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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Red Dragon Info and Data Sheets

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  • #63
oliver imfeld said:
is there already a list for lens coverage @ 6K ?
cheers, o

ps: i mean PL lenses and zooms, including red zooms and RPP
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Not an official list just yet. There are a lot of lenses out there. I have been making observations during the last year or so of shooting and lens tests.

Here's what I'll say and a good thing to keep in mind:

- Dragon 5K, nearly every S35 lens designed should cover safely.
- Dragon 5.5K, any lens that covers the Mysterium-X 5K Full should cover this format.
- Dragon 6K, all FF35 glass will cover this format.

Certain modern S35 lenses will cover Dragon 6K. However, there are particular focal lengths that will likely not cover. Those are likely the 18mm and 24/25mm from each prime set. However, for most high end modern primes you may see coverage from 35mm and longer lengths.

Once I have Dragon in my hands I'll do some hard core lens tests for coverage.

S35 sooms are the real mess. As they often don't cover much on the wide end, but tend to cover more (and even sometimes less) on the telephoto end. I'll do my best to test as much as I can, but there are certainly a lot of lenses out there. My priority sets are going to be the ones that people use on productions regularly.
 
Phil, first let me say; you’re doing a fantastic JOB, I can’t say it LOUD enough!

I do have a request, if you find the time, it would be good to have the measurement for the Image Circle for 6000x3000, because it fits within the 6K borders, it’s larger than 5.5K, and it leaves a smidgen of space around the corners for various uses. It’s also 18,000,000 Pixels (18 Megapixels) even with-20% = 14,400,000 (14.4 Megapixels) @ 2:1 Aspect Ratio. More than enough for 8.8 Megapixel “True 35mm Frame” at 2.40:1 for “Theatrical Release” @ 4K. Thanks!

Humberto Rivera
 
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  • #65
Humberto Rivera said:
Phil, first let me say; you’re doing a fantastic JOB, I can’t say it LOUD enough!

I do have a request, if you find the time, it would be good to have the measurement for the Image Circle for 6000x3000, because it fits within the borders, it’s larger than 5.5K, and it leaves a smidgen of space around the corners for various uses. It’s also 18,000,000 Pixels (18 Megapixels) even with-20% = 14,400,000 (14.4 Megapixels) @ 2:1 Aspect Ratio. More than enough for 8.8 Megapixel “True 35mm Frame” at 2.40:1 for “Theatrical Release” @ 4K. Thanks!
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Cheers Humberto. My Dragon Robot tells me:

6000x3000 pixels =
29.98x14.99mm =
diagonal of 33.52mm =
a crop factor of 1.21:1
 
I want ot see footage as well.... It is very interesting, why RED did not posted no one footage as sample.... Very interesting to see high ISO samples...
 
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  • #70
I Bloom said:
Is there any good information about the ADC on the new sensor? Any idea about the native bit depth of the chip itself?
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Don't know, but I have a good guess. Until official info is released though there's no reason to speculate.


Brett Clements said:
Has anybody posted any footage yet?
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Sergey Afanasiev said:
I want ot see footage as well.... It is very interesting, why RED did not posted no one footage as sample.... Very interesting to see high ISO samples...
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Peter Proniewicz-Brooks said:
i believe they are still working on the colour science to get said image. Very frustrating.
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Red will post footage once they are ready. Alpha firmware and color science are obviously priorities. I understand the frustration from folks who want to see more images from Dragon. However, be patient. There's every reason in the world for Red to nail both the firmware and color science.

The way i look at things are Red's announced a new sensor (and essentially camera models). It's going to an improvement over the Mysterium-X sensor in several ways and also gives you access to additional resolution. It's coming. If you are interested in it, Red is giving you a bit of window to prepare yourself to fund your path. If you are purchasing a new Dragon body you'll have a bit more time than those who are upgrading to make your decision. Which also likely means you'll see experienced Red shooters posting Dragon material to help inform your decision.

If you're currently an Epic or Scarlet owner you know the paths given to you. I actually think the Epic folks have it easy. One way street to Dragon. Scarlet owners have a lot of good options presented to them however and at a variety of price points. I've been answering the phone and talking to both types of owners and discussing the upgrade paths. Some fun conversations. Right now is the time to raise funds, make "path" decisions, and figure out how to get to Dragon if you desire the specifications that have been released. Most people that are Red owners already know what they want to do. It seems to be a matter of if they have the funds and when they can upgrade.

In terms of the footage. It'll come. Red's done good with the Mysterium-X sensor. Dragon will be an improvement. I trust that. Web encoded video isn't going to likely tell anybody a whole lot, but we'll be getting full resolution stills or maybe .R3Ds relatively soon and that will help you make some decisions. Heck. Maybe a 4K video of some sort. Who knows.
 
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  • #73
Cheers gents. Update a couple details and cleared up some the text now that there's a bit more info.
 
Awesome info Phil, thanks for doing this ... my question is on the new Cooke Anamorphic lens coverage, which says in the technical sheet "33.54mm Diameter (New Epic S35mm Format)".
So how I'm reading your chart and Björn diagram for anamorphics, and the Cooke technical data ... is that the Cooke Anamorphic first off will completely cover the 6k of the dragon, second that it will have a frame view that is a bit larger then FF ... did I get this right? Exciting stuff.

Björn Benckert said:
...
To me the 6k stuff is quite amazing. Especially for us that shoot anamorphic. Not many people understands that allready at MX 5k ana you get a much larger optical sensor area and coverage with anamorpic lenses than with spherical lenses, even though the real sensor area is cropped in ana mode. As the ana sensor area should be considered as wide x2 in coverage and size, (not in pixel count)... So just to illustrate the optical size of 6k ana I made this little add on to Phils nice picture. Where the brown is the frame you acutally would see with anamorphics in 6k..
So even if you do have less pixels in ana mode you for sure have a bigger sensor than you got in FF mode.
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  • #75
PatrickFaith said:
Awesome info Phil, thanks for doing this ... my question is on the new Cooke Anamorphic lens coverage, which says in the technical sheet "33.54mm Diameter (New Epic S35mm Format)".
So how I'm reading your chart and Björn diagram for anamorphics, and the Cooke technical data ... is that the Cooke Anamorphic first off will completely cover the 6k of the dragon, second that it will have a frame view that is a bit larger then FF ... did I get this right? Exciting stuff.
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I'll have to take a look at that coverage info.

When I was using my Iscorama 1.5X anamorphic and PV 100mm 2X on formats like FF35 I would "squash" the frame vertically to create my final anamorphic image. You'd be able to potentially do the same thing if the coverage was there on Dragon Full Frame.

Typically you are unsqueezing the 1.22:1 of the Red ANA format, which provided a similar effect to how this all worked on S35.

So there might be a couple different ways to tackle anamorphic with large sensors like Dragon.
 
Great info Phil! Thank you.

How are you calculating the size of the smaller formats for the Crop Factors, Dimensions, and Diagonals chart?

I used (30.70/6144)*2048=10.23, to use 2K as an example, and got slightly different numbers than you.
 
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  • #77
Lee Saxon said:
How are you calculating the size of the smaller formats for the Crop Factors, Dimensions, and Diagonals chart?
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I first crop the FF35 frame to a 1.94:1 aspect ratio to give it relevance to Dragon as we as shooter rarely are framing for corners, but rather borders. All of the crop factors and then calculated based on that aspect ratio to give it format relevance to the full sensor.

All formats are measured in millimeters and pixel dimensions.

So basically crop factor is in relation to the native aspect ratio of the full Dragon sensor at 6K.
 
Hey Phil (or anyone else that can answer),

What is the exact resolution of the different frame sizes in 6K? Looking for Full Frame, 2:1, Wide Screen, HD, and Anamorphic.
 
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  • #79
Caleb Vetter said:
Hey Phil (or anyone else that can answer),

What is the exact resolution of the different frame sizes in 6K? Looking for Full Frame, 2:1, Wide Screen, HD, and Anamorphic.
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That's easy as it's now in the Operations Guide PDF that can be downloaded.

6K Full Frame = 6144x3160
6K 2:1 = 6144x3072
6K WS = 6144x2592
6K HD = 5568x3132

The odd duck out here is 6K HD which break a bit of the mold on the resolution scheme. I think there's mathematical reasons for it being that particular resolution rather than the full height of the sensor.
 
Awesome. Thanks so much!

Could you point me toward that PDF? I don't seem to be able to find it in their downloads list. I'm still needing to get the Anamorphic resolution. I found one source that looks like a calculated guess of 3863 x 3160 but they also missed the HD format by a few :)
 
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