RED FOCUS..

[Gunleik Groven]

What camera WOULD you choose for a 4k/UHD Finnish?

 

[Mark L. Pederson]

What camera WOULD you choose for a 4k/UHD Finnish?

Yeah .. Hrvoje's post does really bring up the other annoying gorilla in the room. It's not even about 4K. It's about 1080p RGB. There's files size - 6K raw being kinda the same as 1080 ProRes 444 LOG-C and 4k/UHD ProRes being much bigger - and then there is "easy of use". ProRes drops into anything, transcodes quickly - and it's hard for people to "screw it up". HEVC ... well ... apps are starting to make that "kinda" more usable for edit in some apps - just like R3D. And then we have VP9 coming ... but ... I really see these as delivery codecs and I'm not so convinced they will translate well to acquisition codecs.

And yeah, I understand that people can't seem to wrap their heads around external recorders - and how a "pert of the camera - aka module" is much more appealing.

I don't know how far RED went down the rabbit hole with their Proxy Module - and if it's 100% dead or not - seems to be gone from website now - I do know that the design was a mess and it because it needed to tap the only SDI out of the camera, and RED's design actually pulled a cable around the actual module, etc. - but the design could have been greatly improved IMO by making the module a tiny bit larger and adding an SDI DA - which, technically, you would not even have to do if you had a PRO IO WIFI Module with the same specs I detailed

I guess I have to wonder ... what if RED rebooted the proxy module - HD (1920x1080) ProRes only - skip the DNxHD and H264 - just do HQ, and 444 ProRes - with a slightly better design .... I can only imagine RED has spent some hard $$ coding that module already ....

 

[Adam Johnson]

I'm definitely on the fence as far as what camera I will be getting next. Don't get me wrong I would love to own an epic, but it just doesn't make much sense to me considering I can get the same 4k RAW with my Red One MX for far cheaper and less modules to deal with etc. Dragon would be nice too, but my computer is just now ready to plow through 4K in real time...and don't like he idea of going backwards. But more so, it doesn't make sense to drop 30k on an Epic Dragon when it's ready to ship. By then everyone will have there pick of the litter and demand will be down. ROI just isn't there unfortunately. Don't get me wrong I love the small form factor of the Epic (for my own personal needs) as I simply love small 5D DSLR form factor. But, I do also enjoy and miss the ENG form factor. I would like to own both options actually.

Right now I own a studio cinema camera - my Red One MX and a small run n gun in the BMCC. But I can see myself upgrading to a GH4K or another small form factor DSLR 4K camera from the BMCC and sticking with my Red One. What has my attention is seeing what Panasonic does with the 4k varicam...that could be a very interesting option if it's priced right! But what can I say, I'm the gun shy garbage pale type that enjoys buying the cheap left over throw aways like the Red One MX and squeezing all the life I can get out of her considering how powerful see is. I kind of like to think the Red One MX is like Peyton Manning in his older prime. It's one hell of a camera with plenty of good years left (if it can hold up physically that is!). It's like having Wayne Gretzky on my team in his prime for the minimum salary! I never ever have to worry about ROI and rentals, etc.

Moreover, I expect NAB will be very interesting this year with a boat load of new 4k options in all sorts of shapes, sizes, & flavors. But I will admit for the 2nd year in a row that I'm worried our favorite guys won't have anything to trump the competition with. I know that's not what it's about. But it sure helps to make a statement at big events like these. And let's face it - Dragon has been Reds prize possession and big announcement at the last 3 NAB's.

I think if RED has something to announce like what BMCC has done the last two years creating all sorts of intrigue and excitement it would be absolutely stellar (even if they are late getting it finished). I think if they fail to create more buzz this year they will continue to fall behind I the eyes of others.

I think Arri & Canon are poised to make big splash announcements this year along with my possible dark hose Panasonic. GoPro is my surprise pick yet again...even though I shouldn't put it past Blackmagic to announce another camera as well! I just hope RED comes out swinging. They have had my love for all these years and I feel sleazy eyeballing, gushing, and ultimately purchasing from the other guys. But a cameraman has his wants and needs after all!

sorry to derail the thread. I just really really really hope RED can get back on track and do everything they can to win over/ back the market

 

[Scott Brown]

What camera WOULD you choose for a 4k/UHD Finnish?

Personal point for us is that we've never been asked for or had to deliver 4K, period. We've also never been able to show 4K to our clients, yes we've talked up the benefits of future-proofing etc. but until now we've had no affordable way of showing 4K. This will obviously change with lower cost displays and projectors coming to market...whatever happened to RED's projector by the way? Is this another much hyped product that will simply fall off the radar? Again, promising product that fails to come to market just damages reputation.

Competitors will fill in the gaps and the market will move very quickly into the UHD/4K arena in 2014. NAB will be full of 4K+ cameras. Sony has already delivered the F55 and F5....both really great cameras that have well thought out efficient workflows that broadcasters like and can integrate. Panasonic will come to market with their 4K offering this year and BMD, Canon and Nikon will all have new cameras. Then there's Arri....for HD/2K they have dominated the market recently and once they transition to 4K, I suspect they will really hurt RED. A 4K Amira would be a simply stunning camera.

I think RED can side-step costly R&D by working with partners....for ProRes, I'm thinking Atmos may be an option? As I've already mentioned for audio, Sound Devices is an obvious choice. I personally think Scarlet should have been a 1080p only camera with ProRes codec...it would have hurt Canon's C300 sales and would have been a very useful camera + it would have sold in vast numbers.

Personally, I think Canon are going to come up with a major surprise this year, the C500 is "almost" a really great camera. The footage is stunning but they need to get the codec/back-end 4K side sorted...if they do then this will be one to watch.

If RED loses market this year it will be a real shame as they very nearly have the world's best camera...the solution is really simple, talk and listen to users on this forum and then sleep tight and let Arri do the worrying.

Scott

 

[Gunleik Groven]

Scott, this thread is open...

And I guess RED is listening.

I guess the Scarlet has sold rather well, from what I see here and elsewhere. And I doubt RED will ever release something that does NOT record RAW. It is about extending user-base, not alienating the broad user-base already in place.
But I agree that a Scarlet with built-in prores 444 option, probably would have done very well in many situations where the C300 has been chosen.
There are situations where the C300 would be chosen anyways, but they prores codec would have been a very good argument for such a solution in many situations I know.
The LCD/viewfinder on the C300 is not really all that cool etc etc etc.
It would probably have been a more broadcast/doco friendly camera.

My guess is that REDs really strong hand for 4k delivery, is what bites a bit for 1080.... REDraw.
It is brilliant. Mark is not kidding. You can compare the size of a prores 4444-1080 file with that of a 6k file.
And even though datarates now are much better than back in 2008, 2,5 GB/sec (for 6k 16-bit) is not easily achieved.
RED-raw is REDs strength, but also achilles heel.
I would think that for 4k deliveries, the strength far outweighs the problems.

But the issue many mention here, is that practically we deliver a lot to 1080/2k markets.
And while DITs were welcome on set in 2010... As more productiontypes adapt to new cameras, the DIT still just follows the bigger ones.
Transcodes are hazels.

I like Marks idea of a "prores 4444/HQ - 1080 only" module for now.
Simply because I do not really see where prores fits into a 4k workflow.

Interesting writeup on the proxy-module...
I thought (silly-me) that it somehow plugged into the multi-contact thingy on the rear of the Epic/Scarlet. not the SDI. If it did take up the SDI and did not include a repeater, I can see why it is put on hold.

The pre-compression full debayer signal out the SDI is really cool, and is easily one of REDs many strengths.

 

[Scott Crawley]

As an owner I understand the desire to capture a larger market, but it is unfair to say that Red has lost it's market. They have not. Red's marketplace has always been the RAW 4k+ cinema marketplace and as far as I can tell they have owned it since day one. It is a narrow definition to be sure but if you want to be the best at anything you have to maintain a narrow focus. This is a very important point because every move that Red makes is defined by this definition so I will restate it: Red is dedicated to 4k+ RAW cinema.

Any implementation of ProRes in the pipeline represents a failure of RAW. That IMHO is why Red continues to resist it. They had the foresight to plan for the day that computing power and storage cost/availability caught up with their format. That day appears to have arrived.

Besides the computational overhead of handling RAW a major part of the argument against it has been that the files are too large, but as Mark recently pointed out 4k RAW is comparable in size to ProRes 444 UHD.

"We have never had to deliver 4k." That has been true up to this point for most of us but the 4k minimum bar requirement was set with an eye for the future. That future has almost arrived. The screens are coming and demand will follow. When 4k screens take hold, 1080 will finally die as Jim predicted. Don't give up the fight in the championship rounds. AFAIK, every argument against 4k RAW is now becoming mute. I believe that is why the module died.


4k+ RAW cinema was at least a fifteen year plan. Stay the course it's time is nigh.



Jarred has stated a few times now that Jim has removed himself from PR but remains at the helm of Red though I don't doubt that Jarred's responsibilities have expanded far beyond PR. I think Jarred is doing a kick ass job with PR by the way, kudos to him.

 

[Mark L. Pederson]

As an owner I understand the desire to capture a larger market, but it is unfair to say that Red has lost it's market. They have not. Red's marketplace has always been the RAW 4k+ cinema marketplace and as far as I can tell they have owned it since day one. It is a narrow definition to be sure but if you want to be the best at anything you have to maintain a narrow focus. This is a very important point because every move that Red makes is defined by this definition so I will restate it: Red is dedicated to 4k+ RAW cinema.

Any implementation of ProRes in the pipeline represents a failure of RAW. That IMHO is why Red continues to resist it. They had the foresight to plan for the day that computing power and storage cost/availability caught up with their format. That day appears to have arrived.

Besides the computational overhead of handling RAW a major part of the argument against it has been that the files are too large, but I believe someone recently pointed out that 4k RAW is comparable in size to ProRes 444 UHD.

"We have never had to deliver 4k." That has been true up to this point for most of us but the 4k minimum bar requirement was set with an eye for the future. That future has almost arrived. The screens are coming and demand will follow. When 4k screens take hold, 1080 will finally die as Jim predicted. Don't give up the fight in the championship rounds. AFAIK, every argument against 4k RAW is now becoming mute. I believe that is why the module died.


4k+ RAW cinema was at least a fifteen year plan. Stay the course it's time is nigh.



Jarred has stated a few times now that Jim has removed himself from PR but remains at the helm of Red though I don't doubt that Jarred's responsibilities have expanded far beyond PR. I think Jarred is doing a kick ass job with PR by the way, kudos to him.

Great post.

But I do NOT think that "Any implementation of ProRes in the pipeline represents a failure of RAW".

 

[Scott Crawley]

Great post.

But I do NOT think that "Any implementation of ProRes in the pipeline represents a failure of RAW".

I might agree with you in a general sense but very strictly speaking and from a Red POV it does. The goal for them is to provide all of the benefits of RAW from capture all the way up to the creation of a final deliverable. ProRes falls outside of that, don't you think?

Oh, and thank you. Coming from you that is a huge compliment.

 

[Mark L. Pederson]

I might agree with you in a general sense but very strictly speaking and from a Red POV it does. The goal for them is to provide all of the benefits of RAW from capture up until the creation of a final deliverable. ProRes falls outside of that, don't you think?

I think their goal would be to continue to grow and innovate as a company - get new customers - have current customers remain loyal, etc.

The Dragon sensor is amazing - blows my mind every time I look at new footage - HDRx on Dragon is a total mind melt. So ... what exactly is "against RED's mission" to make their technology able to cross more markets?

If more users can make money on 1080 projects to pay the bills and invest more in RED products - grinding away "anti-RED perceptions" - while the delivery and post world crawls kicking and screaming to the inevitable future of 4K and UHD ... I just don't think that's a bad thing.

ARRI took their same sensor tech and just streamlined and targeted a bigger, different market. That is SMART in anyone's book. Regardless of the price of the camera. ARRI is betting on 4K delivery and post being "common" a few years out - and they are OBVIOUSLY working towards a 4K solution. Meanwhile - what they are doing NOW is expanding the market of people that use ARRI cameras - and continuing to make DPs, operators and ACs LIKE the brand because of good, functioning design.

Again, for me personally, a "PRO IO WIFI MODULE 2.0" and a "PRO AUDIO IO MODULE" are more important than a PRORES Proxy module - but I target a specific market - and I know for a fact - MORE RED cameras have been sold to people who work in broader markets creating content that only wants 1080 delivery TODAY.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

I might agree with you in a general sense but very strictly speaking and from a Red POV it does. The goal for them is to provide all of the benefits of RAW from capture up until the creation of a final deliverable. ProRes falls outside of that, don't you think?

Not at all.
Prores/proxies has its place even when you do a "raw" (non-file-transcoded but realtime decoded) finnish in larger workflows.
Not so much for one-man-band production, but in broadcast and feature, definitely.

RED has never refused me or the productions I have been working on as customers, because we did not finnish in 4k. Rather the oposite!
And I think RED (as Jim has stated a few times) is a "business".
That wants to keep and expand customer- and userbase.
RED is somewhat "On a mission" as to transforming the high-end cinema-camera world. And what we are discussing here, is much due to REDs success at that...
But RED still is "a business"

And it does NOT exclude the "RAW" strengths to use RGB, it is just a way to avoid all the pitfalls after capture and before online.
It is part of many workflows as it is.

And has been since 2007...

Allowing direct prores capture, would NOT take away from the advantage of capturing raw. It would probably just expand userbase. (And as many have pointed out, THAT is exactly what we have done for a few years in many setups...)

We have all "worked around" since day one, as we do not live in the future.
Many of the films on REDs "shot on RED" page on red.com is delivered at 2k.

Prores/DPX/EXR/h.264 are all tools we use to make R3D practical in different parts of a production.
That does not take away any of the strengths of RAW capture, which to me are basically these three things:
• Ability to improvement in the decode and colorscience over time.
• Compressability.
• Effective way of saving space without losing quality (that is true even "uncompressed").

BUT
Once we start post, we do NOT practically use "raw"(whichever way we do it, transcoded or not.)
We grade on a debayered RGB image of sorts, often with one or more LUTs and transforms applied.

Raw is a way to capture and store data which is effective and flexible.
But noone finishes "in raw".

Many productions have gone to a 16-bit lin or log "flat/unaltered" RGB decode of what is to be graded and used for plates, to get the most out of the signal.
10-bit log has also been used a lot, and I guess it still is in many workflows.


EDIT:
What Mark says...

 

[Scott Brown]

Scott, enjoyed your post and your enthusiasm.

Red's marketplace has always been the RAW 4k+ cinema marketplace and as far as I can tell they have owned it since day one.

I do wonder how many RED owners have actually delivered anything for the cinema marketplace? Telling our clients that our RED camera was used to shoot big Hollywood movies certainly gave us a competitive advantage initially but now I think that Arri has stolen much of that limelight. In the recent Oscars, Interestingly Arri cameras swept the board. There are also nods to the Cinema EOS cameras and even the GoPro, but the really surprising thing is not a single one of the films was shot on RED.

Personally, we have used RED for BBC broadcast doc work and for corporate work that 100% ends up in H.264 1080p. While RED certainly made a major impact very quickly in digital cinema, I would strongly argue that they have lost considerable ground in this area recently. 2K delivery with Alexa has been deemed perfectly acceptable by many studios and my perception is that producers are becoming more wary of RED than they were.

I'm looking purely at the business proposition, what clients are asking for and what our crews choose to shoot on and in 2013 (In my opinion) RED fell backwards and others gained ground.

Now, for 2014, I do see us starting to deliver our first 4K projects and therefore I'm taking time now to fully take stock and work out if RED is the right camera for us or if we should sell up and move on. For most RED camera owners, our purchases represent a considerable financial investment and understandably we need to know where we are and where the market is headed.

As mentioned, I'm sensing some market resistance to shooting RED and I'd be interested in feedback from others, especially those who rent their cameras. Have you lost ground to Alexa or others? Do you feel Dragon alone is enough to redress the situation? What advice would you give RED on where to go next?

I'm not being negative, just realistic and I'm keen to hear what others are feeling/thinking?

Best wishes

Scott

 

[Scott Crawley]

I defer to you Mark. You live in 4k cinema, I mostly aspire to be there.

A ProRes module would have helped us in the early days because Apple's off the shelf hardware was tuned to it, but if the new hardware can handle RAW well enough what is the benefit of ProRes over RAW going forward? Simplicity? If that is the answer, software developments in post production applications can and are addressing it. If it is possible to open up the API without compromising the IP then that would be the best solution, no?

All of Gunliek's points are certainly valid, but they are focused on the recent past. OK, most of us and the facilities around us are still running last year's hardware or earlier so call it our present if you must, but if the hardware to cement the RAW pipeline is currently available then with huge respect, I say his mode of thinking is dated.

"And it does NOT exclude the "RAW" strengths to use RGB, it is just a way to avoid all the pitfalls after capture and before online."

If the current hardware can edit RAW, aren't the days of offline post behind us? If so which of these pitfalls would persist and how do we avoid them without having to limit ourselves by transcoding out of RAW?

Capturing proxies along side of RAW can undermine RAW because many productions never return to RAW. They cut and finish in ProRes. Is that not true?

No RAW is not a delivery codec. It was never meant to be, but I think the arguments for ProRes in post production are nearing their end.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

Without making this a workflow thread... I think there are many good reasons for prores in "large" workflows for many years to come, even if computers eat RAW for lunch at full debayer...

But that IS besides the main points here...

Argument for prores/RRX in "large" workflows, and prores to compete with C300 ARE different...

 

[Scott Crawley]

Scott, enjoyed your post and your enthusiasm.

I do wonder how many RED owners have actually delivered anything for the cinema marketplace? Telling our clients that our RED camera was used to shoot big Hollywood movies certainly gave us a competitive advantage initially but now I think that Arri has stolen much of that limelight. In the recent Oscars, Interestingly Arri cameras swept the board. There are also nods to the Cinema EOS cameras and even the GoPro, but the really surprising thing is not a single one of the films was shot on RED.

Good question, good point but the fact that more of Red's clients do not work in their target marketplace than those who do, is only a feather in their cap. It means that they are penetrating markets outside of their target.

My question then becomes would you have Red cater to that larger market at the risk of diluting their focus? Their handling of Scarlet tells us what they think. What if it meant devaluing their primary IP, their primary mission... Of which RAW is 1/3?

I am not disheartened that films still are not yet finished in 4k. The screens still for the most part do not demand it, but that is changing. Remember, this was a long term plan and the days that Jim had in his sights when he began are nearing. Arri still has not made the camera that Red will really be competing with directly but is is coming. The real battle is on the horizon.

Edit: I'm inclined to think that it may be possible that the lack of nominations could be related to the whole rebel thing. Rebels are never popular, and popularity plays it's part in Academy selection.

 

[Scott Crawley]

Again, I will defer to you on the large workflow point, but I think workflow is at the heart of the matter. It is at least half, maybe more and should remain a Red focus.

I have not made an itemized list recently, but my instinct is telling me that those pitfalls of staying in RAW are falling away. I know we are tired of addressing workflow and will respect your wish if you do not want to go into that here.

Without making this a workflow thread... I think there are many good reasons for prores in "large" workflows for many years to come, even if computers eat RAW for lunch at full debayer...

But that IS besides the main points here...

Argument for prores/RRX in "large" workflows, and prores to compete with C300 ARE different...

 

[D Fuller]

Again, I will defer to you on the large workflow point, but I think workflow is at the heart of the matter. It is at least half, maybe more and should remain a Red focus.

I would go so far as to say post workflow should be the #2 Red focus, second only to delivering the brain/sensor tech. The other things are, in the end, addressable by others. The r3d SDK is proprietary, so only Red can do that bit.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

Again, I will defer to you on the large workflow point, but I think workflow is at the heart of the matter. It is at least half, maybe more and should remain a Red focus.

I will try not to bite on my own bait...

But I see absolutely no conflict in the desire for realtime R3D playback and grading, and the needs for transcodes/proresmodule.
Conform is more or less a non-issue these days, there are gains in posting in locked-in and controllable colorspaces for a lot of larger workflows.

(Larger workflows is workflows that include many specialized professionals, not necessarily located in the same place and working in parallel on a production where color-management is essential. With the GPU debayering on the road, the "quality" argument (that some argue) for transcodes for final grade, is about to vaporize.)

But again, this part of REDs market is actually kinda working. And has worked very well for a while.

This has little relevance vs Amira/Alexa-prores, F55 non-raw, C500 non-raw and C300
Where a lot of RED-likely work has disappeared and probably can continue to disappear, and is an expanding S35mm market that RED pretty much created by giving many "what they did not know they wanted", but others have seen and come up with simpler ways for an ever exapanding userbase to deliver into...

 

[David Kuhn]

Might this be a situation where the tail ends up wagging the dog? 4K consumer adoption is moving along a typical consumer tech trajectory, and this year we'll see some of the final tech pieces fall into place (HDMI update, mainstream support for 4k from PC's and possibly appliances). By the end of this year (or next year at the outside) we'll likely have large displays entering the pricing sweet spot. Once 4k adoption hits a certain level... the production side is going to start hearing a large sucking sound as consumers demand content.

 

[Jacek Zakowicz]

Might this be a situation where the tail ends up wagging the dog? 4K consumer adoption is moving along a typical consumer tech trajectory, and this year we'll see some of the final tech pieces fall into place (HDMI update, mainstream support for 4k from PC's and possibly appliances). By the end of this year (or next year at the outside) we'll likely have large displays entering the pricing sweet spot. Once 4k adoption hits a certain level... the production side is going to start hearing a large sucking sound as consumers demand content.

"Pricing sweet spot" is a moving target with tech moving at break neck speed:
I just bought a 46" 1080p TV for $300 shipped. It's absolutely beautiful with a Bluray. On the other hand I'm yet to see some mind blowing 4K visuals that will impress me as much as HD vs SD did back in the day. The consumer has to see this in order to bite. And I live in LA and stay pretty current.. A Joe Blow from Kansas won't care ...

 

[Bill Anderson]

4K TV's - 2K seems to be doing just fine in cinemas; and it isn't being adopted because it looks better than 4K, but it sure as hell is being adopted, and beautifully so at times.

What do you call a reduser who shoots 2K edit ready? An Arri-user.
Get on it. 2K will be around for some time, future proofing also applies to your user base.