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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

RED - DSLRs and where the market is heading.

Terry VerHaar said:
Something of a philosophical question... how does one actually know if one's vision is sharper than someone else since the experience is completely subjective and can't be shared? Kind of like how different is the red color you see vs. the red color I see? :huh:
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Well no, you can have your vision checked at the optometrist. You can have more than 20/20, and I do.
 
Dan Kanes said:
Right now it's all hype - more for less.
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There's a lot of (inaccurate) hype surrounding the whole DSLR/digital segment at the moment... but I wouldn't say it's purely linked to the price argument (look at the cases here when RED and 5D quotes have been the same). The closest analogy I could find would be... the 5D is in fashion right now. I find it hard to be believe there could be fads and trends in the camera industry for non -cost and -quality related reasons... but it seems there are.
 
Michael Hastings said:
I have a DP friend who just took a 5D job, he quoted them the same price for RED and they wanted 5D (he has several for other purposes). When he tried to talk them out of the 5D and into the RED, they said they wanted the 5D and "you're not instilling confidence in us".

Meaning he almost talked himself OUT of the job.

Unfortunately, clients want what they want and it can be difficult and dangerous to try to talk them into a different direction.
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Which is why I started my thread some time back about this very problem.

A little bit of knowledge is dangerous (which is a famous quote, I forget from who) and that's what clients have, just a little bit of knowledge with all the caveats in this case hard to explain (web compression hiding flaws and relative merits, teh fact that many shots not in these "awesome demos" are not present - like deep-focus shots, the fact that those excited are themselves not very knowledgeable). I have my own counter-hype now, which seems to work well - I say "I plan to use the same cameras they used on Knowing and Gamer" - if they argue more I say "show me a high-end feature (or any feature) shot on 5D". Otherwise I just walk away - because I am the one who will suffer through the job and through post long after the agency art director is off doing drugs with DJs at the latest cool club.

Here in Quebec and Europe the cult of the amateur is not as fervent - there is less the preception that Uncle Harry is as good an expert as anyone, so it's a bit easier, because internet "experts" on Vimeo and youtube on not really taken all that seriously, but still, their effect is felt.

My best trick is to show side-by-sides. I have my own footage demo that shows problems some of the clips are off-air, so no one can blame me for flasifying anything- it makes the other guy selling 5D work look like a dangerous and inexperienced fool, or a fatuous trend-whore, or both, and then not only gets me the job that one time but burns that other guy in my clients' minds
 
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General consensus in Poland is, DONT BUY a CAMERA now. and I think epecially investing in an expensive system like EPIC is not the right time.
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The general consensus in Poland is dead wrong, then. Watch and see as Epic rips a hole through the cine market.
 
Rob Ruffo said:
........

My best trick is to show side-by-sides. I have my own footage demo that shows problems some of the clips are off-air, so no one can blame me for flasifying anything- it makes the other guy selling 5D work look like a dangerous and inexperienced fool, or a fatuous trend-whore, or both, and then not only gets me the job that one time but burns that other guy in my clients' minds
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Actually that is a very expert tactical maneuver.
 
I'm a student at Palm Beach State College down in South Florida. I'm currently studying Motion Picture Production after transferring from a Computer Animation BFA at another school. My current school has a Red One camera and an Arri 16mm that they let us use on student productions for our director's and cinematographer's reels. That's mostly the reason I have an account here.

That being said, I'm saving up for a Canon T2i and I'm really excited about it! I make $10 at my part-time job, so it's slow going, but I eagerly anticipate having a camera to experiment and do my student work on whenever I want and not having to wait to use the school stuff. Don't get me wrong, I really like the Red and Arri cameras, but there's a million and one things I want to try and I think having a DSLR I can have full access to is really going to help me become a better filmmaker.

The farther down the rabbit hole I go, the more I realize that filmmaking is less about all the technical mumbo-jumbo and more about the truth of the performance, the risk taken by the actors, the trust between all involved, and the collaboration between the director and talent. I see so many short films that are so emotionally effecting because of the talent filmed, and not because of the equipment used to film the talent. Some Folks Call It a Sling Blade and the Academy Award winning Lunch Date are but two examples of this.

But of course if, after cutting my teeth for a while, a studio wants to give me money to film something on a grander scale I'll certainly pick a more robust camera. I just would never buy one myself. Not that I have access to that kind of money anyways.
 
David Mullen ASC said:
I'm sure all the makers of real digital cinema cameras (Red, Arri, Dalsa, Silicon Imaging, Vision Research, etc.) can tell you that getting a single sensor camera to run at those high frame rates without overheating and then either recording the full sensor in RAW or converting it in-camera from RAW to RGB without resorting to decimating the data coming off the sensor... well, it's a lot harder than it looks. I think for a Canon to really do what it should, which is allow RAW recording, or a full in-camera debayer of the full sensor to RGB, requires a lot of processing horsepower, and by the time Canon is finished upgrading the DSLR to handle that, the prices may not seem much different than what Red's products will be selling for.
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I agree. If a canon tried to do what the Red does in terms of raw data rates etc. The plastic Canon camera would melt and die in a Under a minute. I am not sure Canon cares to compete with Red, they are selling millions of cameras doing what they do. The vast majority of Canon buyers are not production professionals, they are soccer moms and dentists on vacation shooting their kids. If Canon wanted to go after the Red market, which I suppose they may, they would certainly need to create an new catagory of camera, they can't do it with plastic DSLR's. The line skipping thing is unavoidable, due to the need to get 1080 off a sensor that has twice that natively. The camera can't use the whole sensor and then down convert on the fly, too much processing involved. So they only use part of it (line skipping) rather than window down, Which they won't do because of the need for live view. I have seen beautiful motion pictures from a Canon, it's called time-lapse, using the whole raw image, not the video feature. I don't have much hope that DSLRs will get souped up to compete with the high end gear. My 2 cents, I welcome corrections and other points of view.
 
Vladimir Cassel said:
I'm a student at Palm Beach State College down in South Florida. I'm currently studying Motion Picture Production after transferring from a Computer Animation BFA at another school. My current school has a Red One camera and an Arri 16mm that they let us use on student productions for our director's and cinematographer's reels. That's mostly the reason I have an account here.

That being said, I'm saving up for a Canon T2i and I'm really excited about it! I make $10 at my part-time job, so it's slow going, but I eagerly anticipate having a camera to experiment and do my student work on whenever I want and not having to wait to use the school stuff. Don't get me wrong, I really like the Red and Arri cameras, but there's a million and one things I want to try and I think having a DSLR I can have full access to is really going to help me become a better filmmaker.

The farther down the rabbit hole I go, the more I realize that filmmaking is less about all the technical mumbo-jumbo and more about the truth of the performance, the risk taken by the actors, the trust between all involved, and the collaboration between the director and talent. I see so many short films that are so emotionally effecting because of the talent filmed, and not because of the equipment used to film the talent. Some Folks Call It a Sling Blade and the Academy Award winning Lunch Date are but two examples of this.

But of course if, after cutting my teeth for a while, a studio wants to give me money to film something on a grander scale I'll certainly pick a more robust camera. I just would never buy one myself. Not that I have access to that kind of money anyways.
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Maybe you want to be a scriptwriter, and that's a great goal, but "technical mumbo jumbo" is THE JOB of a DOP, a post-production supervisor, and many other important people on a film. I suggest you give what they do its due respect, them their due respect, and they will respond in kind.

that said, 5Ds are whatevers are GREAT student tools. They're just not really high-grade pro ones.
 
Nick Burridge said:
There's a lot of (inaccurate) hype surrounding the whole DSLR/digital segment at the moment... but I wouldn't say it's purely linked to the price argument (look at the cases here when RED and 5D quotes have been the same). The closest analogy I could find would be... the 5D is in fashion right now. I find it hard to be believe there could be fads and trends in the camera industry for non -cost and -quality related reasons... but it seems there are.
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I think this is a lot of the case too, having suffered the same kind of job loss to the 5D MkII.

The upside of this is that when Epic hits, those who are into the latest fashion cameras will all jump ship and we'll benefit. Hopefully at that point the resulting footage will also blow people away anew such that they realise that the Canons, while fine for web video etc, just don't hold a candle (literally - see this thread) to Red.

Cheers,

Paul
 
Rob Ruffo said:
Maybe you want to be a scriptwriter, and that's a great goal, but "technical mumbo jumbo" is THE JOB of a DOP, a post-production supervisor, and many other important people on a film. I suggest you give what they do its due respect, them their due respect, and they will respond in kind.

that said, 5Ds are whatevers are GREAT student tools. They're just not really high-grade pro ones.
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They do have my respect. But I do feel I'm right in my recent shift away from facts and figures and towards actually feeling. As far as scripted narrative is concerned I just think story, understanding of that story through analysis with the talent, trust and collaboration with the talent, and communication with the talent are more important than the tools used. And I think that mastery of those things will show more if I'm a pro or not than what camera I use.
 
I think what Bob is saying is that it takes a village to make a film. It is the job of the DP's in that village to be technical and concerned about cameras, lights and gear so that producers and screenwriters and actors don't have to. The students of film are immersed in the study of the whole art form and process and can therefore take a much broader view of film making. I was a student once too, and really always will be. But in the real world there are specialists in every department, that everyone else relies on to know their stuff. On this form those specialists are predominately DP's, AC's and other camera folks.
 
Mark Andersen said:
I think what Bob is saying is that it takes a village to make a film. It is the job of the DP's in that village to be technical and concerned about cameras, lights and gear so that producers and screenwriters and actors don't have to. The students of film are immersed in the study of the whole art form and process and can therefore take a much broader view of film making. I was a student once too, and really always will be. But in the real world there are specialists in every department, that everyone else relies on to know their stuff. On this form those specialists are predominately DP's, AC's and other camera folks.
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Yes, I'm aware of this. Not that I don't think I have a lot to learn from the people and professionals of this board, but I don't feel that that really helps. And I'm not here to advocate for DSLRs either. Truth be told, if I could have any cam right now that would be appropriate for the kind of work I'd like to do it would be the Arri 16mm.

I'm just saying that Red cameras aren't always within the grasp of everyone who has intent and vision. Even the Scarlett will be just out of my budget to own. But that doesn't mean all is lost. In the realm of filmmakers who have no choice, money, or resources of crew other than attempt to be an 'auteur', professionalism is not the sole domain of having great equipment. As many examples exist that professional and exemplary visual narrative can be crafted out of less than professional and exemplary tools. I just hope that you keep the less fortunate of us in mind when you decide to use euphemisms to infer at what cost competence and professionalism comes at.
 
I have to say that my 5Dii has a cinematic look. More so than my HVX. But also has a cinematic look. It's just a huge piece of kit. huge post process. EPIC and Scarlet S35 will fix that, but there are just some things that require small cameras, great depth of field, cinematic images, etc.

Scarlet S35 can't get here soon enough. Every day that passes, the more I use the the 5Dii and the more I invest in it. More lenses, batteries, supports, etc.

Yes, technically, the dSLR's are horrible, but they look pretty good, even at 1080 and you can really do digital filmmaking on them. I just wish I could get an S35 Scarlet.

And as soon as Stage 3.5 comes around, i'm getting an EPIC, woot!
 
Vladimir Cassel said:
They do have my respect. But I do feel I'm right in my recent shift away from facts and figures and towards actually feeling. As far as scripted narrative is concerned I just think story, understanding of that story through analysis with the talent, trust and collaboration with the talent, and communication with the talent are more important than the tools used. And I think that mastery of those things will show more if I'm a pro or not than what camera I use.
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As a director, maybe (although to me a really good director knows what you list AND tech BOTH), as a writer, maybe, as a DP NO. A DP or post-prod director "who just feels" is a total flake who has no place a pro set.

I'd go as far as to say that even scriptwriting, when done well, has a lot fo math and clear thought. You can't write a watchable film that has no structure, no logic, no clear thought.

Cinema is not a hippie art form. Cinema requires feeling, sure, but tempered with many tech and mundane realities, from cameras to weather to scheduling to budget.
 
Vladimir Cassel said:
Yes, I'm aware of this. Not that I don't think I have a lot to learn from the people and professionals of this board, but I don't feel that that really helps. And I'm not here to advocate for DSLRs either. Truth be told, if I could have any cam right now that would be appropriate for the kind of work I'd like to do it would be the Arri 16mm.

I'm just saying that Red cameras aren't always within the grasp of everyone who has intent and vision. Even the Scarlett will be just out of my budget to own. But that doesn't mean all is lost. In the realm of filmmakers who have no choice, money, or resources of crew other than attempt to be an 'auteur', professionalism is not the sole domain of having great equipment. As many examples exist that professional and exemplary visual narrative can be crafted out of less than professional and exemplary tools. I just hope that you keep the less fortunate of us in mind when you decide to use euphemisms to infer at what cost competence and professionalism comes at.
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I hope I speak for all of us on this forum when I say I in no way look-down on students or people struggling with low budgets, and understand that they have to make all kinds of compromises as best they can. My snide comments are ONLY directed at those who have a lot of money to spend and nonetheless make crappy tool choices.
 
Rob Ruffo said:
I hope I speak for all of us on this forum when I say I in no way look-down on students or people struggling with low budgets, and understand that they have to make all kinds of compromises as best they can. My snide comments are ONLY directed at those who have a lot of money to spend and nonetheless make crappy tool choices.
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No offense taken.:grouphug:
:smilielol5:
 
Thomas Koch said:
......
And as soon as Stage 3.5 comes around, i'm getting an EPIC, woot!
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Same here, we've actually adjusted our budget to purchase 2 Epics when the general store opens, partly because of the feature set but mainly not feeling secure that the Scarlet will reach market in a timely fashion.
 
I'll say it again...

Red is the new Digital Film.

HDSLR is the new MiniDV.

Remember when people said the XL-1 was revolutionary?

I remember only seeing one piece of content ever filmed on XL1 that I personally enjoyed: 28 days later. That was a cool film. I don't even like horror films - but that was REALLY cool.

It would be nice if the perceived savings of shooting on an HDSLR allowed producers to spend more money on lights, locations, costuming, actors, crew rates, craft service etc... But that is just not the case.

The trend is about three things:

1."more" perceived image quality for less money.
2. Size and weight factors which are a delta to budget and manpower.
3." Famous" people and "big" shows testing with or pledging allegiance to these cameras.

If you can't admit that the idea or zeitgeist of the hdslr is in some way "neat" you are wrong. I can't wait to use a Red designed camera that is smaller. Epic. It will be Epic.

It would be negligent of ME as a cinematographer to use an HDSLR on a shoot that calls for a digital camera with high image quality, and has the necessary budget and manpower to use the camera safely and correctly.
 
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