizes since it will be lower resolution than the full 3k R3Ds, making buying a suitable sized portable hard drive to hand over deliverables a cheap give away media option.

Having said previously that I saw myself going in a Documentary route, I realise from working on a recent shoot that I love working on Dramas. So I may well go high end and get a RED Rocket™ to DIT on red shoots, then eventually get a s35 or F35 Scarlet (for nice filmic shallow DoF control) + 2/3" fixed (for high frame rates + bundled modules) as I work my way up the camera dept and once the RR has paid for itself so I'm getting less and less worried about these ENG/EFP specifics. I don't envisage doing any news, and EFP can usually afford to spend some time in post and with a RR and hopefully soon direct support for the RR in FCP and Color I'll be able to offer a nice efficient workflow to clients.

 

[David Rasberry]

I see no reason a Scarlet wouldn't work as an ENG camera for a stringer or photojournalist that also shot other material more appropriate to the camera's intended work flow. But I don't see widespread adoption as a TV station news camera. The conventional over the shoulder ENG video camera is highly evolved for that task and the news bureau work flow is tightly integrated. Properly configured a Scarlet could be pretty efficient, but it would have a hard time competing with the likes of Sony in the news market.