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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

RED FOCUS..

David Battistella said:
But if RED want to regain the rental market, it has to tailor to their needs.
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I have a couple of questions.

-----Is the rental market a large portion of Red sales?

-----Do Red owners believe that because 1 camera is used more in television or feature films it somehow tarnishes their camera to the extend that they need to redesign their camera to compete with that market?

There is always a price for the cutting edge and unfortunately sometimes thats the bleeding edge.

IMHO Red pushes fast and hard and is not interested in looking back to support an inferior 1080 work flow to gain the approval of the rental market.

Some on this board have taken this opportunity to actually question the marketing strategy of Red. What I will say to them is it didn't stop you from buying the best camera in the market did it?

JAFO
 
David Battistella said:
i wonder if we are also overestimating what can be done. I had assumed the architecture was such that you could add an evf module, but then they had to take away hdmi to do that. So I spend 1200$ to buy one kind of functionality and loose another?
Battistella
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+1 module takes the HDMI and ADDS the touchscreen commands to the signal and adds a power connector. That's it. That's why it's small and cheap.

The PRO IO Module - may it rest in peace - CREATED (as-in processed, as in processing boards that could create heat, take up space, etc.) - additional screams of video that do not exist on the brain alone - and it does not take away any video streams from the brain.

With respect to a proxy module - it could be done by taking the SDI from the brain - and then doing a DA - and offering MORE, duplicated HD-SDI streams out. I think the last image I saw of RED's Proxy recorder module had an input and a pass-though output for SDI.
 
So they owned the space for a while. But owning the space and holding the space are different things.
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David, great input and I agree fully with your comments.

A lot of what I feel is frustration. In the early days we all put up with RED One's quirks and necessary work-arounds, there was a feeling of we're in this together exploring new territory and it was exciting. I feel that RED has lost some focus, maybe got distracted with projectors and other non core projects and that we're still dealing with things that are frankly a PITA.

Examples:

Audio - just NEVER been happy with audio recorded internally on Epic, it has got better but it's not great. Being told I must use a sound recordist and capture off camera is just a cop out. I don't do this on any of our other cameras and this just frustrates the hell out of me. Such a simple fix but RED have never listened. One of the first things I learned in this business is that in the world of post, fixing bad pictures is a hell of lot easier than fixing bad audio. Simple solution, develop a custom audio/ProRes module with Sound Devices. This should be simple, they already have the Pix range so they're almost there!

Black shading just gets on my nerves. Sometimes working with Epic feels like dating a hot italian supermodel....exciting at first but then the novelty wears of a little and her constant demands start to niggle. Alexa is maybe a little more of a "girl next door" kind of camera, not quite as exciting, doesn't make your heart skip a beat BUT is altogether easier to live with :smiley:

Lower cost external media module - just removes one more argument that places Alexa ahead of Epic.

Anyway, enough, I've banged my drum a lot today. RED I'm still loyal and love your product BUT please listen and react. Every day I listen to my own clients, take on board their comments, good and bad and strive to make my business better. I complain because I care!

Best wishes

Scott
 
Do people still really believe that ProRes is easier to grade? That isn't so much shocking as it is amazing. I agree though that ProRes's strengths are real, and that is part of what make it a threat to RAW.

Scott Brown said:
Feedback I'm getting when producers have a choice between Epic and Alexa is that Arri's workflow is better and faster, the cameras are more reliable and the footage is easier to grade and just looks great straight out of the camera.

This is not my opinion, however as a company trying to monetize our RED investment, this is what we need to overcome. I'm really hoping some of the upcoming shoot off's between Dragon and Alexa will win back some favour!

Reality TV:

As a company who works extensively in the "ob doc" reality TV realm, I cannot see a place for shooting RAW in this area. With very high shoot ratios and hundreds of hours of material to cut, what we want/need is simple and easy. While RAW should offer better picture quality, the extra time it takes us to process means money lost and with dropping budgets, we have to be mindful of this.

Our post workflow uses ProRes from start to delivery and we have never had a complaint over the quality of our output.

Scott
Click to expand...
 
Some on this board have taken this opportunity to actually question the marketing strategy of Red. What I will say to them is it didn't stop you from buying the best camera in the market did it?
Click to expand...
When RED One was shipped, I bought that camera. Just saying that right now, Epic has BIG competition and I don't think it is the best camera on the market today. My frustration is that with a little work it could be!

I've invested in RED from day one and therefore if I think their marketing strategy is wrong and if it impacts on me financially then I have every right to be critical.

Scott
 
Scott Brown said:
When RED One was shipped, I bought that camera. Just saying that right now, Epic has BIG competition and I don't think it is the best camera on the market today. My frustration is that with a little work it could be!

I've invested in RED from day one and therefore if I think their marketing strategy is wrong and if it impacts on me financially then I have every right to be critical.

Scott
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Are we talking about Big competition in the rental market?
 
Mark L. Pederson said:
So ... why not let ATMOS, CONVERGENT DESIGN, AJA, BLACK MAGIC (barf), etc - come to the table and compete for making the Proxy Recorder Module on a royalty per unit deal. 3rd Parties cover all the development, costs, etc. - if the module sells - RED still gets revenues from every module - and they can focus on sensors and cameras (and CDL and 3D LUT implementation :)
Click to expand...


The he big assumption here is that they want to build a purpose built thing for Red when people are already buying their products and can use it on three different cameras. I think if RED were partnering there would have to be a pretty solid guarantee on back ends sales for the R&D design investment.

The he real point here is, WHAT DOES RED DO BEST. I don't think it's lenses and matte boxes and lens motor systems. But sensor technology and anything that adds to making the camera experience better for the operator, ie side handle and viewfinder.

So the mentality has to be, what are people asking for in terms of modules and how to we build them to exceed expectations.

That's it on the camera end.

Next question. WHAT DO WE DO TO FULLY SUPPORT THE WHOLE ECOSYSTEM FROM CAMERA TO POST?

maybe that includes RCX, a Prores module, a killer backup solution

to me those two questions solved, solves many problems.

Battistella
 
That hat is why I emphasizes if that is what they want, whether it's for perception or business reasons.

Me, me, I love how they have done it and have no issues at all with what is think is the very best imaging device available.

Battistella

Corey_O said:
I have a couple of questions.

-----Is the rental market a large portion of Red sales?

-----Do Red owners believe that because 1 camera is used more in television or feature films it somehow tarnishes their camera to the extend that they need to redesign their camera to compete with that market?

There is always a price for the cutting edge and unfortunately sometimes thats the bleeding edge.

IMHO Red pushes fast and hard and is not interested in looking back to support an inferior 1080 work flow to gain the approval of the rental market.

Some on this board have taken this opportunity to actually question the marketing strategy of Red. What I will say to them is it didn't stop you from buying the best camera in the market did it?

JAFO
Click to expand...
 
Scott Crawley said:
Do people still really believe that ProRes is easier to grade? That isn't so much shocking as it is amazing. I agree though that ProRes's strengths are real, and that is part of what make it a threat to RAW.
Click to expand...

This is a trick question... :)

I get my fair share of "what happened here"? questions, when people do not get the results they expected from "raw".
And 95% of the time "what happened" were either underexposure or fucked up metadata before (or in) the grade. (If it is underexposure, the "how this happened" is often due to messed up in-camera metadata)

I would say that starting off at 640 ISO/5600K RedLogFilm is a pretty foolproof startingpoint for post for close to 90% of shots, even for prores 4444.
No channels gets clamped or messed up "out the door".
Debayer is good.
Prores does not hold as well or is as clean as 16bit DPX, but it is pretty darned good.

If you could lock down a "dumb" mode to record redlogfilm with these setting, possibly with some not too wild whitebalance that affects lightingchoices in a bad way...

For many productions I have seen, that would be a much better start for post, than any pre-graded and tweaked metagrades I have seen as "Startingpoints for a grade".

Can it be optimized for grading better than that?
Sure. Mostly through use of lights, but yes.
Is it "raw"?

Nope. But then again, we never really grade "raw".

A clean and well encoded RedLogFilm prores signal can be a lot easier to grade and contain a much better "grading signal", than a messed up "raw".

If RED had a foolproof mode, we would see less bad results...

OK.
This is just me thinking out loud.
I like the choices! :)

But "raw" is not "magic", it is just a way to record a signal, and then feed it down the line.
We NEVER see raw.
 
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I will jump off now. really... :)

But I think Mark and David and the Scots and all make good points.

I think, from what I see, ACs and DoPs and producers are not "haters", but usually practical guys who choose the road of least opposition to get the result they want.

So I actually agree with Mark, that to address some of the issues David and others have addressed here about "perception", you have to fill the gaps, given that the perception is real IF RED does not want to become more of a specialist brand for specialized applications.

With the Dragon, I think it would be fun to see RED go for more than niche....

They really deserve that.
 
Really nice response Scott.

I get that sense that you, like many others, feel they are kind of the front line workers for red all over the world and then the input you give can kinda be ignored. You see it and hear it everyday. That is valuable input that not everyone has had the guts to share, while trying to be helpful, but felling like they might get their legs cut off by red (which they have done very publicly with some people).

FYI my ex Italian supermodel isn't as temperamental as she might seem, really very soft underneath.

living in Italy I am used to the hot blooded passion that is red, it's my everyday life, but some will always want a reliable German wife by their side. :)

battistella


Scott Brown said:
David, great input and I agree fully with your comments.

A lot of what I feel is frustration. In the early days we all put up with RED One's quirks and necessary work-arounds, there was a feeling of we're in this together exploring new territory and it was exciting. I feel that RED has lost some focus, maybe got distracted with projectors and other non core projects and that we're still dealing with things that are frankly a PITA.

Examples:

Audio - just NEVER been happy with audio recorded internally on Epic, it has got better but it's not great. Being told I must use a sound recordist and capture off camera is just a cop out. I don't do this on any of our other cameras and this just frustrates the hell out of me. Such a simple fix but RED have never listened. One of the first things I learned in this business is that in the world of post, fixing bad pictures is a hell of lot easier than fixing bad audio. Simple solution, develop a custom audio/ProRes module with Sound Devices. This should be simple, they already have the Pix range so they're almost there!

Black shading just gets on my nerves. Sometimes working with Epic feels like dating a hot italian supermodel....exciting at first but then the novelty wears of a little and her constant demands start to niggle. Alexa is maybe a little more of a "girl next door" kind of camera, not quite as exciting, doesn't make your heart skip a beat BUT is altogether easier to live with :smiley:

Lower cost external media module - just removes one more argument that places Alexa ahead of Epic.

Anyway, enough, I've banged my drum a lot today. RED I'm still loyal and love your product BUT please listen and react. Every day I listen to my own clients, take on board their comments, good and bad and strive to make my business better. I complain because I care!

Best wishes

Scott
Click to expand...
 
Gunleik Groven said:
I will jump off now. really... :)

But I think Mark and David and the Scots and all make good points.

I think, from what I see, ACs and DoPs and producers are not "haters", but usually practical guys who choose the road of least opposition to get the result they want.

So I actually agree with Mark, that to address some of the issues David and others have addressed here about "perception", you have to fill the gaps, given that the perception is real IF RED does not want to become more of a specialist brand for specialized applications.

With the Dragin, I think it would be fun to see RED go for more than Niche....

They really deserve that.
Click to expand...

Amen. And I'm off now too. really :)
 
Mark L. Pederson said:
i don't think you know the Element Technica team very well then - as they are now owned by RED. RED can now make a better matte box and a better lens motor system than anyone I know.
Click to expand...

Great, maybe I was talking about, up to the time they acquired ET and that is a different team doing that stuff. But please don't make it seem like I am insulting them. I'm not, I'm talking about core stuff here.

Battistella
 
living in Italy I am used to the hot blooded passion that is red, it's my everyday life, but some will always want a reliable German wife by their side. :)
Click to expand...

Thanks David, you know come to think of it, I'd get bored with that reliable German wife by my side. Maybe we just need to mix of the two, I'd have the German for work and the Italian for fun :thumbsup:

On the subject of fun, it's Friday night and here in the UK work's now over!!!

Have a great weekend everyone.

Best wishes

Scott
 
Its noon in la and I am thinking of heading to red studios or irvine for the first time, but I can get in touch with anyone from Red!

battistella

Scott Brown said:
Thanks David, you know come to think of it, I'd get bored with that reliable German wife by my side. Maybe we just need to mix of the two, I'd have the German for work and the Italian for fun :thumbsup:

On the subject of fun, it's Friday night and here in the UK work's now over!!!

Have a great weekend everyone.

Best wishes

Scott
Click to expand...
 
Whoa. This surprises me. The fact that you attribute 95% of grade WTF's to operator error isn't the shocker, rather it is the part about a pre-baked RLF source might be as useful +/or as flexible as a RAW one. This is going to be cause for much consternation. Frankly it may shake my sense of understanding to the core. I guess I'll just have to run home to a basic principle. I want to create all of my work from the most data possible. If RAW is THE most complete reckoning of the captured signal and all other transcodes are -data by definition, then I choose to stay RAW as long as it it feasible to do so. New computing hardware is making it completely feasible to do just that.

I used to feel enormous pressure to be able to offer ProRes because of the computing and storage overhead. I feel that pressure less and less. I see r3d gaining acceptance. Maybe I'm wrong but it feels like we are turning a corner. It feels good. I like ProRes but I won't be looking back.

Gunleik Groven said:
This is a trick question... :)

I get my fair share of "what happened here"? questions, when people do not get the results they expected from "raw".
And 95% of the time "what happened" were either underexposure or fucked up metadata before (or in) the grade. (If it is underexposure, the "how this happened" is often due to messed up in-camera metadata)

I would say that starting off at 640 ISO/5600K RedLogFilm is a pretty foolproof startingpoint for post for close to 90% of shots, even for prores 4444.
No channels gets clamped or messed up "out the door".
Debayer is good.
Prores does not hold as well or is as clean as 16bit DPX, but it is pretty darned good.

If you could lock down a "dumb" mode to record redlogfilm with these setting, possibly with some not too wild whitebalance that affects lightingchoices in a bad way...

For many productions I have seen, that would be a much better start for post, than any pre-graded and tweaked metagrades I have seen as "Startingpoints for a grade".

Can it be optimized for grading better than that?
Sure. Mostly through use of lights, but yes.
Is it "raw"?

Nope. But then again, we never really grade "raw".

A clean and well encoded RedLogFilm prores signal can be a lot easier to grade and contain a much better "grading signal", than a messed up "raw".

If RED had a foolproof mode, we would see less bad results...

OK.
This is just me thinking out loud.
I like the choices! :)

But "raw" is not "magic", it is just a way to record a signal, and then feed it down the line.
We NEVER see raw.
Click to expand...
 
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David Battistella said:
Amen to both of you.

I'm outta here too. Now people can go back to arguing about 4k tv's. :)

battistella
Click to expand...
Yes David and you can go to Irvine and talk to Red about the important stuff. You know- how to conduct their business ;)
 
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