RED IS KILLING OUR CREATIVITY - Need Help With Workflow!

[Sam Mantini]

Hello,

Last year we bought a the Epic-W and were excited to start shooting with it. Fast forward 1 year and we are on the verge of selling it due to frustration with workflow.

We are a small team of 3 who travel a lot and edit on a fully specced out 2017 Macbook pro laptop when on the road and a fully specced out 2014 iMac with 5K display when at the office.

Both computers have SSD's and we are editing in Adobe Premiere Pro and After Effects.

Or biggest issue since switching from DSLR to RED is now we find ourselves pulling out our hair just waiting for import, render and export times which COMPLETELY KILLS OUR CREATIVITY and it gets to the point where even the smallest edits becomes a nightmare.

We need to figure out is the best workflow to go from: Shooting -> Editing -> Colour -> Effects -> Exporting.


OUR CURRENT WORKFLOW.

1. Shooting: RED RAW
2. Backup on: Seagate 8TB External Hard Drive/s (Yes, we know we can get faster hard drives but each project requires a minimum of 8TB + Backup so $ is a factor)
3. Import in: Premier Pro (Sometimes ingesting and proxying with Media Encoder if it is a large project)
4. Edit in: Premier Pro
5. Send some clips to: After Effects for transitions, 3D tracking and/or titles.
6. Colour in: Premier Pro (With lumetri/LUTs)
7. Export with: H.264 YouTube 4K settings.


Typically we could do a simple 3-5 minute video with this workflow using footage from a DLSR in 1 day, with the RED the same project takes a week if not more.

We are ordering the iMac pro fully specced out today and are heavily considering switching to Final Cut Pro X but before selling the RED, we wanted to see if anyone was able to help us figure out the ultimate workflow for editing so we can get back to worrying about creativity and not tech specs.

Thank you!

 

[Sabovic Adis]

1) Shoot 2K or HD ProRes, not RED RAW...

 

[Jordan Beard]

Are you editing off the 8TB Seagate backup drives? Their low speed could be causing a bottleneck and slowing down your whole workflow. There's no reason simply editing with .R3Ds should add a week to your post process.

 

[Phil Holland]

Or biggest issue since switching from DSLR to RED is now we find ourselves pulling out our hair just waiting for import, render and export times which COMPLETELY KILLS OUR CREATIVITY

Your workflow is what's killing your creativity.

What Šabović is pretty much dead on and it sounds like based on your system specifications you might be better off with a proxy based workflow or perhaps even a transcode to intermediate codec workflow (i.e. RWG/Log3G10 ProRes 422 HQ in 4K from whatever your source material is).

Interestingly you're on Epic-W and your data rates aren't that huge, but some other things you should explore:
- Internal or external RAID 0 SSD Work Volume
- Modern USB 3.1 Gen 2 or Thunderbolt 3 connections for your work volumes and perhaps even backup solutions (USB 3.1 Gen 2 is backwards compatible)
- If you are looking to build a desktop you have access to much more powerful and fast workflows, especially if using multiple GPUs and fast disk arrays.

I work in native REDCODE RAW all over the world, for the last two years mainly 8K 5:1 Compression Ratio, in hotel rooms on a big beefy custom notebook and I do explore native REDCODE editing and post workflows, but that's certainly not the only way of working.

Your Premiere Pro workflow will work fine with whatever system your upgrading to, but you need to get into the mindset of adapting to the workflow that best fits your hardware.


Side note. Don't sell your camera, upgrade your computer. A big part of smaller teams stepping up to more professional level cameras is you'll likely want to upgrade your hardware accordingly. It's sort of the additional X factor if you are looking to do things quicker. There's about 8 tiers of current hardware configurations from entry level prices to "OMG I could have bought a fleet of Teslas" and at the moment. The newest iMac Pro is actually pretty decent and should fit your needs overall and it will provide the landscape to get into speedier connections. That said there's about 5-6 tiers of hardware above that in terms of price points and performance levels, but that's mostly outside of the Mac ecosystem.

 

[ignacio guzman]

The problem is not the epic w. The problem is that your post work flow is still optimized for DSLR and not red. There are multiple avenues you could go. If you love your Mac and insist on using a MacBook Pro on the road make sure you shoot prores as well in camera. It saves time when creating proxies. If you still want to edit in r3d then you will need a high end windows laptop. To help supplement the speed here I would also recommend you stop using cheap 8tb backup drives to do your edits and spend some money on a g tech shuttle. The latest ones have an advertised read/ write of 1000 mb a second. real world will probs get you 600-750.

 

[DJ Meyer]

Yeah a lot of things in this workflow individually are not show-stoppers but added together will be painful.

If you are editing off a single disk external 8TB drive, that is way too slow for reasonable performance.

You are limiting yourself to 4 core macs with weak GPUs and limited memory.

Also using Adobe CC which is not particularly optimized to begin with (especially AE) - and even more so on OS X.

What size are your timelines? Are you editing in an 8K timeline and then exporting to 4K? You didn't specify.

The loaded iMac Pro will help a lot but you're still going to need at least mediocre storage performance added to that.

Are you wedded to OSX? If so then yes you should look at FCPx. If you are more concerned with sticking to Adobe then you'll be better off with a PC and a couple of 1080 Ti or similar.

 

[Sam Mantini]

Yes, unfortunately due to the size of the projects we do. For instance, we are shooting 4x 20+ min videos for a product launch and each video requires a ton of B-roll so we are easily shooting between 6-8TB of footage then we would need a backup...

Perhaps we use the seagate drives for backing up only and then get G-Drives for editing...

I think the biggest reason it adds time is because of the rendering needed to watch 8K RAW in full quality to ensure it cuts well with the music.

 

[Sam Mantini]

If you do not mind me asking, what custom notebook are you using to edit with?

With regards to transcoding/proxies, we shoot a ton of run and gun travel videos and we find that transcoding/proxying takes a long time to create. On our last project it took 15 hours to create proxies for the entire project.

We can shoot 422 proxies in camera but then we run the risk of running out of memory while in the field.

If you do not mind me asking, after you are done shooting in 8K RAW, what do you do to optimize working remotely? What hard drives do you use, do you proxy within premier pro and how do you colour grade your footage?

 

[Sam Mantini]

I think the common solution is upgrading the hard drives to G-Drive or something equivalent.

Perhaps we grossly underestimated how slow cheap drives are.

 

[Sam Mantini]

Our timelines are typically between 5-10 minutes with a few projects between 3-5 and 15-20 minutes.

We tend to export the final cut in 4K and work in a 4K timeline.

The guy I work with who also owns the company is relatively wedded to OSX and is buying the iMac Pro as we speak... so I don't think he would want to change to PC any time soon.

As mentioined, I think the common factor is the hard drives we use, so G-Drives combined with the new iMac will definitely yield faster results.

 

[Frank Glencairn]

I think the biggest reason it adds time is because of the rendering needed to watch 8K RAW in full quality to ensure it cuts well with the music.

WTF? I can see this at 0.5k - why do you think you need to see this at 8k?

 

[Chris Kennedy]

Ok I have a newer Mac setup/RAIDs for editing and backup, and have been shooting exclusively on my Weapon Helium for a year now (I'm holding out on upgrading until either a new Mac Pro or what the next iteration of the iMac Pro would be).
I had a similar workflow and definitely know the frustration when coloring and exporting in Premiere Pro-but you've got to think a bit outside of the box and experiment with a workflow which better suits your needs, hardware, and deadlines.

My workflow is similar to yours up to step #4. Which I'd then create an EDL and depending on the project I'd either open that project in RedCine X or Davinci Resolve and do my grade. Then do my final export there too.

Adding any filters/effects to the 8k r3ds in Premiere Pro literally makes it unusable for me to even playback at 1/16 res. (I have no problems playing back 1/4 res if there's no filters) I keep it at the default DC2/RG4 knowing that'll go to IPP2 in my grade. And Premiere Pro doesn't yet do Tetrahedral 3D LUT Interpolation so you'd have a greater chance of banding in your grade-so ideally you should grade elsewhere too.

Sure you could do a proxy workflow, and/or also shoot a 4k prores in camera for most of your projects-which judging by your first post would more then likely be ideal for your current setup and delivery/final export methods.

 

[Björn Benckert]

Shoot r3d + proxies.
Edit proxies.
Export XML.
Then move to Resolve.


Or if you like your SLR workflow, shoot 4444 prores 2k or such with REDWIDEGAMUT flat or such.

Dont use single spinning drives. It will drive you nuts.

A 8Tb raid with two drives will not cost much more than a single drive 8tb but will give you twice the speed.

 

[Mike P.]

If you're used to DSLRs, than you're used to having to white balance (or did you use auto?), so definitely consider 2k or 4k prores... playback issues will be gone and render times will be exponentially faster (prores-to-prores and even prores-to-h264 takes no time). Granted this essentially nullifies RED's biggest perk (shooting raw), but at least it gives you an 8k>4k or 2k downscale at S35+.

That said, one could argue that it isn't so much RED that's killing your creativity (granted raw is another layer of complexity), so much as its Mirrorless/DSLRs that have spoiled you Heh heh... Mirrorless/SLRs are so light/quick/easy, it makes shooting/editing/filesizes on anything else feel waaaayyyyy more cumbersome by comparison.

 

[ignacio guzman]

the g drives will make a huge difference. I do think shooting prores in camera at 4k will also help. There will be no need to create proxies in your NLE. The drawback is that the redmags formatted in UHF take a lot longer to mount on OSX than fat32 formatted cards. If you plan of "onlining" back to the original r3d for export it's also a bit of a pain in the ass on the back end but it's not a heavy of a lift compared to transcoding from the NLE up front. Ive shot tons of long format travel stuff on dsmc2. doing this will help you have a more pleasant experience.

 

[Blair Thornton]

Your workflow is what's killing your creativity.

Don't sell your camera, upgrade your computer. A big part of smaller teams stepping up to more professional level cameras is you'll likely want to upgrade your hardware accordingly. It's sort of the additional X factor if you are looking to do things quicker. There's about 8 tiers of current hardware configurations from entry level prices to "OMG I could have bought a fleet of Teslas" and at the moment. The newest iMac Pro is actually pretty decent and should fit your needs overall and it will provide the landscape to get into speedier connections. That said there's about 5-6 tiers of hardware above that in terms of price points and performance levels, but that's mostly outside of the Mac ecosystem.

I agree with Phil, upgrade your hardware.

I do a RED raw workflow with a 2016 MacBook Pro (although, only 4K) but I use fast Thunderbolt Raid for production AND backup.

Using single drives for backups is wasting your valuable time.

Here's how I'm doing it, and yes I use Final Cut Pro X because it works better and is notably faster: http://www.girafxmedia.com/?p=804

ADDITTION: If you're attempting to work with 6K or 8K red media on a Mac laptop, I highly suggest investing heavily in a fast SSD Raid. Use enterprise level SSD's https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1307675-REG/samsung_mz_7lm3t8ne_pm863a_series_3_84tb_2_5.html in a Thunderbolt3 enclosure https://www.akitio.com/portable-storage/akitio-thunder3-quad-mini or try the new OWC Thunderblade https://eshop.macsales.com/shop/owc-thunderblade-v4

I can't stress highly enough how much FCPX is better optimized for Mac hardware AND that fast media is required. In my tests, the Mac laptop can handle 8K raw if on fast media like internal SSD or external Raid. Target yourself at 800Mb/sec minimal for 8K production work, so that rules out 2.5" hard drives - even using 4 in a Raid set.

 

[Mike P.]

ADDITTION: If you're attempting to work with 6K or 8K red media on a Mac laptop, I highly suggest investing heavily in a fast SSD Raid. Use enterprise level SSD's https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1307675-REG/samsung_mz_7lm3t8ne_pm863a_series_3_84tb_2_5.html in a Thunderbolt3 enclosure https://www.akitio.com/portable-storage/akitio-thunder3-quad-mini or try the new OWC Thunderblade https://eshop.macsales.com/shop/owc-thunderblade-v4

I can't stress highly enough how much FCPX is better optimized for Mac hardware AND that fast media is required. In my tests, the Mac laptop can handle 8K raw if on fast media like internal SSD or external Raid. Target yourself at 800Mb/sec minimal for 8K production work, so that rules out 2.5" hard drives - even using 4 in a Raid set.

I really don't understand this; 4k 6:1 is ~55mb/s data throughput, so how does having 800mb/s make a difference? Even Epic-W (in camera writing 8k files continuously in real-time at higher than 24fps) maxes out at 275mb/s, so how come you'd need 800mb/s just to play back (and usually a 1/4 res, which would be even easier)?

 

[Blair Thornton]

I really don't understand this; 4k 6:1 is ~55mb/s data throughput, so how does having 800mb/s make a difference? Even Epic-W (in camera writing 8k files continuously in real-time at higher than 24fps) maxes out at 275mb/s, so how come you'd need 800mb/s just to play back (and usually a 1/4 res, which would be even easier)?

For 8K work, I was recommending 800 Mb/sec on your Raid. For 4K work, I manage with a 500Mb/sec Raid. Keep in mind, as a spinning platter gets full, your speeds decrease.

I have my Raid written with all the RED media copied on first, so empty it get's the full 500Mb/sec. Yes, you say you only need 85Mb/sec for 5:1 4K. I know, but as your drive gets full and files are fragmented it slows down dramatically. So go for as much speed as possible with your media. You will not regret that decision.

My raid is now almost full and I'm only getting ~ 300Mb/sec. More than the 85Mb/sec for 5:1 so it's working really well.

If you use spinning drives, you're wise to over engineer your Raid specs. Headroom is required for fragmentation (spinning hd's) and platter physics.

If you look at Sam's case, he's using a single 8Tb drive (likely USB3) so the drive gets 180Mb/sec when empty. His 8K RAW footage needs 275Mb/sec for playback, so if he's working from the external HD, he's already suffering. When the drive gets full, his speeds decrease further, adding to the workflow pain.

 

[Sam Mantini]

Ok I have a newer Mac setup/RAIDs for editing and backup, and have been shooting exclusively on my Weapon Helium for a year now (I'm holding out on upgrading until either a new Mac Pro or what the next iteration of the iMac Pro would be).
I had a similar workflow and definitely know the frustration when coloring and exporting in Premiere Pro-but you've got to think a bit outside of the box and experiment with a workflow which better suits your needs, hardware, and deadlines.

My workflow is similar to yours up to step #4. Which I'd then create an EDL and depending on the project I'd either open that project in RedCine X or Davinci Resolve and do my grade. Then do my final export there too.

Adding any filters/effects to the 8k r3ds in Premiere Pro literally makes it unusable for me to even playback at 1/16 res. (I have no problems playing back 1/4 res if there's no filters) I keep it at the default DC2/RG4 knowing that'll go to IPP2 in my grade. And Premiere Pro doesn't yet do Tetrahedral 3D LUT Interpolation so you'd have a greater chance of banding in your grade-so ideally you should grade elsewhere too.

Sure you could do a proxy workflow, and/or also shoot a 4k prores in camera for most of your projects-which judging by your first post would more then likely be ideal for your current setup and delivery/final export methods.

With regards to sending a EDL to RedCine or Resolve, what happens to all the effects I did in After Effects? Do people typically do the grade before the effects? I would assume not because you would want the grade to be on the effects as well...

Also, if I proxy, do I need to convert it back to the R3D files before adding effects?

 

[Phil Holland]

Everybody here is giving solid advice and that's the good news.

Perhaps we use the seagate drives for backing up only and then get G-Drives for editing...

As mentioned, those are slow as death. Good for backup and redundant copies, but not great to edit off of. If you do get a system that does have a TB3 or USB 3.1 Gen 2 port, work on getting a 4-6X disk RAID as a working volume. That will make your life easier.

Even better if you can do it internally off of say a RAID controller, but that's a different world.

If you do not mind me asking, what custom notebook are you using to edit with?

It's unfortunately not on the market, but my last one was MSI and features 3X SSD RAIDs, it costs a fair bit of cash however. For the last 4 years I've built one a year for one of my longer term projects that tends to shoot 2-3 months at a time on the road.

The next box I'm building is actually going to be a mobile workstation with nothing but SSDs due to the success I've had with my notebook workflow. Just need a bit more bang for the buck as I'm dealing with weird things like 12-16K stitched material.