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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

RED party reel powered by RED RAY

How about SMPTE in Sydney for a change? I can mind it during the show....and after it. :rofl:
 
It is not Ray Charles but Johnny Ray that needs to have closed caption, so will Red Ray format have a VANC for captions and/or user data?
If is going to be a widely used format.
Did the audio come from the Red Ray for the presentation?
 
Hi Christian, Not for a while, really short on techs and still trying to get an automation system working the way we need it to. If we get it working then I might have to come down to the 'gong to help install. Know of a broadcast engineer look for a change of location?
 
So um, guys, how about some before (uncompressed) and after (10Mbps) comparison images?
And please, please use PNG and compare the same frame.

I'm surprised nobody asked for this already. Don't you want to see with your own eyes?
 
Emery Wells said:
I've come to trust you guys but 10 Mbits/sec? How in the hell has red leap frogged a generation of compression science? Does it start with Graeme and end with Natress?
Click to expand...

I believe part of the answer is temporal compression, although that has only yielded 10-20% increased compression with temporal flavours of wavelet compression, compared to non-temporal versions, that I've looked at.

I believe Rob Lohman is the compression wiz, Graeme the debayering pixel pusher? could be wrong, I'm sure they cross pollinate at times..
 
jbeale said:
Like everyone else, it's hard for me to grasp the idea of cinema quality at 10 Mbit/sec. Obviously the codec must be incredibly efficient. Beyond that, I'm guessing the original images have very low noise/grain... a super-clean original always helps with compression.
Click to expand...

..except when adding a little noise actually helps reduce banding..
 
Pawel Achtel said:
It is possible, just hard and CPU intensive. We've been mugged by Sony for past 20 years and used to watching ugly artefacts of the outdated MPEG-2 flavours from DVD, Blue Ray, DV, HDV, XDCAM to HDCAM. So, understandably, it is shocking to see something done properly and without the need to pay Sony's hefty royalties.

Just imagine how clean or/and how much you can fit of 2k content played off Red Ray.
Click to expand...

Sony hasn't mugged anyone, compression ratios are linked to information theory (not Sony per se), and it seems Red have made a signifiant breakthrough in lossy temporal compression, again, given the numbers and feedback, so lets not mug them of their achievement.

There have been much better codecs than mpeg2 for a long time, but they don't compare to these numbers.

Adapting spatial wavelet compression algorithms to temporal variants (if thats what is being used) usually only yields about 10-20% extra compression (compared to simply utilising spatial redundancy), and that traditionally hasn't been enough to compete with the DCT based temporal codecs, such as mpeg2 etc (although they may contain more blocking artifacts)
 
Erik Ponti said:
It doesn't help reduce, it prevents it. Dithering.
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Banding is generally caused by quantization. Adding a little noise won't help compression size, but can help breakup areas of banding caused by quantization and improve visuals. Not always, but often, especially when fading to black etc, low contrast areas. Thats what I mean't.

Sometimes a little human intervention is needed to get the most out of a codec, since they are bad judges of what looks good generally speaking.

I wonder if the rayray footage shown was baked out in a lossless codec for the presentation, rather than directly from the codec, since its still in development?
 
ronx said:
Banding is generally caused by quantization. Adding a little noise won't help compression size, but can help breakup areas of banding caused by quantization and improve visuals. Not always, but often, especially when fading to black etc, low contrast areas. Thats what I mean't.

Sometimes a little human intervention is needed to get the most out of a codec, since they are bad judges of what looks good generally speaking.

I wonder if the rayray footage shown was baked out in a lossless codec for the presentation, rather than directly from the codec, since its still in development?
Click to expand...
That's what I said. Dithering (adding noise to areas with banding) prevents banding...

Banding is not [directly] caused by quantization - banding is caused by the low color depth of 12-bit video... it's impossible to store a gradient, so dithering is required to cover that up. Quantization will remove that noise if there isn't enough bitrate.

In any case, I was backing you up oO
 
Erik Ponti said:
That's what I said. Dithering (adding noise to areas with banding) prevents banding...
Click to expand...

I thought you were, but I thought I'd concur that clean footage would compress better, just not always as nicely, before someone corrects me..
 
Yup. I really want to see screenshots of RED RAY >_>

4K at 10Mbps is a very bold claim to make without visual proof.
 
Vanity question - did my geisha footage make it into the new reel? :)

Back on topic, RED Ray combined with RED Rocket makes for a killer workflow loop! Acquire at 4-5K, process and grade in real time using RED Rocket, then output the final master to 4K RED Ray deliverable and play anywhere using the $1,000 RED Ray player.

Only part left to keep it an all-RED chain is a 4K monitor/projector....

Cheers!

Paul
 
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