RED FOCUS..

[David Battistella]

Ok.

Here's another question.

What at is the one thing RED could make that 90% of Scarlet epic and dragon owners would actually buy?

Think of all owner groups and price range that will add to any existing setup. I think it's an absolute killer EVF that is better than an existing option and priced super comptetitively. Straight focus is on image quality, I think the form factor is there. I think looking through an eye piece is critical to the cinematographer/photographer experience.

Price sub $2000

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

I guess the point I'm trying to make is that it's NOT shoot>edit>post with MOST Alexa TV shows and films.

It is shoot>transcode to proxy>edit>post

Which is the same as shooting RED right now. What comes off the camera - LOG-C most of the time - does NOT go to editorial. A proxy is rendered. Sound familiar?

Yes of course, but you are talking about specific types of productions in high-end segment. I was responding to your question in the context of Red's very wide user base, a part of which is requesting those proxy options, while a large part is probably not in ARRI's targeted market, so it's likely to have some different requirements and not planning on acquiring Clipster any time soon.

In your context I would add that for most it is probably more practical to transcode 1080p Prores to additional proxies than UHD .r3d, and a solution which bypasses .r3d processing requirements where .r3d is not necessary probably would have made the difference with Red's adoption.

I remember a bunch of examples where 12 bit 4:4:4 directly of the camera would have helped us to save time. Not suggesting that this should be Red's priority, just that it is a factor affecting the potential of a multifunctional camera and Red DSMC concept is envisioned as a multifunctional camera. Its modularity is one of its greatest strengths still to be fully harvested.

As in examples:

- Media module - upcoming h.265 from 10 bit 4:2:2 to 16 bit 4:4:4, 4K/QHD/1080p resolution options, encoded in multiple passes, broadcast quality, direct to edit codec, off the shelf media slots (R1's introductory unique competitive advantage was ability to use widely available off the shelf media)

- Camera control + I/O module - weatherproof buttons and OLED menu, controls can be mounted on smart and dumb side, can also process and output Red Paintbox feed as suggested before

- Dedicated high speed module - RAM cache recording, frame rate independent to SSD media write speed, 3:1 in 120p



One more thing related to the topic: I recall a bunch of AC's not being very happy about the location of RED LCD connector.
Some ultra thin L shaped adapter facing up might free a bit the access to changing lens.

 

[William Robinette]

Ok.
What at is the one thing RED could make that 90% of Scarlet epic and dragon owners would actually buy?

I think it's an absolute killer EVF that is better than an existing option and priced super competitively.

This and an audio module with full size XLRs, pots, and LED meters. Make it <$500 and I'll buy one yesterday. Having an A-box hanging off the camera just to get a full size connection is the dumbest thing in the world.

 

[Isaac Marchionna]

One more thing related to the topic: I recall a bunch of AC's not being very happy about the location of RED LCD connector.
Some ultra thin L shaped adapter facing up or going on the dumb side and behind might free a bit the access to changing lens.

Good god yes. It's in the absolute worst place for lens changes.

 

[David Battistella]

Would you rather have 4 mini xlr with 4tracks or 2 full size with only two tracks?

Battistella

 

[Mark L. Pederson]

Good god yes. It's in the absolute worst place for lens changes.

It's part of the SSD Side Module not the brain - with the new Mini Mag SSD Side Module they could have turned the lemo connector 90 degrees - so you connect from above. So ... it's not some adapter - it's just a SSD Side Module.

 

[Mark L. Pederson]

This and an audio module with full size XLRs, pots, and LED meters. Make it <$500 and I'll buy one yesterday. Having an A-box hanging off the camera just to get a full size connection is the dumbest thing in the world.

But ... you need LINE/MIC level switching. It's a major boner for RED having only MIC level. ALEXA has only LINE level. AMIRA has both. Based on taking a poll of guys I know that do different kinds of shooting - they all wanted 4 XLRs - which is why I think the mini-XLR male recepticals that becoming the new standard are the right move.

 

[Isaac Marchionna]

It's part of the SSD Side Module not the brain - with the new Mini Mag SSD Side Module they could have turned the lemo connector 90 degrees - so you connect from above. So ... it's not some adapter - it's just a SSD Side Module.

Mark I'm keenly aware of that. It's one of the dissapointments that the Mini Mag SSD didn't correct that mistake. Honestly the simpler solution would have been to bump the port out and at the bottom of the mag module, similar to the Alexa, and throw the Record button on the side, similar to the Alexa.

 

[William Robinette]

Would you rather have 4 mini xlr with 4tracks or 2 full size with only two tracks?

Battistella

2 full size.

But ... you need LINE/MIC level switching. It's a major boner for RED having only MIC level. ALEXA has only LINE level. AMIRA has both. Based on taking a poll of guys I know that do different kinds of shooting - they all wanted 4 XLRs - which is why I think the mini-XLR male recepticals that becoming the new standard are the right move.

I hear you Mark. Forgot to mention MIC/LINE switches and while I hear you on 4 channels with mini XLRs, of everything I have done in the last two years with my RED 2 full size XLRs would be just fine, Although we are in different markets / productions. If the module you described didn't get stratospherically expensive I'm all over it. My thinking is that it should be something the camera came with already - just give me that functionality. Heck I'd be okay if it was just XLRs and a MIC/LINE switch and controlling audio through the touch as you do now using the front audio ports if it is cheap enough. All this crap dangling around is a PITA

 

[Jeff Brown]

I think the one thing this thread is not addressing is the diversity of the market for Epic. All these contradictory opinions should be categorised:

"I believe x and I'm a Self shooter / Rental house / Doco shooter etc *****delete as appropriate.

I'm a rental house and I can tell you in the UK (or this could be anywhere in Europe) maybe 80% of everything (commercials / TV Drama / Films i.e. higher end productions) shoot Alexa. Red comes in second place along with all the other cameras behind that. In the grand scheme of things I've no doubt Red has outsold Arri in the owner / operator market but in the professional rental business Arri is winning hands down.

There are 2 reasons for this, both of equal importance.

1. Usability.
As in everything mentioned here - ports in the wrong place / fan noise/ ergonomics etc. Arri wait a while and observe then copy the competition with the addition of industry standard connectors. It's paying dividends for them.

2. Codec and workflow.
We all know this is mainly perception but for many jobs Producers will go for a Prores camera because it's cheaper and easier.; They save on DIT kit and use a laptop wrangler and the post house charge them less to finish. I know the " LogC needs a LUT corrected transcode etc" argument but the fact remains that since Resolve Lite and the Retina this is now cheap and easy and the market has made it that way with everyone and their Mum who has a laptop becoming a "DIT" and charging pretty pretty much nothing on Prores jobs. DIT Rocket rental costs however.....


So to echo some of the above in my world I would like to see the Epic Dragon Studio for which I would pay more-

1. Standard power outs
2. Multiple BNCs with programable LUTS in usable places and facing backwards
3. Built in Shoulder mount and rosettes for handheld use straight off the head. No Alan Keys required.
4. Balance - stick all that extra stuff out back for counter weight - get a guy in from Aaton.
5. Use the bigger body to make larger slower spinning fans - kill the fan issue (Yes I have the new kits on all mine and I still get complaints).
6. TC and XLR (Mark covered this very well).

and last but by no means least...

7. Prores. At high speeds with a buffer is necessary. If the Amira does 200fps then make it 300fps. I know this flys in the face of Red's primary belief in RAW (I happen to agree) but when you've got 10 cameras on the shelf after losing jobs over it you think differently. (If needed work behind closed doors with a 3rd party and let them make it. Just like the current external recorders but integrated and part of a standard rental configuration so you can't rent the wrong configuration. No Red logo needed if that helps.)

With the above body and a Dragon sensor this studio Epic would leave the Amira still born - and make no mistake that is the camera that will take most jobs this year and next (in my market at least) across commercials / dramas/ live TV / doco/ etc. Admittedly the Alexa owners will be pissed as they see their high end clients go XT and their low end clients go Amira....

All of this opinion is of course form a rental business perspective and may have little bearing on the majority of people who frequent Reduser. But I think it's fair to say that there is no one camera to rule them all. Epic can not be all things to all people, modular or otherwise. But a split in the product line could really help.

I'd be interested in others thoughts on this.

 

[Mark L. Pederson]

But I think it's fair to say that there is no one camera to rule them all. Epic can not be all things to all people, modular or otherwise. But a split in the product line could really help.

I'd be interested in others thoughts on this.

Jeff - I 100% agree - I just want RED to focus on getting what I believe to be 2 or maybe 3 modules out ASAP that address a huge volume of the complaints and protect the investment of all the thousands that bought into DSMC. And after that - if they can spilt the product line and make a new camera - that would be awesome.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

Jeff - I 100% agree - I just want RED to focus on getting what I believe to be 2 or maybe 3 modules out ASAP that address a huge volume of the complaints and protect the investment of all the thousands that bought into DSMC. And after that - if they can spilt the product line and make a new camera - that would be awesome.

That is kinda my take on this, too...

True that "no single"...

OTOH, there could be a few more obvious appliances for the REDs...

And a s a RED owner... blah bla blah...

 

[David Battistella]

Jeff

i think it's really good that you bring this up. I think many of the things brought up in this discussion are very much needs of larger production and rental houses who have to sort of even out the offering.

Its true that a rental house needs more of what's being talked about here so that they can compete and get a return on their investment.

Ergonomics and ease of use tend to win the day in the rental business. It's maybe also less explaining , etc with other cameras.

Less hand holding. Like, take me through want kinds of questions you are getting. And I am curious if as a rental house you spend more time supporting red (more calls, questions, show and tell,etc) with RED over other stuff you rent.


Battistella

 

[Gunleik Groven]

I think the one thing this thread is not addressing is the diversity of the market for Epic. All these contradictory opinions should be categorised:

"I believe x and I'm a Self shooter / Rental house / Doco shooter etc *****delete as appropriate.

I'm a rental house and I can tell you in the UK (or this could be anywhere in Europe) maybe 80% of everything (commercials / TV Drama / Films i.e. higher end productions) shoot Alexa. Red comes in second place along with all the other cameras behind that. In the grand scheme of things I've no doubt Red has outsold Arri in the owner / operator market but in the professional rental business Arri is winning hands down.

There are 2 reasons for this, both of equal importance.

1. Usability.
As in everything mentioned here - ports in the wrong place / fan noise/ ergonomics etc. Arri wait a while and observe then copy the competition with the addition of industry standard connectors. It's paying dividends for them.

2. Codec and workflow.
We all know this is mainly perception but for many jobs Producers will go for a Prores camera because it's cheaper and easier.; They save on DIT kit and use a laptop wrangler and the post house charge them less to finish. I know the " LogC needs a LUT corrected transcode etc" argument but the fact remains that since Resolve Lite and the Retina this is now cheap and easy and the market has made it that way with everyone and their Mum who has a laptop becoming a "DIT" and charging pretty pretty much nothing on Prores jobs. DIT Rocket rental costs however.....


So to echo some of the above in my world I would like to see the Epic Dragon Studio for which I would pay more-

1. Standard power outs
2. Multiple BNCs with programable LUTS in usable places and facing backwards
3. Built in Shoulder mount and rosettes for handheld use straight off the head. No Alan Keys required.
4. Balance - stick all that extra stuff out back for counter weight - get a guy in from Aaton.
5. Use the bigger body to make larger slower spinning fans - kill the fan issue (Yes I have the new kits on all mine and I still get complaints).
6. TC and XLR (Mark covered this very well).

and last but by no means least...

7. Prores. At high speeds with a buffer is necessary. If the Amira does 200fps then make it 300fps. I know this flys in the face of Red's primary belief in RAW (I happen to agree) but when you've got 10 cameras on the shelf after losing jobs over it you think differently. (If needed work behind closed doors with a 3rd party and let them make it. Just like the current external recorders but integrated and part of a standard rental configuration so you can't rent the wrong configuration. No Red logo needed if that helps.)

With the above body and a Dragon sensor this studio Epic would leave the Amira still born - and make no mistake that is the camera that will take most jobs this year and next (in my market at least) across commercials / dramas/ live TV / doco/ etc. Admittedly the Alexa owners will be pissed as they see their high end clients go XT and their low end clients go Amira....

All of this opinion is of course form a rental business perspective and may have little bearing on the majority of people who frequent Reduser. But I think it's fair to say that there is no one camera to rule them all. Epic can not be all things to all people, modular or otherwise. But a split in the product line could really help.

I'd be interested in others thoughts on this.

And all this applies to major Broadcast as well.

For Docus, smaller drama, and promos.

Could not agree more.

It is very practically about "getting the job done within budget with the money and human resources you have available". Period

THAT actually makes the C300 look good at times...

 

[Scott Brown]

Pro Res - HD to 4K. Raw just isn't always needed and much of the time we just need to shoot HD 1080p. We're using C300's now on many jobs in preference to Epic...time is money and Canon's workflow is just sweet.
New media module to allow use of lower cost non Red media.
Make the Red quieter and cooler.
The black shading is a pain in the ass.
Built in ND's - crazy that this was never included!
Better audio - Red's audio has never been great and there should be NO excuses here!
Better skin tones - Alexa just looks better, much as it pains me to say (

Arri is running fast at the moment and Amira is exactly what we wanted our Red to be. When Arri get's their 4K offering sorted, Red need to be one step ahead.

Scott

 

[Nick Gardner]

I am glad that the Red is as modular as it is precisely because it can't be all things for all people. I personally hate having anything sound related on my camera. Roll sound on a sound devices machine and clap the sticks. Done. But, that's my preference. I would hate see sound stuff lumped into an otherwise useful module. I think small specialized is the way to go, but that's kind of how it works now - need wireless video, put a transmitter on the camera. Remote focus? put it on. Don't need wireless video? take it off.

The thing that helps me is that I have a good bracket system, and a good way to mount and unmount all that stuff efficiently, and quickly. 99% of all of the fuctionality issues with the epic can be solved for a few bucks and the right AKS. I hate the idea of creating some franken module that does 800 different things.

I love Mark's idea of incorporating a redmote on the side of a module. that would be great. But I really think if there were single purpose slim modules, like the plus one size, it would be the best of all worlds. Here's what would exist in my fantasy world -

-Connectivity module - the size of the plus one, with 3 hdsdi outs, 2 more viewfinder/monitor outlets, and timecode and genlock etc. with industry standrd plugs in accesable places.

-I don't want it, but everyone else does ;-) Sound module. knobs, 4x xlrs, led level meters, and as long as you are doing sound a favor have an ambient lock it box built in.

That's really all I would want. The proxy thing isn't getting solved with slo-mo any time soon, so just use a 3rd party prores recorder. I use the kipro and mount it on the dumb side of the camera vertically. The lack of power outs has never been an issue for me since all my aks have the same connector and I have a break out box that lives velcroed to my AB plate. It's incredibly simple and just works. Plus, if you short something out you don't burn anything in the camera. I am all for not pulling power through the inside of the camera if you don't have to. It breaks less that way.

Lots of good thoughts on this thread.

Nick

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

All of this opinion is of course form a rental business perspective and may have little bearing on the majority of people who frequent Reduser. But I think it's fair to say that there is no one camera to rule them all. Epic can not be all things to all people, modular or otherwise. But a split in the product line could really help.

I'd be interested in others thoughts on this.

Your proposal actually echoes many requests so I'd say it would be beneficial for wider use and many camera owners as well.

With unique modularity potential of DSMC concept it seems that split in the product line is not necessary at all, and this part might be covered with a module equipped shell in which brain can slip into.




For cooling route I suggest investigating an option of a dumb side mounted larger fan box with air canals entering Epic's vent ducts.
Another route might be exploring liquid cooling options.




I still don't see the competition for S16 3K 16 bit 3:1 RAW compact camera.

 

[David Battistella]

One thing ink that has not been mentioned is that Prores codec is owned by Apple. R3D is multi platform. So any module would have to also include licensing both Prores and DNXHD. Arri is paying apple to be able to record to that codec and to record DNXHD.

So how is all the feature stuff being shot on arri being edited in avid? The avid codecs are notoriously bad in terms of image quality, I can't see how anyone would want to finish in DNXHD.

when I think about it, r3d is a far smoother workflow.


Battistella

 

[Gunleik Groven]

DNx recording on ALexa for 36 months ca now.

If you can do highspeed with DNx, I am not against that codec.

You can edit from ProRes on PC, no problems...

 

[Russ Campbell]

Prores is important. Even the Alexa XT's in my part of the world are shooting Prores more often than Arri RAW. For better or worse, the Prores workflow is seen as simpler and more cost effective. Even, grading houses advocate Prores over RAW. This is probably the single biggest reason for Alexa's dominance in the TVC industry. Sad that the RED one was a much better investment wrt to rental compared to my Epics. I really hope that the advances in image quality, low noise floor and increased dynamic range of the Dragon sensor will change this trend, but a Prores/IO module would certainly help.