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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

RED ONE / DSMC 1 upgrade program finally has an end date.

Yes, I know I could upgrade to Weapon 6K, but its crazy to me that I would have to drop 35K on the upgrade to maintain the same functionality of the camera I currently have... With the same sensor...

This, exactly.

Epic Dragon is still an amazing camera, and can be had at a very steep discount.
 
Tom Hamilton said:
Yes, I know I could upgrade to Weapon 6K, but its crazy to me that I would have to drop 35K on the upgrade to maintain the same functionality of the camera I currently have... With the same sensor...

This, exactly.

Epic Dragon is still an amazing camera, and can be had at a very steep discount.
Click to expand...

Could not agree more.
 
Just out of curiosity, what does Red do with the cameras that comes back to them?

In this upgrade program, Red one Mx worths as much as Red Epic X, so may i ask a favor here? Can i trade my Red on Mx for one of the Epic X that will come back to you? I can pay for that.

Or if a Red Epic x owner is about to pay for the upgrade program and is willing to make some cash, just contact me and let's make a deal, the Red one Mx worths as much as the Epic X in the upgrade program..
 
That's disappointing to hear.

As an independent, budget filmmaker, the R1MX is my go to camera and though I understand the prices for better and lighter models, to say you will no longer service R1MX seems like a disservice to those on a budget. I try to be as honest as possible, so here is the first thing that came to my mind.. "I cant afford the other RED models so I will sell my mx for about 5-8k and go to kenfinity because they have an equivalent look, DR, and they cost a quarter of the price of RED's equivalent. I don't feel angry or mad, I can understand the business move, but I guess I am disappointed because you guys seem to be taking a step away from the low budget filmmakers that want to shoot quality s35, with this move.
People tend to forget that Peter Jackson, James Cameron, etc, all started from square one as well. It feels like by making this move, you may be unintentionally stepping away from the future James Camerons' and Peter Jacksons'. One rule any good Independent filmmaker uses is "work with a great vision, even without a great budget". Now I feel like I can no longer do that with RED. Whether this was intentional or unintentional, I believe you may be alienating the up and coming visionaries with this move. But hey, we don't really put filet mignon on your dinner plate each night with our low budget purchases, we are more concerned with being able to feed our cast & crew with pizza and pasta as a "thank you for your free service" payment. The funny irony to all this is that, the initial RED vision of providing a digital film look on a budget was exactly what separated you from super expensive ARRI (in my opinion.)
I guess I am not asking you to change this decision, this decision is just a small piece of the pie really. All I am asking is that you remember the little guy because you were at one time the little guy.
 
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sam haboush said:
That's disappointing to hear.

As an independent, budget filmmaker, the R1MX is my go to camera and though I understand the prices for better and lighter models, to say you will no longer service R1MX seems like a disservice to those on a budget. I try to be as honest as possible, so here is the first thing that came to my mind.. "I cant afford the other RED models so I will sell my mx for about 5-8k and go to kenfinity because they have an equivalent look, DR, and they cost a quarter of the price of RED's equivalent. I don't feel angry or mad, I can understand the business move, but I guess I am disappointed because you guys seem to be taking a step away from the low budget filmmakers that want to shoot quality s35, with this move.
People tend to forget that Peter Jackson, James Cameron, etc, all started from square one as well. It feels like by making this move, you may be unintentionally stepping away from the future James Camerons' and Peter Jacksons'. One rule any good Independent filmmaker uses is "work with a great vision, even without a great budget". Now I feel like I can no longer do that with RED. Whether this was intentional or unintentional, I believe you may be alienating the up and coming visionaries with this move. But hey, we don't really put filet mignon on your dinner plate each night with our low budget purchases, we are more concerned with being able to feed our cast & crew with pizza and pasta as a "thank you for your free service" payment. The funny irony to all this is that, the initial RED vision of providing a digital film look on a budget was exactly what separated you from super expensive ARRI (in my opinion.)
I guess I am not asking you to change this decision, this decision is just a small piece of the pie really. All I am asking is that you remember the little guy because you were at one time the little guy.
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The R1 has been out for 10 years. It was not what you would consider budget/indie film camera when it was first released. I paid about $35K to get into it with all of the accessories. It's a testament to RED that the R1 is still in the conversation at this point. It's only an indie/low budget price point because there are several generations of cameras now and R1 has dropped to very low prices. Scarlet W can be had for less than I paid to get into R1 back in 2006.

I would be wary of going with a company like Kinefinity only because I don't know if they will have the same longevity and market penetration that RED has. But, if you need to move away from RED, there is Blackmagic Design, Panasonic, Sony, and you can even find Alexa Classics for a bargain now. There are tons of cameras for every budget level. Having grown up in a time when it wasn't this easy to get a hold of a great camera at minimal cost, I have to say there is nothing holding back this generation of filmmakers. If you own a R1, shoot the heck out of it until it dies. If it does, buy another body for under $2K. Still an amazing camera. Or buy into a different company.

RED hasn't abandoned anybody, they are just doing what they feel is necessary to sustain their business. If their business model is bad, people will stop buying cameras from them. But I think at the moment, that model is still appealing to many people.
 
Well, in the short while since I last posted, I've noticed many more Scarlet and Epic MX and Dragons going up for sale. I think the support deadline and the general upgrades to DSMC2 is starting to hit people more and more. Even auctions that have been posted again and again for months now just aren't moving. Again, I think the cost of accessories is what kills it for a lot of people, especially the media costs. You look around and see weird things like RED 19mm rod clamps being listed for roughly $200 when you can get similar clamps for $40 on Amazon. Heck, it's just a metal block with some screw holes drilled out of it but if it's RED brand or "RED compatible" then it's apparently worth far more I guess. Again, I would love to upgrade to an Epic and I know some folks may feel strongly about this but, personally, I'm not paying more than $3,000 for a used Epic brain, not these days. For about that much money I could get a new Nikon D850 which not only gives me way more use for stills but also gives me a full frame 4K camera. Even though it may not be RAW video that's never stopped me before. Then, for even less than that, I could pick up a used Sony FS700R and use it with my Shogun to record from the 4K RAW output. There's far too many options on the low end these days that uses conventional SSDs and memory cards with more coming out faster and faster plus even the middle ground is getting exciting with the Canon C200 and Panasonic EVA1. Then the elephant in the room, if you wanted to spend more, is the RED DSMC2 cameras themselves, they offer so much and take a good deal of hassle out of the process with other codecs built in, more resolution, auto-black shading, and the steady (and current) support platform. All I'm saying is, if I couldn't afford to upgrade and wanted to sell a DSMC1 camera, I would sell it now for whatever I could while I could because the value is going to drop more and more.
 
sam haboush said:
That's disappointing to hear.

As an independent, budget filmmaker, the R1MX is my go to camera and though I understand the prices for better and lighter models, to say you will no longer service R1MX seems like a disservice to those on a budget. ......
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@sam, there are hard technical realities when it comes to servicing a 10 year old digital cinema camera, which is why nobody out there does that. Not purely a business move, but logistically and cost-wise something nearly impossible to support at this point.

I just dropped $$,$$$ yesterday to RED and still can somehow say that they have a line-up that still works for many levels of filmmakers via Raven and Scarlet-W in particular, both of which come in below the "OG" price of the RED One. And personally (and honestly shown through much testing) the Dragon and Helium sensor technology in particular are vastly superior to Mysterium-X, which to me is a big deal.

Raven in particular, and most recently, the full blown shooting package that you can now get from the Apple store for sub-$15K is a hell of a thing. That's about half than most people's bare shooting setup for an R1. That was/is RED's effort to help out the "little guy".

And another personal note, since RED has allowed you to upgrade the RED One to something like a Scarlet-W, that's something that everybody should have looked at very hard.

Remember, the RED One is not one generation back, but two. R1>DSMC>DSMC2. DSMC2 is the current and likely the focus until 2020-ish, perhaps longer. RED has stated that.
 
Zack Birlew said:
Well, in the short while since I last posted, .....
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No offence, but those full resolution stills from the D850 are supppper muddy. Muddy as in there's some heavy handed noise reduction going on under the hood masking a great deal of that detail even at ISO 1250. I have better pure resolution stills of a Sony A7RII and Canon 5DsR today.

And yep, DSMC used prices are of course dropping.

And I also saw an Alexa go for sub-$9K this week.

This is part of the process as new (and better) motion picture technology is released.

On a side note, RED's about to have some larger sensor competition for the first time in a while, though in the $50-$60K arena. It will be interesting to see how Sony's latest effort impacts the landscape. Canon will be coming shortly. Vision Research also has a weird thing coming.
 
Phil Holland said:
No offence, but those full resolution stills from the D850 are supppper muddy. Muddy as in there's some heavy handed noise reduction going on under the hood masking a great deal of that detail even at ISO 1250. I have better pure resolution stills of a Sony A7RII and Canon 5DsR today.

And yep, DSMC used prices are of course dropping.

And I also saw an Alexa go for sub-$9K this week.

This is part of the process as new (and better) motion picture technology is released.

On a side note, RED's about to have some larger sensor competition for the first time in a while, though in the $50-$60K arena. It will be interesting to see how Sony's latest effort impacts the landscape. Canon will be coming shortly. Vision Research also has a weird thing coming.
Click to expand...

I also don't think he's wrong. Obviously tech changes which is fine. I could afford the upgrade, but he's not wrong, the brand new stack of accessories you have to buy does make it really hard to afford. There is a huge gap missing from the line IMO.

The Weapon MG was a great fit for me and what I'd really love to jump up to at a lesser cost than say the Epic-W, and the Carbon Dragon is really pricey to keep basically the same specs as an Epic Dragon, albeit better processing or whatever. To get into DSMC 2 from an Epic Dragon, while you get a great value on any option you basically have to sell and downgrade, which is pointless, or come up with 25-50K. Its a huge jump, and sadly there really isn't anything in the middle that is affordable other than downgrading.
 
I'm totally OK if the answer is no, but Brent or Jarred, my family was seriously affected by the flooding here in Houston area and the money I had set aside to upgrade my scarlet dragon will be going to repairs on our homes as we didn't have flood insurance since we aren't in a flood plain. Any chance I could get an extension on the upgrade deadline? Like I said, I understand if the answer is no, but my mother always said the answer is definitely no if you don't ask.
 
Not sure if this was answered already, but will the MX sensor be a part of the sensor swapping program? I really dig the MX look and makes me hesitate selling my R1MX. But if an MX sensor could be put in a Scarlet-W... well that would be very interesting.
 
Andrew, sorry to hear about your predicament, though sounds like everyone is safe and well at least, houses can be rebuilt after all! Good luck with you pressing issues! Hopefully one of the RED team is able to help you out with a small extension :-)
 
A CHARITY-question to Jared (& Jannard) !

Perhaps this is not the right forum, but since the FireChief often is present here, I will put forth an old request from the Scarlet MX-users ...

7 years ago and later, many users saw this Scarlet-video : https://vimeo.com/31222500

where J & J shot at 120 FPS in 3K (8:1 and 1/250) and apparently at a different (lost ?) camera called Scarlet X8 .

However this generated some logical wondering, even some criticism like :

"RED One does 4.5 K - is Scarlet MX's capabilities limited artificially to protect Epic's sale and future ?"

As far as I have read & understand it, the Scarlet MX-sensors are actually Epic-sensors failing the 5K speed at 24-30 FPS and so far that seems economical/ecological reuse of "handicapped" sensors . The sale and swap-offer for MX-owners of the Dragon-sensors made Scarlet much better of course . But this upgrade-offer was expensive and non-existent today .
A funny notice is that Scarlet AGAIN ended with the number 12 fps Burst Mode - though this time at 6K Full Format ... ;-)

So in the corridors there's been hopefull rumours about a possible capability-change in the MX-sensor . We dont need the extinct, expensive 5K upgrade through Dragon sensors - but a 4.5 K option could help many indies . Personally I shoot at 4K WS (2,4:1) and having only 18 FPS for HDR-X feels like a bitter limit; 24/25 FPS is MY first wish to beg for ...

Well, I guess a lot of people would pay for a 4.5k firmware update, yet I would pay for just a HDR-X firmware update - BUT as a gesture to the filmindustry and the many indies having spent a lot; I think You wonderfull RED-creators should donate a HDR-X firmware update at least ! *** Up to 24/25 FPS at 4K WS 2,4:1 ! ***
And if such a firmware-update unlocks 4.5 K option the other poor Scarlet MX-indies would love RED forever ! Right ?

With all respect
And kindest greetings

Thomas D.
An indie, son of a danish legendary movie-editor .

NB : Originally this was first disussed in --- http://reduser.net/forum/showthread...S-test&highlight=Scarlet+internal+120FPS+test
 
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I didn't actually know this video was shot on a Scarlet. Always thought it was Epic. Pretty clean for a Scarlet in 1K, I never usually go lower than 3k WS, but the compression on this web video is pretty severe. Anyways, back in the day it was a killer feature for a low budgeters, most of low end was something like 50-60P heavily compressed .h264 in 720P.

I've done some tests recently, just to check how Scarlet MX 2k@75fps & 1k@120fps compares to say, Sony A6500 1080P@120FPS in S-Log2. No wonder, Sony was the winner in this battle. My Scarlet MX introduces lots of noise at 2K, and pretty much loses fine detail. The fun thing is, if you place a person against a forest - there are better detail at a person, but almost none in the background on Sony due to compression, and on a Scarlet there are way less detail on a human, and much more detail in the forest.

Though, even at 3K@60fps Scarlet leaves the Sony's way behind in terms of overall image quality (fine detail, noise etc).

Speaking of upgrading features - years have passed, Red released latest firmware upgrade and is leaving DSMC1 cameras on a shelf. Forget it, upgrade the body to a used Epic MX, if you want more. There will be no changes to MX line in the future.
 
Never say never in RED land.

The R1 was part of this last upgrade cycle, even though many times it was stated as completely EOL'ed.

I wouldn't be too surprised if, at some point when it won't canablize sales of new cameras, RED released a firmware for legacy cameras that gave it a little bump. Kind of like a thank you to DSMC1 owners. (Maybe when DSMC3 starts rolling out?)

Sounds exactly like the type of thing RED would do lol.
 
I don't see why a company like RED would spend time updating firmware on an EOL camera instead of making new things. I am glad they invested their resources on making the image quality better for everyone (even your Scarlet MX) rather than add performance they never intended to an entry-level RED.
 
I think a firmware upgrade to 4.5k is probably possible on Scarlet MX. It would make a lot of Scarlet owners happy. The camera is not that old and still produces beautiful images.
 
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