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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

RED FOCUS..

Unless I am missing something, as screens move to 4k the pressure to remain in RAW is likely to increase rather than decrease. I think this is particularly true in broadcast TV FWIW.

I have continually read that Alexa trumps in TV because it is easy and 1080 is enough. When home screens are 4k, "easy" will be the battlefield. I suggest that Red can win there, not for ease in operation so much as ease in post. Reality and other kinds of programming are not being shot by the most skilled operators, and those kinds of productions seem to dominate programming hours. For those kinds of operations RAW means ease in fixing the shit.
 
When and if 4k wins the living room, do you think cinema can survive and thrive if they continue to distribute 2k?

The mere perception that TV is leading in quality could damage cinema.

Bill Anderson said:
4K TV's - 2K seems to be doing just fine in cinemas; and it isn't being adopted because it looks better than 4K, but it sure as hell is being adopted, and beautifully so at times.

What do you call a reduser who shoots 2K edit ready? An Arri-user.
Get on it. 2K will be around for some time, future proofing also applies to your user base.
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Jacek Zakowicz said:
"Pricing sweet spot" is a moving target with tech moving at break neck speed:
I just bought a 46" 1080p TV for $300 shipped. It's absolutely beautiful with a Bluray. On the other hand I'm yet to see some mind blowing 4K visuals that will impress me as much as HD vs SD did back in the day. The consumer has to see this in order to bite. And I live in LA and stay pretty current.. A Joe Blow from Kansas won't care ...
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Not as moving as you'd think... early adopters will pay a substantial premium over commodity pricing for the latest and greatest... for TV's those numbers are in the 'couple thousand dollars' range historically. 4K isn't there yet but it won't be long. I think the difference in quality between HD and 4k is as great as that between DVD and HD... I distinctly recall hearing people tell me when 1080p was early in it's deployment cycle that they didn't think it would catch because "the DVD to 1080p jump isn't as significant as the SD to DVD jump was"... but of course the tech drove forward in that case... and it will in this one.
 
Gunleik Groven said:
This has little relevance vs Amira/Alexa-prores, F55 non-raw, C500 non-raw and C300
Where a lot of RED-likely work has disappeared and probably can continue to disappear, and is an expanding S35mm market that RED pretty much created by giving many "what they did not know they wanted", but others have seen and come up with simpler ways for an ever exapanding userbase to deliver into... :)
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Right. And the more I think about it - as much as I'm a RAW junkie - and I don't find RAW "hard" - and certainly there are no still photographers out there today that think RAW is "hard" - I have to say that the Dragon sensor is so damn good IMO - that it's kinda silly not to stick it into a camera that shoots 1080 ProRes for those markets - or make a module that records ProRes 1080 and make your user base rejoice.

I suspect that those markets will move to 4K RAW as fast or faster than 4K ProRes as 4K/UHD slowly but surely takes off - so ... maybe 4K ProRes is a lame idea.

If you can record both at the same time on camera - you can deliver to 1080 clients and jobs and still LTO the 5K/6K RAW files for later.
 
Mark L. Pederson said:
Right. And the more I think about it - as much as I'm a RAW junkie - and I don't find RAW "hard" - and certainly there are no still photographers out there today that think RAW is "hard" - I have to say that the Dragon sensor is so damn good IMO - that it's kinda silly not to stick it into a camera that shoots 1080 ProRes for those markets - or make a module that records ProRes 1080 and make your user base rejoice.

I suspect that those markets will move to 4K RAW as fast or faster than 4K ProRes as 4K/UHD slowly but surely takes off - so ... maybe 4K ProRes is a lame idea.

If you can record both at the same time on camera - you can deliver to 1080 clients and jobs and still LTO the 5K/6K RAW files for later.
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Agreed 1000% I made a make shift ProRes module with a Hyperdeck Shuttle 2 and it's been very successful. I've been able to persuade a couple of productions away from the Alexa with this "module".
 
Again I don't deny the usefulness of ProRes now but it's days are numbered. Unless Red has a module ready to go, given the time it takes them to get modules to market I think it very well could be DOA.
 
Mark L. Pederson said:
Right. And the more I think about it - as much as I'm a RAW junkie - and I don't find RAW "hard" - and certainly there are no still photographers out there today that think RAW is "hard" - I have to say that the Dragon sensor is so damn good IMO - that it's kinda silly not to stick it into a camera that shoots 1080 ProRes for those markets - or make a module that records ProRes 1080 and make your user base rejoice.

I suspect that those markets will move to 4K RAW as fast or faster than 4K ProRes as 4K/UHD slowly but surely takes off - so ... maybe 4K ProRes is a lame idea.

If you can record both at the same time on camera - you can deliver to 1080 clients and jobs and still LTO the 5K/6K RAW files for later.
Click to expand...

This is getting kinda boring, but 110% agree...
 
David Kuhn said:
Not as moving as you'd think... early adopters will pay a substantial premium over commodity pricing for the latest and greatest... for TV's those numbers are in the 'couple thousand dollars' range historically. 4K isn't there yet but it won't be long. I think the difference in quality between HD and 4k is as great as that between DVD and HD... I distinctly recall hearing people tell me when 1080p was early in it's deployment cycle that they didn't think it would catch because "the DVD to 1080p jump isn't as significant as the SD to DVD jump was"... but of course the tech drove forward in that case... and it will in this one.
Click to expand...
Have you seen 4K? I have been to Red screenings, trade show screenings, DSC/ASC screenings, etc. I even "reloaded" watching SD VS HD footage so I'm current.
"4K" tech is still not mature delivery and suffers from that. I'm sure it will be some day but for now...
Lets put it this way: if I were to buy a TV and had a choice of paying $300 for 1080p or $1000 for 4K I NEED to see the value- quite a bit of it actually with 3x the price-wouldn't you?
And than there is the content issue, the distribution issue, etc. We are only talking here about the acquisition and post. C-mon RED - make that prorez already!!!
 
Daniel Stilling said:
Agreed 1000% I made a make shift ProRes module with a Hyperdeck Shuttle 2 and it's been very successful. I've been able to persuade a couple of productions away from the Alexa with this "module".
Click to expand...

And I use ATMOS Blade with Dragon and it's great. But seems like the "part of the camera / module" is really, really important to folks.

So ... two options:

#1: RED reboots and makes a ProRes module. It WILL cost more than these third party recorders because it has to fit the mechanics of the DSMC module system. I think weather they should do this or not really depends on how much resources they spent on it already - how close did they come to finishing it off.

#2: Open up 3rd Party Module Program - which to me - is a no brainer as there are specialized companies like Zaxcom, etc. - that have cool tech and would love to make their own - purpose built Modules for DSMC. Unless you have your head in the sand - Ambient's Clockit Network (ACN - http://www.ambient.de/en/products/ambient-recording/clockit-timecode/clockit-network.html) is going to become an industry standard on sets - as their roadmap is very intense and they have all the right 3rd parties signed up - way, way past what Time Code Buddy has. So ... why not let AMBIENT worry about making the ACN Module?

So ... why not let ATMOS, CONVERGENT DESIGN, AJA, BLACK MAGIC (barf), etc - come to the table and compete for making the Proxy Recorder Module on a royalty per unit deal. 3rd Parties cover all the development, costs, etc. - if the module sells - RED still gets revenues from every module - and they can focus on sensors and cameras (and CDL and 3D LUT implementation :)
 
I have continually read that Alexa trumps in TV because it is easy and 1080 is enough
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Feedback I'm getting when producers have a choice between Epic and Alexa is that Arri's workflow is better and faster, the cameras are more reliable and the footage is easier to grade and just looks great straight out of the camera.

This is not my opinion, however as a company trying to monetize our RED investment, this is what we need to overcome. I'm really hoping some of the upcoming shoot off's between Dragon and Alexa will win back some favour!

Reality TV:
For those kinds of operations RAW means ease in fixing the shit.
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As a company who works extensively in the "ob doc" reality TV realm, I cannot see a place for shooting RAW in this area. With very high shoot ratios and hundreds of hours of material to cut, what we want/need is simple and easy. While RAW should offer better picture quality, the extra time it takes us to process means money lost and with dropping budgets, we have to be mindful of this.

Our post workflow uses ProRes from start to delivery and we have never had a complaint over the quality of our output.

Scott
 
For sure the days of a 1080 ProRes module are numbered, no doubt as 4K will come faster than a lot of people think, specially over the Internet, but it still have some useful time ahead, otherwise Arri wouldn't be releasing a new HD camera. If RED can release the module for a couple of grand, it will pay itself before you can say 4K is here!
 
Mark L. Pederson said:
Yeah ... 111% agree it's getting boring.

I think our work here is done here.

Guess it's time to drop this thread and get back to posting cool shit with Dragon :)
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I guess this whole thing is a symptom of abstinence...
I and Dragon will be rejoined on the coming Thursday...

And I have some plans for what to shoot.

But I guess we are done right here.
 
Gunleik Groven said:
I guess this whole thing is a symptom of abstinence...
I and Dragon will be rejoined on the coming Thursday...

And I have some plans for what to shoot.

But I guess we are done right here.
Click to expand...

Well ... I think it has been a constructive thread. And it's all VERY important stuff. Regardless of how it all plays out. I think it's always good to try to contribute - even if you don't always have the best ideas. Maybe someone gets inspired.
 
I think this thread is great!

So much constructive dialog here.

One thing I wanted to say is this. It's about the maturation process.

RED entered the scene as brash, bold, wanting to kick ass and take names later. The Red One came to market had zero competition and everybody wanted to use it because it fit perfectly into a missing slot. It was not film, which was getting costly and it was not a 5D, which was not up to standard for production.

So they owned the space for a while. But owning the space and holding the space are different things.

Not it everyone understood the whole, "we have the right to refuse service to anyone with a bad attitude" mantra. While "owning the space", there were several big films, etc, but there were issues with workflow, issues with reliability, etc.

By the the time the Alexa came out and started selling, etc red had started to do a bit more in terms of outreach, Reducation, updated support website, service oriented stuff, better webstore, more outreach.

But they were also suing ARRI and SONY (pending) and rightly defending their patents. So I'm talking more perception here and the subtle things that are hard to pinpoint.

So the marketplace now has some choices, they have a chance to lean back toward a company that has served them in the most amazing way for many years and the Alexa provided a plugin play workflow and a maybe a more stable platform.

This is is where brand loyalty comes in. Once people (and I'm talking, film tvc's, commercials) were able to get back to something familiar, something they trusted, that worked they way they were used to, then it was easy. They did not want to hear about more DR, resolution, etc, because they may have felt a bit burned and maybe even a bit, "not listened too".

So maybe a bit of what is going on in the marketplace is the market is sorta saying back, "we refuse to rent the gear from any company with a bad attitude". Now, to be absolutely clear, I'm not saying that RED has a bad attitude, I think you have to carry that attitude to do what they did. But as the company matures, and it has greatly in all of its aspects of interaction with customers, then that can shift and change as well.

The other important point here is the word "rent". The people in tvc's, feature, commercial, tv series, none of these people bring the camera they purchased to set. They don't own it, they rent it, so they don't give a shit about the gear the way an owner op does. They don't defend it the same way. It's a tool, they want it to work, they want pretty pictures, limited hassle and they don't want anyone pointing a finger at their department if shit doesn't work. It's stressful and there is limited or zero patience or tolerance for fuckups.

so this is where, I think, if RED wanted to gain back loyalty in these markets (which is obviously and clearly where ground has been lost), they would have to do the most community outreach. That takes time, patience, humility and a rebuilding of trust.

It ain't going to be done with a module.

Battistella

Guys here on reduser, we get it, many of us have done hours and hours of outreach on REDs behalf to explain all the plusses and benefits. But if RED want to regain the rental market, it has to tailor to their needs.
 
Mark L. Pederson said:
But 2 or 3 modules done right - will go a long, long way :)
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I agree, don't show anyone the first design, start showing after the fifth design and some selected beta testing, don even talk about it until ever possible flaw or question has been answered.

i wonder if we are also overestimating what can be done. I had assumed the architecture was such that you could add an evf module, but then they had to take away hdmi to do that. So I spend 1200$ to buy one kind of functionality and loose another? Why not somehow just develop a splitter cable that perfectly duplicates the evf port signal?

Then you mentioned that the proxy module would have to use the hdsdi port? Then to have proxy you loose monitoring? I can't believe that there wasn't more possibility in the multi pin connector to do these things seamlessly. If that is the case then there are already better solutions.

Personally, i think pix should be developed into a proxy module because of how amazingly that company deals with audio signal path as well.

Battistella
 
The proxy module isn't doing the devil's work, nor will it render your raw workflow obsolete or less desirable, neither will it slow the development and ultimate universal adoption of 6K raw and all that is required to make that as easily managed as 1080. It's really just about options today. A few years from now we'll all be dancing on 2K's grave - even the Arri lads.
 
Jacek Zakowicz said:
Have you seen 4K? I have been to Red screenings, trade show screenings, DSC/ASC screenings, etc. I even "reloaded" watching SD VS HD footage so I'm current.
"4K" tech is still not mature delivery and suffers from that. I'm sure it will be some day but for now...
Lets put it this way: if I were to buy a TV and had a choice of paying $300 for 1080p or $1000 for 4K I NEED to see the value- quite a bit of it actually with 3x the price-wouldn't you?
And than there is the content issue, the distribution issue, etc. We are only talking here about the acquisition and post. C-mon RED - make that prorez already!!!
Click to expand...
I've got access to a handful of 4k displays from multiple vendors, and playback devices that allow me to watch Red content and others (though I'm still waiting for my Redray)... though most of the footage I've watched is footage I've taken myself or downloaded from the net. I'm certainly not arguing that all the pieces are in place... but I am saying that what's happening today in 4k is not much different than what happened in the early days of 1080p. I see the image quality difference between quality 4k media and 1080p and to me it looks substantial (on par with DVD-1080p, not as great as SD-DVD). Back when 720 and 1080 came out, what content was available was little better than upscaled DVD quality, and people were complaining that the formats had nothing to offer relative to DVD (or at the least... not enough to justify the huge cost differential). This is the normal chicken and egg issue that happens every time a new format is released... all the supporting pieces need to be in place to drive demand, but demand is needed to get players to invest in all the supporting pieces. So it takes a while... but eventually the tipping point is reached where demand starts pulling everything into order. I think that'll likely happen some time next year given historical norms (maybe late next year)... with adoption gaining momentum after that. The one interesting difference this time is that 4k is pushing both the consumer/'TV' industry as well as the movie business... bit of a wildcard how that will impact adoption - but as with tech progress in general; it'll be interesting to see how it plays out.
 
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