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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

RED ONE meets Mysterium-X

Probably would safe to disregard any original shipping date. The original delivery timetable was probably guestimates not based upon a factual set of influences (ie. economy, degree of difficutly).

The release of Epic or Scarlet will be event based. Only the production minds know when the proper set of event criteria have been meet. I'm sure the Red Team is close, but for us onlookers, it would wise to let go or quit extending the original release dates.
 
Jarred Land said:
Heh heh heh I'll tell my wife that she will love it... when she named Snowflake i remember her saying " I wonder how many other white maltese out there are named Snowflake? " :)
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This is actually good symmetry. The first digital image I ever took was with a Sony Mavica (straight to 3.5" floppy!) of my dog Snowflake. The image quality was terrible. Now we have MysteriumX. We've come a very long way in the last decade.

I was unsatisfied with the picture quality 10 years ago and have stuck with film until now.
 
The shot looks great! And very tidy teeth I must say! :)

I have a technical question. Why does a higher bit rate increase the dynamic range? The bitrate is, as I understand is, responisible for the dynamic resolution, meaning the amount of steps between the highest and the lowest value. Shouldn't the dynamic range be in relation to something like range between the lowest and the highest voltage of the sensor-output?
 
Felix Knöchel said:
The shot looks great! And very tidy teeth I must say! :)

I have a technical question. Why does a higher bit rate increase the dynamic range? The bitrate is, as I understand is, responisible for the dynamic resolution, meaning the amount of steps between the highest and the lowest value. Shouldn't the dynamic range be in relation to something like range between the lowest and the highest voltage of the sensor-output?
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This is a complex subject, but as a general rule, provided you aren't overly-compressing:

  • Bitdepth (i.e. 12 or 14 bits) affects the dynamic range of an image. This is the number if discrete luminance values for a given pixel, and is indeed the digitally sampled value of the analog sensor.
  • Bitrate affects the resolution and/or detail present in the image.
-sc
 
Steven Caesare said:
This is a complex subject, but as a general rule, provided you aren't overly-compressing:

  • Bitdepth (i.e. 12 or 14 bits) affects the dynamic range of an image. This is the number if discrete luminance values for a given pixel, and is indeed the digitally sampled value of the analog sensor.
  • Bitrate affects the resolution and/or detail present in the image.
-sc
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Thanks Steven!
I guess I meant the bitdepth then :) So more discrete luminance values for a given pixel means the dynamic resolution is higher but not necessarily the dynamic range. Or is there a maximum luminence difference you should not exceed between two values because it would result in a bad picture quality?
 
I have a question. Snowflake's hair and his dark nose were lit by X light source... what if you did the same but replaced the light for the sun?

I assume the ratios would remain constant since there is little difference in proximity to the light source and the few hairs close to his nose.

So, can I also assume that I will be able to capture detail on snow while also capturing a decent amount of information on dark tree trunks? So long as the sun were hitting the trunks directly like Snowflake's nose.

Sorry if this makes no sense, I hope someone can help me understand this better.
 
Steven Caesare said:
  • Bitdepth (i.e. 12 or 14 bits) affects the dynamic range of an image. This is the number if discrete luminance values for a given pixel, and is indeed the digitally sampled value of the analog sensor.
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  • Actually that's not true in regards to dynamic range. The actual dynamic range or exposure range of a sensor is independent of how many bits or digital steps of luminance are represented on output. If you have a sensor with a 1-bit digital relay, it could still technically have 1, 2, 20, even 100 or more stops of dynamic range. The range is simply a representation of the highest and lowest luminance values that can be interpreted by the sensor and how many defined "stops" are present within that range. Bit depth or digital steps representing this range captured can be any scale, mapped to the sensor data. It can be linear or logarithmic.

    Current Mysterium sensor is a 12bit sensor, we get 12bit REDCODE files. Mysterium-X has been said to be 12bit as well, but should give us at least another stop of dynamic range, 12bits is still plenty of information to provide digital steps for each "stop".

    So I guess the proper way to look at this is the bit depth does not dictate the dynamic range. However, as dynamic range increases, it makes the most sense to have a format with enough bit depth to give us well rounded interpretation of that range.
 
Monstro is 16bit and Mysterium is 12bit so some thought Mysterium X would be 14bit even though Red never said that but said 12bit.
 
However with 14bits you will be able to push the blacks higher and get more "range" than you would with 12bits.

Could someone answer my 1st grade question above? :D
 
12 bits is a lot of room to work with. It's unlikely you'll get noticeable posterization from a 13 or 14 stop source.

re: Dog's nose.

Having just been assaulted an hour ago by a Maltese that hadn't seen me for a few months: Not necessarily. The sensor very well might be able to handle snow and tree trunks but the Maltese would not be an example of that.

White fur is bright but nowhere near as reflective as snow. Also noses and gums are pretty wet and glossy so the dynamic range of a dog isn't terribly high. Attached is an example of a photo taken of a less white and dirtier Maltese I just found on my mom's computer taken with I imagine a point and shoot camera of some kind with less dynamic range than the RED One.
 

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Roberto Lequeux said:
I see. So I guess we need to wait for charts to know.
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Who would have thought bringing a light meter to take readings off your mom's dog while visiting family would have been a prudent thing to do. :D I've learned my lesson. "Never leave home..."
 
Jarred Land said:
Yes tilted for Portrait.. if you guys havn't tried it yet.. I recommend giving it a go :)

1251172919.jpg
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I was literally thinking about doing my next short completely in portrait mode and showing it on a tilted projector screen too.
 
Joshua Brown said:
I was literally thinking about doing my next short completely in portrait mode and showing it on a tilted projector screen too.
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You should Joshua. That would be really cool to watch.
 
Jarred, what was your 90deg mounting bracket?
 
RedOne has a different size sensor than S35 Mysterium X so would there be two differ sensors?

One for RedOne Mysterium X Upgrade and one for S35 Scarlet/Epic.
 
Looks really good, I'm hoping ISO 640 is the new rating...
This is great news, congrats on the achievement, guys.

I'm interested in how RC36 in this phase and system affects fur footage, compared to a year ago.


Also, what is that larger monitor and which resolution is it ?

Jarred Land said:
1251172919.jpg
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Jeff Kilgroe said:
Actually that's not true in regards to dynamic range. The actual dynamic range or exposure range of a sensor is independent of how many bits or digital steps of luminance are represented on output. If you have a sensor with a 1-bit digital relay, it could still technically have 1, 2, 20, even 100 or more stops of dynamic range. The range is simply a representation of the highest and lowest luminance values that can be interpreted by the sensor and how many defined "stops" are present within that range. Bit depth or digital steps representing this range captured can be any scale, mapped to the sensor data. It can be linear or logarithmic.

Current Mysterium sensor is a 12bit sensor, we get 12bit REDCODE files. Mysterium-X has been said to be 12bit as well, but should give us at least another stop of dynamic range, 12bits is still plenty of information to provide digital steps for each "stop".

So I guess the proper way to look at this is the bit depth does not dictate the dynamic range. However, as dynamic range increases, it makes the most sense to have a format with enough bit depth to give us well rounded interpretation of that range.
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Certainly true Jeff. A single bit can represent infinite dynamic range actually (a light switch). If the "off" state represents 0 output, then by definition you have immeasurably large DR.

Hence, my "complex" and "general rule" qualifiers.

As I said, bitdepth "affects" the DR. Making the assumptions that the designers are opting to map each intensty value (either lin or log) to a digital sample without banding implies a finite range that can be represented. Unless you want your image to look like a water color. :smile:

As such, the bitdepth indeed affects DR. Certainly you can use increased bitdepth to make finer gradations within a given range.... but in the specific RED case of going from 12 to 14 bits off the improved Monstro sensor, it's going to be used to preserve the additional DR of the better sensor. They already have shown the gradations within the image are fine.

However, as with any complex subject, this is a simplification for the sake of a forum answer, and hence YMMV.

-sc
 
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