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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

RED FOCUS..

If the needed modules were all done and the correct attachments were all present and RED were to make a simple bundle of all these things into more of a broadcast type package then the price would still be less than an Alexa and it would be able to everything an Alexa can do and more and we could all quit arguing about the same thing. THEY JUST NEED TO FINISH THE MODULES and make a more power savvy v2 of one in particular. If that package were wrapped up in a neat little bow on the website and guaranteed to all go together then people wouldn't feel like it didn't exist. Call it Epic Dragon Studio and Red wouldn't have to do anything new besides finish what they've started. Am I wrong?
 
One thing I think people do not consider when it comes to modules is FCC approvals.

Red can develop all this stuff, but then before being able to sell it, it has to go through a regular product cycle and that means you need to get a sticker on it and a gold seal saying it is safe before you can sell it, then that has to also be worldwide approved.

So timelines take a massive shit and everything has to be quadruple considered before even asking for approval.

Then there is also the patent process, etc. so that some third party doesn't start making and selling it without RED being able to protect itself.

this is might help explain why a plus one is available while a miezler is not. More electronics. Maybe this is why a set of focus motors is easier to get to market than something more complicated that requires a certain amount of power.

This, is also why something like wooden, action or others (which extends the camera functionality (just plugs into it) rather than extend its electronic capabilities can be made and brought to market fast.

So, just before everyone goes module happy, all of these things need to be considered.

Battistella
 
Excellent point David. No doubt RED is doing a phenomenal job considering what they are up against. The thing is that there are so many opinions out there and markets to serve that sometimes these wish list threads remind me of this little gem from The Simpsons:

Focus Group Guy: [after showing the kids some Itchy & Scratchy cartoons] Okay, how many of the kids would like Itchy & Scratchy to deal with real life problems like the ones you face every day?
[the kids cheer]
Focus Group Guy: And who would like to see them do just the opposite, getting into far-out situations involving robots and magic powers.
[the kid kids cheer again]
Focus Group Guy: So you want a realistic down-to-earth show that's completely off the wall and swarming with magic robots?
[the kids all chat at once about it being a great idea]
Milhouse Van Houten: And, also, you should win things by watching.
Focus Group Guy: [sighs]
Roger Myers Jr.: [turns off the mirror disguise in the window] You kids don't know what you want. That's why you're still kids, 'cause you're stupid. Just tell me what's wrong with the freakin' show!
 
One module to rule them all...

One module to rule them all...

I understand the resistance to the "kitchen sink" module/shell idea and all the hurdles involved. That said, in order to simplify things for ACs, Ops, DPs and renters in general I still think an ergonomically designed piece that covers the waterfront is the best choice. From a manufacturing perspective, I would think making just one piece in quantity would reduce costs and focus the engineering vs making a handful of smaller special purpose modules.

The fact that the brain w/side SSD & RedVolt can "go solo" without a tether is fantastic when size and weight are key concerns, vs a camera like the SI-2K or Alexa-M which requires a cable to the recording device/power source. I still maintain that even if a mondo module doubled the size and weight of the Epic, as long as the ergonomics were good it could stay mounted 90% of the time with no significant penalty to operational needs. Just my 2¢.

Cheers - #19
 
Speaking of monitors, I'd love a 7" touch without the hinge mechanism. Just like the 7" for RED One with touch, maybe higher resolution and higher nits.
 
Blair S. Paulsen said:
I understand the resistance to the "kitchen sink" module/shell idea and all the hurdles involved. That said, in order to simplify things for ACs, Ops, DPs and renters in general I still think an ergonomically designed piece that covers the waterfront is the best choice. From a manufacturing perspective, I would think making just one piece in quantity would reduce costs and focus the engineering vs making a handful of smaller special purpose modules.
Click to expand...

Why don't we take a vote and ask the thousands of people waiting for their Dragon upgrades if they think RED should focus on another camera first - or 2 to 3 new modules?

Again, I do think RED should split the product line and make a new camera as some have suggested here - but ... if you consider significant issues that create RESISTANCE to the RED that can be addressed with a couple of well designed modules ASAP - now that RED has acquired ET and has Pizzo & Hector & team in the house. And to be honest ... IMO ... if RED wants to make another camera - it needs to do MORE than just be a Dragon sensor in a shell with the right connectors and design and ProRes recording.
 
I hear you Mark, and assure you that slowing down Dragon upgrades is not my goal.

BTW, I am not advocating for a new camera, just a "host" for the Epic Dragon brain that takes care of most of the things the brain does not. IMO a well balanced ergonomic "back half" would create a very popular and more industry friendly package. Is that the best use of RED's resources? Hard to say without being in Jarred's shoes (which would be very big on me, in more ways than one ;-)

Like you, I have tremendous respect for what Steven and Hector can do. Here's to hoping their skills are being directed in the right places.

Cheers - #19
 
Blair S. Paulsen said:
I hear you Mark, and assure you that slowing down Dragon upgrades is not my goal.

BTW, I am not advocating for a new camera, just a "host" for the Epic Dragon brain that takes care of most of the things the brain does not. IMO a well balanced ergonomic "back half" would create a very popular and more industry friendly package. Is that the best use of RED's resources? Hard to say without being in Jarred's shoes (which would be very big on me, in more ways than one ;-)

Like you, I have tremendous respect for what Steven and Hector can do. Here's to hoping their skills are being directed in the right places.

Cheers - #19
Click to expand...

Okay - you are saying you want ONE BIG module.

I want TWO smaller ones.

I want a PRO IO WIFI module 4 inches long and an Audio IO module that is less than 2 inches long. And I think I have made a good case why separating audio from image/data IO is a forward thinking advantage.

I'm excluding the "4K live module" and "proxy record" functionality. Those are better IMO to roll into a new camera - unless 4K live out can be done efficiently in a reasonable sized module - but I don't know enough about the current DSMC architecture to know if that's possible, almost/kinda-sorta possible or impossible with current brain.
 
Blair S. Paulsen said:
I hear you Mark, and assure you that slowing down Dragon upgrades is not my goal.
Click to expand...

Sorry - I did not express myself correctly. Any new R&D from RED isn't going to slow down Dragon upgrades - those would obviously be different resources. I think the question asked by the thread is - what do we think/want RED to focus the available resources on - the forward moving resources. Dragon upgrades are in process and speeding up -
 
Mark,

this is an accurate assessment of the thread question. Like, do you want more batteries and a matte box and new side SSD module or would you prefer, wireless module, audio, etc.

as in, what's most important to you that could be implemented now or quickly. This is predominately on the camera side of things, but I am interested in workflow ideas as well. (Now that a RCX Cuda version came out today)

battistella


ps, I get that a new body design might be cool ,bu that's looking 3 years out rather than 3-6 months. Also, proxy talk should be limited as red has been pretty clear on what they are doing with the idea of proxy recording.
 
This thread is interesting in a few ways. I think.
1st. I think noone wants RED not to deliver on the orders.

And question is how to expand usage
Dragon will probably do that quite a bit on its own.

As to proxy-recording, I think it is no reason to not mention that, as that is what I see most people do and need on larger productions and that the same people find the external recorder solution (as compared to integrated) cumbersome, and thus that the external "mekano-cam" ideas, excludes the REDs from relevant productions. Proxies have been the biggie. I think it is still a relevant point. White elephants are still white elephants. I know you disagree David, we just see different worlds and productiontypes. It is possible that RED should just let those productions go to Canon and Sony and Arri. Focus is focus. What irritates me a bit, is seeing that the REDS COULD often have been a much better option for these productions without developing "a whole new cam".

Thinking up different bodies, could maybe "just" be modules. Marks extensive list would definitely solve a lot of the issues that frequently pop up.
I would be surprised if not a lot/most/all of what we are discussing here, have been discussed internally at RED.
After all, the rebel-group of madmen, has become a large camera-company, arguably one of the biggies in the cinema/TV industry after just very few years. RED is not just a concept deliverer for the industry.
Somehow I think Jims capacity at looking into crystal balls and hiring talent with vision is part of that... :)

Taking that into account, it could be considered disrespectful, even to think different than the the different thinkers. :)

LOL

And then this thread opens for some of the "early day spirits", that was part of what got me hooked back in 2006 (or was it -05) on DVXuser...

Everything is by now due-fully turned upside down. An immense amount of R&D has gone into a new sensor program. It is being delivered and used. What now?

That is my take on it, at least.

The current body-design has proven itself, and from what I can see, noone is asking for it to be abandoned mid-flight.
It is great for docu, 3D and many owner/operator style usages as it is. Slap on a side-handle and a motionmount and you are good to go and have access to some of the juiciest images out there. Stills or moving.
Again no argument against that.
And no reason to not work further down that line. It sells. And it delivers.

There is again the "how to expand usage" question. :)
RED has been about stubbornness. And that has paid off.
We think 4k is the future.
4k is now.

We think people should be able to own high-end imaging devices
People do.

And a whole new industry has developed from that and the "old" has changed.
It is not "about to change", it is turned upside down.
But RED is no longer "alone" and have not been for a while.
"Everyone" are releasing 4k and 4k RAW cameras. BlackMagic, Sony, Canon, ARRI (SOON), KineRAW, SInaCAM, DigitalBolex, PhantomFlex (Yup, I know they were there earliest), Novo and a number of others work alongside the lines RED successfully brought to market. 4k video will be making its way into mobilephones this year... (actually allready has with a bit of extra software). (Not comparing imagequality here, just stating that the "reality" is different. Significantly so.)


Thus the questions now COULD be a bit different than the ones asked back in 2005.
I think they are.
I never made a billion-dollar anything, so what do I know? :)

Thinking out of the box, to me - means scrapping some old knowledge.
Not because old is bad. But because it inevitably becomes very old. :)

And I really think adapting the developed technology to fit more markets and usages is a good way to profit on the development done.
Thinking up new Franken-cams, is part of that :)
But with existing sensor/signal tech, adapted for additional markets/applications.
One shoe does not fit all.
But different shoe-sizes of the same model, might fit a few more feet without cutting off too many toes.

Also, as they have a bit diferent applications, I think it would be smart if they did not LOOK identical. Just so people do not get confused as to which "RED" they have. (Like the Amira or XT do not look like the Alexa, even though the sensor-block is the same)

Summing up what I see in this thread (and stuff I see "out there" and discussions I have with others), here are some...

• The Doco - cam
If possible, calibrated 4-6 stops "lower" than the film-set calibrated current Dragon
The "shoot in the dark" cam for nature and hardcore lowlight guys. (there seems to be a few of them out there)
Ability to delete shots in cam (this cam is meant for one-man-bands)
Wifi for remote controll
Mini XLRs, knobs for audio and mic/line. Possibly on a separate module, for underwater lightness.
Possibly delivered with MotionMount as default OR built in NDs, but I think the MM is a better option for this config.
Possibly with V-mount/AB-mount integrated.
Maybe some lighter than aluminum material, without going into CF prize.
Shoulder-pad.
This is not "the Amira" equivalent", but a hardcore doco/nature/one-man-band/handheld thingy.
As small as it gets.
Ability to make long (+10 sec/frame) exposures.
Light-weight LCD with a different mounting option and new EVF as part of the package.
Proxy-module on the body (sorry, but it is there for the Broadcast applications I can see this can have)
Firmware that allows easy deleting of bad takes and marking of goodones. (Nope, I do not want this in the full cam-range)
Mini SSD and smarter positioning of the RED LCD/EVF contacts out of the box.
CDL functionality.
Built in Lockit with wireless option.
Different LUTS appliable to different outputs and media.
Price: Lower than Amira/F55 but delivered "ready to go" + media, battery and lenses.
SD slot for blackshades, firmware updates and metadata
Keep as light "as possible"


• The rental-cam
(I do not care if this is done by "modules" or a new design. This is more a functionality description)
Fullsize and separate Standard connectors "Everything"
Physical knobs, dedicated audio-meters
Built in Lockit
Built in WiFi
CDL support
Separate outputs and recording options have access to different LUTs
Possible to overlay frames with JPG/.mov for VFX work
New EVF and mounting solution built into the body/module.
Designs (of modules or body) should be done in cooperation with experienced ACs, and should be super AC-friendly
The ACs have a lot of influence on camera-choice and camera reputation....
Ergonomical design and easy to move from sticks to shoulder without any/much re-rigging.
4:3 sensor
4 channels of audio.
Built in Lockit.
Should probably be delivered with the 3-axis remote.
For this camera, I think built in NDs and color-wheel MIGHT be a better option than the MotionMount
I still think the MotionMount should be a BTO option. (well... for shutter, right?)
Dual LCD/EVF mounts etc.
I don't care whether power distro goes on a closed circuit or through the body. That is an engineering thing, but it should be easy to connect and power "anything standard", without adding second batteries etc.
Well balanced with lenses up to Anamorph and a MB18/FF/3 filters and flags, even for shoulder applications.
Mounting points built into the body (so you do not have to replace the top/whatever) to mount anything into it.
Preferably significantly lighter than Alexa/R1.
Proxy-recording built in. (Up to 4k/300FPS full sensor@16:9) (I know: hahahahahahahahahahaha)
Batterymount built in.
SD slot for blackshades, firmware updates and metadata
Probably a lot I forgot., but the "Pick it up and shoot" cam for rentals and broadcast and features, which would be more or less "the same" wherever you go.


I maybe sum up more "what has been" than what "is the future".
These are thoughts on how RED could adapt (slightly) to accomodate some existing markets, instead of insisting on creating new. :)

For post:
Things are on the right track with OpenCL and Cuda.
It is kinda significant NOT to see one mention of uncompressed... The Compression in Dragon, makes compression a very small point, so it makes sense. :)

.RED will hopefully be available for the desktop...
RED will hopefully partner with one of the major distributors on the .RED tech. (Vimeo constantly comes back to my mind as a good platform to build from)

Just my attempt on thinking "out of the box".
Guess I know by now, why I did not get into camera-design.

(It is very possible that I might update this post) :)
 
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Gunleik,

that was a great post and i do agree that it does feel a bit like the old days when these kinds of threads evolve and there's some good flow going on.

On the proxy thing, it's more like the proxy window (for RED to do it now) is kinda only open a crack. There are so many solutions, I know not as elegant as a module, but cameras on film sets are frankenrigs anyway. Everybody has to adapt to whatever cam they are using. I totally get the arguments and I totally see the uses. It probably would also almost make the REDrocket obsolete in terms of widespread usage and maybe sell a lot less of them into heavy post setups with multiple ones in a real time DI situation.

Would you pay 4500-6300 for a proxy module in place of a RRX? It's a rhetorical question but it's also economics.

I think modular small bodied epic with one even and complete standard might be better than categorizing cameras into types based on the types of films they shoot. Not all doc guys are created equal. Maybe one day it's a doc, maybe the next a short film, maybe a corporate next and then maybe something on a moco rig the day after that.

How much do I love the flexibility of rearranging my cam for everyone of these situations? A lot. I love how flexible the system is.

I do have to shoot in dark places, but I don't want to have to get into a different camera from RED just for the days I have to go into those situations. Everyone wants a "see in the dark camera". What's wrong with lights? (I know nature guys can't worry about that) but everyone is going to want a bit more out of any camera they buy and everyone seems to want a 12000iso epic that somehow won't require lights. Cinematographers light it's a huge part of the craft. People who complain too much about sensitivity should just shoot stuff on their iphone or pic the appropriate tool for the job. I shot a full scene in a darkroom and watched the print develop in the water. How much more lo light can you get when the lighting won't damage film?

i think my epic is, by a hundred miles, the most flexible imaging tool I ever owned. Is it perfect in every respect, no? Is any camera, no. Shot stills, docs, commercials, shorts, bit of drama, interior, studio, mountains, you name it. Used it with redvolts or v-mounts, side handle, no side handle, small tight spaces, jib, dolly slider, handheld, high speed, timelapse and the whole red experience has been 4k and beyond.

For or me, it's the small form factor and the power they put in our hands.

i don't care much about what the big film business or TV production says about or cares about RED. They never liked RED much from the start, they never really bought into it and the moment they had an (in some ways inferior) arri product in their hands many people, productions and market segments turned their backs on RED.

The owner ops are still here, cranking shit out on RED. In Toronto, one rental company went so far as to say that looked forward to the day there would be no owner operators, that they are just a pain in the ass, shouldn't be entering their business territory and should be eliminated. eliminated.

That flies in the face of what RED was about for a lot of people at the start.

Now, they want to turn around and get RED to build them a camera that is "Alexa like"?
That reeks a bit to me.

i love it that Spider-Man was shot on the same camera I own. I love it every time RED captures a big commercial or a tv series, but the whole point of RED seemed to be about giving the tool to a wide number of people. If they wanted to please industry instead of disrupt it they might have called together a focus group of ac's and DPs and had them dictate what kind of camera they wanted RED to build them.

Instead they went a radically different direction and that radical nature produced a hell of a camera, as close to perfect as I have ever owned. Now that's supposed to change because Alexa has penetrated market segments that are "desireable" or "fashionable"?

everything changes is a very true statement and red could very well switch things up to aim in a new direction.

Personally, I'd like RED to be a EVEN more "slim shady", "marshal Mathers" and hold on to the attitude. The sheep who left will eventually return exactly when it suits them. They weren't the ones who jumped in and helped make it all happen, they sat on the sidelines and waited, then used it, then went back to the sidelines.

im nots saying you are any of these things, just the way I see it. that's if REDS business is healthy, they should not pander too much to the critics and listen too much to everyone telling them what the shortcomings are and stay the course and build the shit they want in their own hands.

Battistella
 
David.
As the happy carrier of a minimal Dragon Kit, I have no problem seeing your point :)
And I think a lot of the "lights" stuff is just a lack of skills.
BUT I do also see the nature/doco angle on things. I happen to think that the "Learn to use lights" and "need to shoot at dusk with a 1/400 shutter" needs are not contradicting.
I have no idea if it is at all possible to re-calibrate the sensor or if t is thinkable to carry two calibrations in the same body. :)
Just thinking out loudly. I guess it could be done, though. Basically would be like carrying "two stocks" in one camera.

As to what RED can do to extend usage... These are the things I see.

The reason the Amira will sell busloads and take up a lot of productions that REDs could have filled, is not ImageQuality, Price, "Arri" or "Old thinking", but basically feature-sets tuned at the market I think they try to fill. Generally I would say that the reasons "not" to choose RED these days are little based on the "fanboys and hecklers" situation of 2006 (Just looked through that thread again. It is fun...).

Your argument is similar, and I respect that: Let RED focus at the markets they have created and do them even better.

And as I say, I might very well be wrong.
And then I do want my camera to be more relevant for a broader range of productions than it currently is (without me in the loop) :)
 
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Gunleik - I couldn't agree more sir!

like I said before, the beauty and downfall of RED is its ability to be so modular. You never see the same RED. Period: so many different modules and custom setups. Amazing as an owner/ op but I think can be very frustrating for an AC.

I think having either of the pro proses camera options you mentioned above would be great, but I think the "Rental" one is the try answer for RED to "rebound" and take away the big share that Arri has hooked and to bring in a new crowd. I think it would be smart business but I'm not sure RED is big enough to handle developing another camera along with the modular DSMC line. But it would be at their benefit in my opinion to do this if they want to seriously battle and not simply be just the hip guys, but be THE GUYS.

Red continuing to develop and improve the sensor technology moving forward is key. But like I said before, they could announce a camera sensor upgrade tomorrow that shoots 8k, 21 stops of DR, 1,000 frames a second, etc...but I don't think the dent would be as spectacular as anyone would like to see including RED because the simple truth is people like "easy, reliable, consistent, familiar". To me RED is all of those things but that's because I eagerly seek to shoot RED RAW...even thigh the workflow can be a pain in the ass at times. The other guys have it BOTH ways along with all the other camera body bells and whistles, prores, etc. They are mainly lacking resolution, modularity, and small size. And of course Price is a decent difference. But people will pay for the "easy, reliable, etc. etc." all day long.

The sad truth is the studios, producers, movie investors, etc. don't give a damn about getting the most pristine image ever and making the perfect replacement for fil. I've heard it soooo many damn times before - 1080p, 2k, it's fine the picture is good enough. is it solid and easy in post? Will it make it through an entire production?

Put Dragon into Gunleiks proposed "rental body" with prores/ dnxhd 4k/ HFR with the normal dragon specs & make it the most solid/ stable camera possible. Charge competitively but similar to Arris ball park... It would simply OWN. Period
 
Bigger sensors.

wider DR.

bigger data rates.

Highspeed ram burst.

Higher resolutions.

Real global shutter, motion mount goes.... only half way there.

Downres before compression module ... do not really want proress on camera, I want (if anything) downscaled r3d's recorded in parallel... Do not see proxy module with proress as an option, proress will not be recorded in 300 fps and above.

A module that I can stick a teradek bolt into, Red do not need to reinvent wireless HD.

Red Volt XL with D-tap on them... I do not care if I toast the camera or accessories by phase shifting the connectors. There is to much stuff out there that just does not come with a two pin lemo.

Thunderbolt SSD reader with built in rocketX fairly priced. (some thing that is just works, can be rented out and be used in the field, same aluminium quality build like the current mag readers.
(The M-logic, max digital boxes does not do it for me, to flimsy can not rent them without worries.)

In addition to the above... I realy want an Automatic DIT station. A box with 4 slots for cards and 4 slots for HDD's. Stick in the cards and get duplicated r3d sumchecked copies and chosen proxies on the drives... blinking green light when done. With TB connection to computer to alter settings... etc. running on 12v.

Personally, I have no problem running the camera with a sync jam beginning of day. If it slides a frame during the day it's no biggie, we sort it in the edit but I guess a sync module would be nice preferably built into a +1 2.0 module with 2x XLR aswell.

I had the Pro I/O before it pretty much covers all the sound requests and such but it alls makes the camera quite big and also it eats batteries like mad. So I hardly ever used it. I much rather record sound off camera synced with video feed from the bolt.

Iphone Redmote app with meta data input, Look seting, etc and most important. Iphone EF FF app. preferably with a suction cup focus nob... to stick on the Iphone screen....
 
Great to see some good discussion and ideas here.

Really bloody stupid that's it is now in Off Topic when it's a subject massively important to Red and what this forum/direct communication is for......

When I said Epic Dragon Studio I suppose I was thinking "standard high end config" as opposed to brand new camera.

I echo Gunleik and Mark's comments on the features needed.

David I can see your point that the camera is an owner / operator dream but at the moment those pros are rental cons.

The sale and support of cameras to owners and small one-stop -shop companies is not an issue here. That is clearly not the market that is lacking.

The market that is lacking is the big production rental market.

As someone who has to deal with DOP / Producer / AD angst and frustration on a daily basis (and have done since 2007) I'm just hoping that some of the major issues can be addressed.

I've said a few time in the past to various Red guys that If I could just sit in a room with them for a few hours I could give them a list of all the issues and problems we face from getting cameras out on larger jobs from a rental perspective. I would really like Red to set up an open consultation to all the big rental companies to see if they can target and address these things. I'd volunteer straight away.

Most of the things mentioned in this list would come up in that discussion time and time again.
 
Gunleik Groven said:
The reason the Amira will sell busloads and take up a lot of productions that REDs could have filled, is not ImageQuality, Price, "Arri" or "Old thinking", but basically feature-sets tuned at the market I think they try to fill. Generally I would say that the reasons "not" to choose RED these days are little based on the "fanboys and hecklers" situation of 2006 (Just looked through that thread again. It is fun...).
Click to expand...

100% agree. It is worth noting that if RED built a "pick it up and shoot" camera for the EFP/ENG, higher-end YouTube kids, reality TV shows and docs - that could ONLY record UHD ProRes (3840x2160) - no RAW - Dragon sensor - priced less than the Amira - they would sell a ton IMO. Not suggesting I think they should do that - just saying it would be another way to split a product line and tap into a bigger marketshare without cannibalizing existing product line. Interesting that many folks on this thread (myself included) talk about getting a bigger share of the high-end features & TV world when obviously - sports, ENG/EFP, docs, reality, higher-end YouTube kids, etc. is a much, much, much, much bigger market. "Broadcast" is now "Broadcast+Mobile/Internet". Massive. And it's all going to UHD aka 4K.

RED has the 4K bull by the horns ... and the competition is awake. Dragon slays the other sensors out there and the competition knows that - so they will play to their strengths and RED's perceived weaknesses.
 
Guys,

I totally see the split between owner ops and rental needs in this thread. In many ways that is why the epic is kinda perfect. It's like it's "too much" of a cam for owner ops And "not enough" of a cam to fulfill the needs of rental, production, film, etc.

recapping, a pocket history from the sidelines.

Red burst onto the scene with red one and that cam had most of the things production wanted built in, but there were reliability issues and picture quality was question etc. trust was not built in the rental markets at this stage. Post was a nightmare and cost that people did not want to absorb, the DIT was born.

MX sensor was introduced into the R1 form factor, a bit more reliable but weekly changes, color science changes, reliability, etc, owner ops (I can also call them core users) accept those things, large production does not. Post begins to improve when red takes back redcine x, but now they have ground to make up in that market segment that is leery of red. Producers don't really "get it" or care much for r3d.

alexa introduced, less resolution, etc, Shhot edit concept, capture Prores etc, lowest common denominator, with a very good image and a very stable platform, built for sets and working production, a German tank as it were.

Here comes EPIC, a modular system, hold it in your hand or build it up, redcine x very mature, cameras are more reliable (generally speaking ) but same sensor with a new generation of color science, better, but "real pros" still want to rip the shit out of RED and the trust in rental arenas is fading because the thing that has not arrived is the "modular" part of the system.

Stuff is announced, the pro I/O is problematic (fan noise, lack of power options, etc and does not take off) lack of monitoring is addressed with a module that takes away the hdmi option to add a viewfinder option, the super module is announced, canned, the proxy module is announced, canned. Films shoot RED but tv commercials, series move to Alexa as do many motion pictures.

Now a new sensor, new color science, more DR, but long delays and first images are great but things slowed with need to refine OLPF etc. also, sensor going into epic form factor so all the same reasons for production choosing Alexa remain.

I agree with you guys taking the route you take from your point of view. If red wants their cam to be shooting major productions (which it already is) then, 1. Deliver a set of modules that pro production wants. Failing that 2. Build a new camera body that addresses all the needs of these levels of production.

The key sentence is "if red wants there camera to be shooting major productions" (of course they do, I think)

Then its all about time, focus and resources but much more importantly, building trust they lost over time in these areas while the others were building it in a tangible and solid way.

If we are talking about this then the problem already is widespread and the task of rebuilding that trust is even more difficult because, even with so called inferior technology, the others are perceived as more trustworthy.

Like anything in life, you want someone you trust by your side, you want to buy what makes you feel good and the brands that you trust. These are the qualities people want in their friends and business relationships and it takes a long time to establish.

Now Mark, Gunliek, myself, others in this thread, we have been here a long time, love red, have a passion for it and want it to succeed on all levels, but what's it going to take to get all those rental houses out there to push red over the others?

Tool sets and trust.

And that's gonna take carefully thought out modules, hard work and time to regain that market (which you guys are telling me is lost because I don't play there and see it everyday like you do).

battistella
 
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