Red, please make a follow focus for your new cameras...

[Larry McKee]

The OConnor CFF-1 does all of this...

And I'm sure it does it well. But, again, it is doing it at a price point near Arri. Would it be possible (feasible) to make a dumbed down version that is less modular? For example, I like the way that the focus wheel can be rotated down, but what if you offered a version with a stationary wheel? Would that shave some cost?

 

[Jim Elias]

Then talk to whatever manager that sets pricing and get them to bring it in line with the same pricing strategy as the obox

If only it were that simple... The world would be an easier place if it were simply a matter of flipping a switch on pricing.

A couple of days ago I had to put together an O-Box for some funky mountain-bike mud-and-snow torture promo shoot. Beating up a new one would have been silly, so I rummaged around in my milk crate and got enough old proto parts together to build. It took less than fifteen minutes, from scratch, nothing came out of the milk crate pre-assembled. That was a design spec, because we knew where we wanted to land on price point, and this "lean" assembly time was necessary.

FFs are different. The parts are more complex, there is the addition of lots of pricey bought-outs such as ball bearings, the quantities are smaller, and the prep and assembly times are simply on orders of magnitude higher... it all adds up.

But we are looking at what we might do. Obviously, it's a price-performance equation: we don't want to offer half the performance for half the price, it has to be a better deal for you than that on one end or the other. But it will definitely not be a CFF-1.

And I'm sure it does it well. But, again, it is doing it at a price point near Arri. Would it be possible (feasible) to make a dumbed down version that is less modular? For example, I like the way that the focus wheel can be rotated down, but what if you offered a version with a stationary wheel? Would that shave some cost?

Yes. There are a lot of things that might save cost. But we want to make sure we pick the right ones... dumbing down indiscriminately can result in a product that retains only the irrelevant features. Due diligence is key, which unfortunately takes some time.

Cheers

Jim

 

[Curran Giddens]

And if you're ever looking for people to beta test, let us know. We're game!

cheers,

Colin
finnerknowsbest.com

Finner Knows Best always has the most informative reviews. OConner should definitely send these guys one of the new FF's.

I remember Mitch from Abel does good ones too but he is banned here.

 

[Kim Frank]

Start, stop for still lenses of course And I would love to see removable marker on the SIDE of the wheel, so that the operator is able to pull focus himslef. I am not aware of a FF that does this so I alwaws need to use more or less unexact tape marks. There are times you are shooting something fast and small, a test, something private, but I think the needs to pull focus by yourself will increase due to the small form factor of the epic. I will want to be able to just go out and shoot something small, without calling an AC.
What's also another thing with pulling focus by yourself is that in handheld situations, with a shoulder mount all the weight lies on the FF. I woud wish some kind of strange handle for the rods, or an extension of the FF like whip that extents to a smaller wheel I can mount on the handle of the shoulder mount. Well that's me...

 

[Cüneyt Kaya]

something like the arri LFF1...its great for single operator situations
unfortunatly didnt had the chance to use the new oconnor ff.
its all arri here in germany, some competition is good.
and i like that jim elias switched and now can explore some interesting design ideas.

 

[Steven-Marc C.]

How about designing a follow focus specifically for using the Epic in lightweight mode. Something that could double both as a left handle and a follow focus and that would mount directly to the brain, without the use of rods (or perhaps using a top rod). Something that would work for one-man operation when using the side handle configuration. Some kind of system where you could switch from blocked position, where the wheel functions as a handle, to a position where it can be used as a normal follow focus. Perhaps a push-pull mechanism or a lever?

It seems like O'Connor might be ideally positionned to come up with something like that.

Cinevate's follow focus may actually partly fill the bill but I haven't used one and don't know how it performs.

 

[Curran Giddens]

Some info I gathered on the OConnor mini FF:

With all the talk of still glass for cinema work (and I dont think EPIC is an exception) I thought I would post this...It's our new O-Ring Friction Driver and works quite well. Direct contact with the rubber focus wheel of the lens and the follow focus drive assembly.

Yes...

Now that you mention it; we need a larger gear so that the hard stop feature of the mini FF can reach end to end on some still lenes. No Problem!

The gear wheel mounting is the same on both the new mini follow focus as on the CFF-1. So whatever rubber ring wheel is made for one will work on the other.

 

[Dustin Cross]

The CFF-1 and the FF-4 are great. The pricing on FF and Tripod heads is INSANE! You can buy a brand new transmission for your car for less and it has WAY more gears and WAY more complexity.

The only request I would have is a price under $1500.

It seems to me the pricing on the CFF-1 was set the same as the Arri because you could.

When Red made the Red One they didn't set the price in line with every other super high end camera out. They set the price so people would buy the cameras and they sold tons of cameras.

If Oconnor made a CFF-1 for $1500 and a 2060 head for $2500, I would think you would increase your sales by more than ten fold.

For an outsider, the pricing schemes just seem greedy. A good matte box, follow focus, and tripod cost more than the most technically complicated camera ever made. That is insane.

Change the pricing. I think that is what people are really asking for when they say they want Red to make something new.


Dusty

 

[AnthonyFlores]

The CFF-1 and the FF-4 are great. The pricing on FF and Tripod heads is INSANE! You can buy a brand new transmission for your car for less and it has WAY more gears and WAY more complexity.

The only request I would have is a price under $1500.

It seems to me the pricing on the CFF-1 was set the same as the Arri because you could.

When Red made the Red One they didn't set the price in line with every other super high end came out. They set the price so people would buy the cameras and they sold tons of cameras.

If Oconnor made a CFF-1 for $1500 and a 2060 head for $2500, I would think you would increase your sales by more than ten fold.

For an outsider, the pricing scheme just seem greedy. A good matte box, follow focus, and tripod cost more than the most technically complicated camera ever made. That is insane.

Change the pricing. I think that is what people are really asking for when they say they want Red to make something new.

Dusty

Well, you should bitch about Arri as well ... because the OCon is more advanced and at the same price point.

But seriously, it's a little presumptuous to assume the same $10,000 fluid head could be sold for $2500. While I have no idea what the real cost is, I do know that the performance is incredible and it's built like a tank -- I can easily see our 2060 lasting a lifetime.

There's no denying OConnor is priced at a premium level ... however, I know a LOT of users who've forked up the cash and are overjoyed they did, especially relative to previous less expensive tripods they've used.

Also, I think OConnor is doing what they can to create new products that are a bit more accessible to those with lower budgets. The OBox is very reasonable, the new follow focus will be amazing and affordable, the 1030 -- while not "cheap" at $5000 (I think) for the head -- is probably going to be one of the most often used for Epic/Scarlet. Maybe it would be nice to have something a bit below the 1030 for DSLR and Epic/Scarlet users -- perhaps a $3000 head -- that would round out the low-end product line ... but overall I think OConnor is listening and doing a great job.

Anthony

 

[david_winters]

It doesn't make sense to BUY a lower cost mechanical FF optimized for one camera.

I waited 10 years to buy a MB and FF. Then I purchased early versions of the MB20 and FF5, plus four years to break even. It takes a long time at $0 - 100 day... especially when my typical industrial and talking head spots don't require either. But totally worth it, each item has contributed to more work with sometimes better rates.

The same is true for my 2060. People think I'm crazy shooting DSLR with a 2060. I have smaller heads, but the large head and high drag lets me move faster and takes out all the high frequency shakes and slop.

I have yet to run into a situation where the FF5 will not fit. The same is true of the CFF1. This is not possible with lower cost FF units. Examples from the past 8 weeks w FF5.

- 5D with very short canon 50mm 1.4 w MB.

- head mounted teleprompters

- Red 18-85mm and RPP (a little awkward to engage but it works)

- Two HDX900 cams shooting through one prompter, all on one head. Improvised on set and not prepped.

I may trade up to a CFF1 and add the obox at some point, but the gear I have now does everything I need.

Eric, Jim, good work guys.

 

[Dustin Cross]

I didn't mean to sound like I was targeting Oconnor. My comments were directed at Arri and everyone else who makes professional camera accessories that cost so much. Oconnor just happens to actually be here listening.

You want to know what Redusers want? They want pricing in line with the Red cameras. Not pricing in line with F-35 and Panavision.

I have no idea what it costs to make a 2060 or an FF4. My opinion is there is huge profit on those items, but I could be very wrong. We buy them because they are good, but also because we have no option to buy anything else that compares.

Tripod - You can get an Oconnor 2060 or 2575 or what? There are a couple companies that make comparable products, but cost the same or more.

Follow Focus - You can get an FF4 or now the CFF-1. Thats it. If you want a working FF. The low costs options are single sided or POS.

Matte Box - MB-20 or MB-14. I have never seen the new Oconnor Matte Box, but it seems like a specialty matte box like the LMB-5 or new Red Matte Box. The Redrock Matte box is close, but quality next to MB-20 is night and day.

Maybe I am wrong and it is easier to build a brand new automatic transmission with tons of exacting parts than to build a simple little mattebox with less than 50 parts that doesn't flex and wobble. Or a double sidded follow focus without lash.


Dusty

 

[David Mullen ASC]

This has been a classic theme running through posts ever since the Red One came out -- "Jim, build me a PeeWee dolly for 1/10th the cost -- I can't afford the real thing!" "Jim, can Red build a 4K projector and sell it for $2000?" "Jim, can you make a 4K RAW camera that only costs $1000?"

There are sometimes reasons why things cost what they do, particularly non-electronic precision mechanical devices that cannot be made and sold at high volume for economics of scale to kick in, so you are basically paying for manufacturing quality, labor and materials.

So for Red to build an ARRI-quality follow-focus at 1/10th the cost, you're asking them to find some third-world prison labor to build it, and somehow build it at an ARRI-level of quality, I guess by promising them another bowl of moldy rice if they work twice as hard. Because it's not like he can set-up a modern factory to build 100,000 quality units a year and sell all them so that the costs can come down over time.

 

[D Fuller]

This has been a classic theme running through posts ever since the Red One came out -- "Jim, build me a PeeWee dolly for 1/10th the cost -- I can't afford the real thing!" "Jim, can Red build a 4K projector and sell it for $2000?" "Jim, can you make a 4K RAW camera that only costs $1000?"

There are sometimes reasons why things cost what they do, particularly non-electronic precision mechanical devices that cannot be made and sold at high volume for economics of scale to kick in, so you are basically paying for manufacturing quality, labor and materials.

So for Red to build an ARRI-quality follow-focus at 1/10th the cost, you're asking them to find some third-world prison labor to build it, and somehow build it at an ARRI-level of quality, I guess by promising them another bowl of moldy rice if they work twice as hard. Because it's not like he can set-up a modern factory to build 100,000 quality units a year and sell all them so that the costs can come down over time.

Well said! Thank you.

 

[Meryem Ersoz]

well, the original poster says in a subsequent post that he has "never used a follow focus" - so he doesn't actually know what he is asking for...

things are actually pretty good in follow focus land - I have a Zacuto for when I don't want to add weight to the rig and an O'Connor for when I want maximum flexibility and quality...

 

[Cüneyt Kaya]

an oconnor 2575 and arri ff4 cost as much as an epic-s
dont know, someone will step up and offer. i heard sachtler wants to introduce a new head.
anngenieux with their optimo rouge line did a great job imho building a digital style only optimo
ten years ago the prices on aks. where the same. but 8000 reds later someone
will step up and get the market.
nobody wants a non workable plastic type shit ff or head.
but instead making a 200-300% profit on an item, make only 100% and sell 5x times the amount.

 

[Cüneyt Kaya]

no pun intended at ocon, their heads never let me down, no matter what.

but an ocon 1030 + cff 1 red bundle would be nice i guess

and we should dont forget that our conversation is with the designers which i highly admire.
they dont make prices.

one example though...
reds prime lenses are priced very aggressivly.
i guess they maybe have 100-150% on top of the manufacturing costs.
substract r&d and the employers fees and not much is left.
but they do it because they sell in volumes.
and i KNOW an ultra prime costs around 2500€ to build.
they sell it for what? 10000€?

 

[Justin Chin]

What also should be mentioned is the cost of having qualified people on staff for servicing. And when you sell a lot more units you need a lot more staff.

I'd like the companies that I buy from to be around long enough so they can support my gear with parts and service.

 

[rod bradley]

As usual David summed it up brilliantly.

There is a naive lack of perspective on many fronts exhibited by the comparison of mass produced automotive system that will go into millions of vehicles (and is probably not the profit center for the vehicle anyway) -- and a highly specialized tool for a very elite craft with a limited number of serious manufacturers and users. Even at 5 to 10 times as many units, you still do not have any huge economies of scale, nor are you going to massively increase the market at half the price. There is also the hidden costs of highly skilled design work, engineering trial and error, the cumulative knowledge, all kinds of factors that go beyond the raw cost of the parts. (Just ask Curt at VF.) This is not prosumer stuff.

 

[Cüneyt Kaya]

As usual David summed it up brilliantly.

There is a naive lack of perspective on many fronts exhibited by the comparison of mass produced automotive system that will go into millions of vehicles (and is probably not the profit center for the vehicle anyway) -- and a highly specialized tool for a very elite craft with a limited number of serious manufacturers and users. Even at 5 to 10 times as many units, you still do not have any huge economies of scale, nor are you going to massively increase the market at half the price. There is also the hidden costs of highly skilled design work, engineering trial and error, the cumulative knowledge, all kinds of factors that go beyond the raw cost of the parts. (Just ask Curt at VF.) This is not prosumer stuff.

btw. the design of the arri follow focus is how old?
and viewfactors ff is not a mechanical ff, so thats another story.
its not naive to think that there is a possibility to lower the prices, its a business decision by arri which worked for decades and arri is really slow in changing their structures.
i am worried that arri will fall behind and i dont want that.
they shouldnt become a high priced niche camera product. they should accept that in 5 years a pl-mount camera will cost 3000- 5000$ and these cams want to have assec.
arri should wake up imho. and get a strategy to stay the standard.

 

[paul engstrom]

The economies of scale for video and film production have changed enormously in the last 5 years or so. The combination of RED and the DSLR explosion have put far, far more owners into play than the past.

I think that this insertion of tens of thousands of owners into the ownership market is NEW.

I don't think its crazy at all to be looking for significantly cheaper but excellent quality/PRO accessories. Someone will accomplish this with FF, matteboxes and fluid heads.

I'm optimistic that Oconnor will aggressively join the charge that RED is leading.