RED FOCUS..

[Phil Holland]

By all means don't fuck with the tiny brain. If wanted, a module that combined xlr inputs, a +1 module, and a decent shoulder pad would be welcomed, but don't turn it into an alexa. The Mietzler (or whatever the hell it's called), is too much and +1 is too little. Smart, small modules are where it's at. Honestly, I am fine with the epic and +1 module. That does everything I need done in a small package. The camera is really close to perfect. it wouldn't take much to get it all the way there, and it can fit in with how it's already designed.

Big agree.

- New Alexa/ENG style body with XLR's and knobs.
- Or even better, a body, which you can "click" your brain into.
- Remote Focus on EF lenses
- Better EVF
- Faster repair/shipping times on damaged items. (For us outside the US).
- Loctite'd nuts on Lemo cables!

Personally I would like a module, which replaces the sidehandle, but with a thinner profile, which adds buttons an dials along the side of the brain. But I would probably be the only one wanting this module

I'm not sold on the new body concept. I think for the most part a module or modules with a more ENG style AKS is what people would want. I think from a cost analysis perspective it makes little sense to make a big body. Also, the small DSMC Brain form factor is likely a larger positive than it is a negative.

Not saying that this is the right solution for you, but one of the cooler things I've seen Fincher and Cronenweth run while shooting Gone Girl is a dual LCD Touch 9.0" setup, with one mounted on the dumb side so the A/C or whoever has access to the controls. Actually pretty handy.

I'd say more F5/55 style. Alexa is large and bulky.

If that's the form factor that some people desire I strongly think that via a new module(s).

More and more I think we are looking at a Pro I/O v2.0 situation with some of the features of the Meizler Module incorporated and a few other things that haven't been mentioned yet.

Modules:
Proxy - up to 4k/highspeed
Lockit with genlock working at all base framerates.
Audio with XLR's and physical knobs

Yep. A few other things in there too I'm thinking.

Actually I am curious about people's opinions about what Red should be putting in the pipeline..... I would like to hear also from AC's about what they would like.... Dps, operators and AC's that is all. No post people, no producers.....

I do think that one thing that will be/should be in the works is a wireless 4K/1080p monitoring option. Red has demonstrated in the past how Meizler could incorporate wireless audio via REDSync and I think believe wireless video and audio in a compact all in one solution with the ability for wired use as well is likely what people are looking for. WiFi camera control has also been shown and is desired. That might also produce the wireless follow focus solution that EF lens users are after.

The trick will be how to do this and at what price point is it possible to release it.

I think we'll see some other image based enhancements perhaps down the line. Something we might not be expecting.

 

[David Battistella]

Reading through this thread, seems there's some cool ideas so far.
this click in camera body thing is a cool concept, but not sure if it's about economics or adding performance.

I mean, it's like people are kinda asking for the Epic version of the r1. Like all the I/O of the redone, in a boxier body, and much lighter than the r1. Maybe that gives a better form factor? Easier to shoulder?

id love to see a redone with epic "styling" and performance, but strip down the body to the weight of a race car.

As if niki lauda in the film rush walked in a said, "that's great now shave off 10 more ounces" of course a lot of the weight is heat sink, so it's a design challenge for sure.

in terms of functionality, we should really consider what Peter was asking for from a camera and AC perspective.

Battistella

 

[Wayne Morellini]

You don't want to know. If redray, odemax, , fixed 4k camera, picket camera, crimson projector were going it would be rosie to give them a basis group going on and not be stuck in one pool. 8k camera and projector should have been out by now to stay ahead, on the competition.

 

[Max M.]

I think a new more complete body design should be the main focus. Imagewise with the dragon they are doing well. For me a new body design should have:

- 2 or 3 x hd sdi output, each assignable with different LUTS if wanted and possibilty to send out 4K signal
- 2x full size xlr with aes facing backwards, so cables don't stick out the the right
- make the body a little longer, and move all the connectors from the bottom to the right side (like the F55/alexa)
- would be nice if 15mm lws rods would fit underneath the camera, but not essential
- make it lighter. Modules add alot of weight and the body self is quite heavy (relative) for the miniature package it's in
- move the lcd/evf connector. The placement is terrible, because it's too close to the lens mount. On the redone it had a better place
- make a great evf that is even better than the alexa one and make an integrated evf mount like the alexa and F55. This can be removed if wanted of course
- built in ND'S. And not 2 but 3. What would be reaaaally badass would be the motion mount built in that it can be moved in, or not. So you only need a 2 position switch. Clear with full iso sensitivity or with the tessive filter in front and then all the ND options you could want. That would be a killer combination
- integrated shoulder pad
- lower power consumption
- power outs on the body in different voltages

i think red shouldn't focus on matteboxes, remote focus units, r90 kind of stuff, focus on the best possible camera

 

[Sebastian Winkels]

I'm still mourning the proxy module.

I'd love to see a +1 Module v2.0 and it should incorporate

- TC IN and OUT (internal Lockit)
- 2nd RED Monitor path
- 2 Mini XLR's (Audio IN)

For he big guys a Pro I/O v2.0 is also a great idea (HD wifi, etc.)

 

[luigivaltulini]

A module as big as little more than +1, with these specifications:

-proxy module proress or DNxHD 4k up to 120 fps
-integration of LUT-in camera (would be great)
-XLR audio-integrated
-wifi 1080p

 

[Gunleik Groven]

I'm still mourning the proxy module.

I'd love to see a +1 Module v2.0 and it should incorporate

- TC IN and OUT (internal Lockit)
- 2nd RED Monitor path
- 2 Mini XLR's (Audio IN)

For he big guys a Pro I/O v2.0 is also a great idea (HD wifi, etc.)

Add proxy-recording, dual SDI, wifi and gain knobs for audio and thisone starts getting very interesting.

 

[Daniel Stilling]

Please, for all you hold sacred, don't Alexasize the Epic body! The Alexa is a big brick and a pain in the but to work with in my perspective, and all that for a few bnc's and xlr's?
I think the modularity concept is great. Might not have been well implemented, but what do I know, I'm not an engineer.
I understand that you need extra processing power to create more video outs. That should probably have been put inside the body to begin with, so we could just tack on different modules. It would be great (but probably not feasible with the processing power present on the camera today) to have +1 size modules that attach on each other with different applications, like one for XLR inputs, one for additional bnc outputs, one for 4K monitoring output, one for timecode, and so on...

 

[Martijn de Vre]

As a shooter, a 4K "proxy" module would make selling the camera to productions much easier. The reason most of my jobs go with other cameras is because they have the ability to record direct to an efficient codec and that leaves less possibility for error on the post end of things (what most producers like). I believe a 4K (with options of 1080p, 2k, 4k) proxy module is really necessary to overtake a larger segment from Arri. Like I said in the other threads, this module needs to record slow mo real time. As a shooter the camera has everything I need, but that doesn't speak for the rest of the production. Proxies, Proxies, Proxies.... We can always go back to the R3D's for color, etc...

+1!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Gunleik Groven]

Daniel...

I think there is no danger of the current Epic shape and idea disappearing.
I like and use it "as is" a lot.

ALso I think it is not really a question of an Alexa/R1. Maybe more in the AMira/Aaton direction, if it can be kept reasonabley light.

Arri has done a smart thing in releasing many versions of the same camera fitted for different applications.
THAT does of course not mean RED should copy that approach. That said, it has been rather successfull.

But that does not postulate that the same approach would be good for RED. (even though I think that it might to some degree, bei it through modules or an alternative body for some applications like rental and large-scale productions)

 

[Mark L. Pederson]

Actually I am curious about people's opinions about what Red should be putting in the pipeline..... I would like to hear also from AC's about what they would like.... Dps, operators and AC's that is all. No post people, no producers.....

Okay - these are my ideas based on talking to a ton of Dps, operators and AC's - and over the last week or so fact checking with top sound guys. All of these specs are 100% possible with current DSMC brain/system - I'm not going to list any specs that I would like that may, or may not be possible. Making a "new camera body" does open the door to some stuff not possible on current DSMC and I'd feed those ideas directly to RED if they want.

For the record, CDL and 3D LUT support are 100% software related. The camera can already apply color transforms now and can load color transform files now - so ... proper CDL and 3D LUT support requires exactly ZERO change to hardware. I'm clueless on RED's reluctance to impliment because both workflows are used with RAW workflows all the time.

MODULES:

MORE important, and EASIER than a 4K LIVE OUT moulde and/or a PROXY record module would be the following:

Create TWO separate IO Modules. I'll circle back to my agruement on why they should be separate later.

#1: PRO WIFI IO Module - aka PRO IO Module 2.0

Ideal length - 4" - it's all about the LEAST number of connectors possible, better design (angle BNC connectors, etc.)

A. Put the REDMOTE screen on the side of the module alond with nice, solid, oval push buttons (see Alexa, Amira). Use the exact same screen component - and you can use same GUI, etc. - just more rugged buttons - and user definable buttons - built into the camera (module). There are a number of advantages to this - and I have not heard one AC or Operator who I pitch this too not say "I would love that".

B. additional EVF/LCD connection - I think we all understand this and don't need to discuss

C. 5-pin lemo TC input - EVERY production needs to jam TC.

D. THREE video out BNC's - one Preview, TWO Program

E. GPIO (and aux power) - 4-pin lemo

F. Genlock (honestly - we rarely use this and I could arugue that when genlock is needed - you grab it off a cable to the 00b lemo on the bottom of the brain - BUT - I'm pretty sure with Pizzo in the house - they could get 4 BNC's within a tight, 4" module.

G. WIFI board for WIFI control - and an 3rd party API

BONUS: I'm not sure how much the current Epic brain hold in storage - but being able to hold MORE CalMap (blackshade profiles) and CDL/3D LUT/LOOK files is important - so ... it might be VERY smart to add an SD card slot.

#2: Audio IO Module

Now, the reason I think it's important to separate audio and other IO onto TWO separate moudle is the following: There are MANY customers that would not care about WIFI and already the +1 module, etc. - and just want proper audio inputs with LINE/MIC level w/gain control, etc. - so those guys could buy just the Audio IO module - and buy the PRO IO WIFI later if they want - and MOST TV/Films don't run audio to the camera - so those guys could rock just the PRO IO WIFI and skip the Audio IO. It also allows the possibility to create a different Audio IO later if wanted - like a Zaxcom wireless audio/TC module or a Ambient Clockit Network Module, etc. - I think it's very forward thinking to separate the audio from the data/video IO - and it would be less expensive than the Pro IO Wifi Module and many customers will like the ability to stay as small as they are now - and just add audio IO when audio IO is needed.

I did some fast and hard research with some pro audio guys - and also the manufactures - and the key things that came up were the following:

Mini-XLR is the "new standard" - except, unlike the RED ONE - industry is standardizing on MALE recepticals for AUDIO INPUT - see the new Sound devices 633 - http://www.sounddevices.com/products/633/images/

Having 4 channels of input is important for MANY. Great news here is that four male mini-XLR recepticales could be done in a very thin module.

So ... here would be my specs for audio IO:

A. 4 mini-XLR (M) audio inputs (on right side of camera)
B. 5-pin XLR Audio Out - supports two channels of balanced audio out (on right side of camera)
C. 5-pin lemo for TimeCode (on right side of camera) okay that this is redundant to PRO WIFI Module.

D. Each input has a switch - LINE or MIC (on left side of camera - AMIRA puts some audio controls on LEFT side of camera an it keeps the sound guy out of the way of the ACs)

E. Each input has a GAIN control knob - one that you can click down, click up and rotate dial, then click down - just like on the SoundDevices 633 (on left side of camera)

BONUS - on the left side of camera: LED meters for each channel green/red with exact DB markings
either 4 columns of color LEDs green and red with exact DB etched markings on the module OR a small, specifc LCD screen like on the AMIRA - I suspect it's cheaper and easier to just do 4 columns of color LEDs

SUPER BONUS/OVERKILL: add a LTC TC display.

 

[D Fuller]

Love this post.

Okay - these are my ideas based on talking to a ton of Dps, operators and AC's - and over the last week or so fact checking with top sound guys. All of these specs are 100% possible with current DSMC brain/system - I'm not going to list any specs that I would like that may, or may not be possible. Making a "new camera body" does open the door to some stuff not possible on current DSMC and I'd feed those ideas directly to RED if they want.

For the record, CDL and 3D LUT support are 100% software related. The camera can already apply color transforms now and can load color transform files now - so ... proper CDL and 3D LUT support requires exactly ZERO change to hardware. I'm clueless on RED's reluctance to impliment because both workflows are used with RAW workflows all the time.

MODULES:

MORE important, and EASIER than a 4K LIVE OUT moulde and/or a PROXY record module would be the following:

Create TWO separate IO Modules. I'll circle back to my agruement on why they should be separate later.

#1: PRO WIFI IO Module - aka PRO IO Module 2.0

Ideal length - 4" - it's all about the LEAST number of connectors possible, better design (angle BNC connectors, etc.)

A. Put the REDMOTE screen on the side of the module alond with nice, solid, oval push buttons (see Alexa, Amira). Use the exact same screen component - and you can use same GUI, etc. - just more rugged buttons - and user definable buttons - built into the camera (module). There are a number of advantages to this - and I have not heard one AC or Operator who I pitch this too not say "I would love that".

B. additional EVF/LCD connection - I think we all understand this and don't need to discuss

C. 5-pin lemo TC input - EVERY production needs to jam TC.

D. THREE video out BNC's - one Preview, TWO Program

E. GPIO (and aux power) - 4-pin lemo

F. Genlock (honestly - we rarely use this and I could arugue that when genlock is needed - you grab it off a cable to the 00b lemo on the bottom of the brain - BUT - I'm pretty sure with Pizzo in the house - they could get 4 BNC's within a tight, 4" module.

G. WIFI board for WIFI control - and an 3rd party API

BONUS: I'm not sure how much the current Epic brain hold in storage - but being able to hold MORE CalMap (blackshade profiles) and CDL/3D LUT/LOOK files is important - so ... it might be VERY smart to add an SD card slot.

#2: Audio IO Module

Now, the reason I think it's important to separate audio and other IO onto TWO separate moudle is the following: There are MANY customers that would not care about WIFI and already the +1 module, etc. - and just want proper audio inputs with LINE/MIC level w/gain control, etc. - so those guys could buy just the Audio IO module - and buy the PRO IO WIFI later if they want - and MOST TV/Films don't run audio to the camera - so those guys could rock just the PRO IO WIFI and skip the Audio IO. It also allows the possibility to create a different Audio IO later if wated.

I did some fast and hard research with some pro audio guys - and also the manufactures - and the key things that came up were the following:

Mini-XLR is the "new standard" - except, unlike the RED ONE - industry is standardizing on MALE recepticals for AUDIO INPUT - see the new Sound devices 633 - http://www.sounddevices.com/products/633/images/

Having 4 channels of input is important for MANY. Great news here is that four male mini-XLR recepticales could be done in a very thin module.

So ... here would be my specs for audio IO:

A. 4 mini-XLR (M) audio inputs (on right side of camera)
B. 5-pin XLR Audio Out - supports two channels of balanced audio out (on right side of camera)
C. 5-pin lemo for TimeCode (on right side of camera) okay that this is redundant to PRO WIFI Module.

Each input has a switch - LINE or MIC (on left side of camera - AMIRA puts some audio controls on LEFT side of camera an it keeps the sound guy out of the way of the ACs)

Each input has a GAIN control knob - one that you can click down, click up and rotate dial, then click down - just like on the SoundDevices 633 (on left side of camera)

BONUS - on the left side of camera: LED meters for each channel green/red with exact DB markings
either 4 columns of color LEDs green and red with exact DB etched markings on the module OR a small, specifc LCD screen like on the AMIRA - I suspect it's cheaper and easier to just do 4 columns of color LEDs

SUPER BONUS/OVERKILL: add a LTC TC display.

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

Red Paintbox.

Wireless look shaping tool. Options- export as 3DLUT or save as individual metadata for detailed tweaking in controlled light conditions.

Grabs and works on .r3d still. Video feed and tons of processing power are not necessary. Different UI than Redcine. Computer or tablet functions as a control panel, camera outputs the result to a broadcast monitor.
Metadata lock feature with password.

 

[utku sonmezer]

1-A better evf
2-Some kind of power distribution box

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

Wired module extension for steadicam and tight spaces.

 

[David Battistella]

This is is really great stuff guys, lots of aspects of production being covered and many good considerations that could be implemented.

@hrvoje, like the idea of a paintbox that controls monitoring..

@mark, such a detailed response! I think a lot of what you have mentioned can be created with an action products setup. I don't want to take anything away from RED, but I think they could save reams of time developing accessories by partnering or offering a special package and maybe work with them like they did element technical. There was an ID by red program for a while I think that Action products stuff covers much of what is asked for here, like.

Power distribution
tc io
wireless module
dual XLR (albeit mic only) but they could put attenuated cables between the XLR and the front input that would convert line levels to mic
video distribution

What at i'm liking so much here is that much already exists and the R&D has been done, much of it is available today. This is one place it would be nice to see some collaboration with a company that makes using RED cameras a better, professional and highly functional experience.

Have to say. Any proxy module should include an SD card and CF card port to record these low data rate streams and use off the shelf media for things like black shading and firmware updates. Users would love you for this because that media is something a producer can walk away with and any edit suite on earth can import from.

Battistella

ps, thanks for keeping things so constructive so far.

 

[Martin Stevens]

Great stuff Gentlemen.

:emote_popcorn::emote_popcorn::emote_popcorn:

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

Good idea for a thread, David.
Brings back good memories as well...

Hats off.

 

[Mark L. Pederson]

@mark, such a detailed response! I think a lot of what you have mentioned can be created with an action products setup. I don't want to take anything away from RED, but I think they could save reams of time developing accessories by partnering or offering a special package and maybe work with them like they did element technical.

respectfully - I disagree 100%

I'm very familiar with Action Products set up - and it is NOT at all what I described.

 

[David Battistella]

respectfully - I disagree 100%

I'm very familiar with Action Products set up - and it is NOT at all what I described.

mark,

I appreciate you position and perhaps could have been more considered in my wording. Action products is not at all anywhere near all that you described but is perhaps the most functional way to professionally address "some" of the things you describe. It really just extends what is already available on the camera perhaps putting things in a more set friendly place. It's would not fulfill all of what you describe, but I point to their work as a constructive starting point to put alongside whatever RED wants to develop. To me, the logic of how they design makes sense.

I encourage age everyone to read through your whole post (as there is a lot there) but I did not want to decipher it point for point, nor did I meant to oversimplify it with my response. It's more like action products is a basic version to start with.

FYI, I've been a big fan of bringing back the mini XLR, bit for quality and form factor.

Battistella