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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Red Dragon Dynamic Range ++

:beer:
Brice Ansel said:
No I'm not, you no I'm an idiot when it is about talking camera and gears. ;-)

Nice pics by the way

:cheers2:
Click to expand...

OK, thanks Brice...and anyway let's go back to Dragon DR topic!!!

:cheers2:
 
the one weakness I see with the DRAGON is its inability to accurately represent elephant skin tones. :ihih:

such a beautiful shot. this is brilliant. thanks for sharing.

seems like it is almost going to be a challenge to get those nice blown highlights that we enjoy, if anything.

super, super beautiful moment. you are a lucky man, Tom, to be among elephants.
 
Meryem Ersoz said:
the one weakness I see with the DRAGON is its inability to accurately represent elephant skin tones. :ihih:

.
Click to expand...

And I'm sure it's a total bummer with chameleon skin tones as well!

No, seriously: Post a 5 second clip of that elephant and we have a new milk girl.

...

Not many people can read that in context....

JOchen
 
Hey Tom! Thanks for taking the time to share all of your wonderful findings. I think you're the perfect person to break Dragon in and put it through its paces.

I am curious though... some of the shots I'm seeing from Dragon have an HDR/tonemapped look to them... perhaps it's just that there's more dynamic range available so the images are lending themselves more to that kind of look, but the thing I never liked about such shots is that the relationship between the luminosity of objects changes unnaturally in the frame. For instance, say you shot bracketed exposures with a dSLR and in post you're able to pull down an otherwise blown out sky - but in doing so, the sky now becomes darker than other parts of the frame which shouldn't be brighter than the area that you're editing. It becomes unnatural and frankly really strange looking to me. I don't really understand why some people are drawn to that look, but there do seem to be a lot of fans out there. Do you think there's some kind of magic sauce manipulation going on within Dragon to eek out maximum DR by shifting values around, or does the footage you've been working with feel natural to you? I haven't seen enough footage (or better yet worked with it) to get a good enough feel about it, but what I have seen has given me some pause. Just curious on your thoughts.

Thanks again for taking the time; I know how consuming it is and we all appreciate it!
 
Wow, that is an incredible shot, Tom you are an artist and that camera is amazing.
 
Häakon makes a good point about the way in which HDR photography can look a bit artificial. Reminds me of HDRX testing results.

Can you stuff 14-16 stops into a 9-10 stop container and have it still look natural?

Don't get me wrong, I'm stoked to have the image information. That said, once you get past the wonderment of HDR imagery, IMO, making appropriate choices about what to "throw away" in development becomes a key part of authoring the final image to suit intent.

Bring on the 12 stop displays please... ;-)

Cheers - #19
 
If you want to see all 16 stops of recorded DR from the Dragon, I suspect you're probably going to have to look at a flatter log-ish image on a monitor -- cramming it into a 11-stop Rec.709 space to look normal in contrast would require something like knee compression, luminance keys, grads, etc. Just as with any originating format with a lot of DR, like film negative.
 
I agree. If you're not used to acquiring images with large DR, and are not comfortable color grading, you may be in for a big surprise. Doing just overall contrast adjustments, will be throwing a lot of data out the window. For images to look contrasty and full of nice tonal range, is a skillful art that colorists get little credit for.

David Mullen ASC said:
If you want to see all 16 stops of recorded DR from the Dragon, I suspect you're probably going to have to look at a flatter log-ish image on a monitor -- cramming it into a 11-stop Rec.709 space to look normal in contrast would require something like knee compression, luminance keys, grads, etc. Just as with any originating format with a lot of DR, like film negative.
Click to expand...
 
Häakon said:
I am curious though... some of the shots I'm seeing from Dragon have an HDR/tonemapped look to them...
Click to expand...

I can hear you; have had precisely the same thoughts when grading some Epic HDRX shots. This has also to do with the dynamics and bright white levels of the displays. Outdoors the whites are so bright that they dazzle the eye. On monitors the level is much lower, and hence, the difficulty to retain the relative level between the whites and shadows/blacks.
 
Humberto Rivera said:
I just put this quick chart under the Photo of the Elephant; I thought I would share-it!

Progression of 17 T-stops (0.35-0.5-0.7-1-1.4-2-2.8- 4-5.6-8-11-16-22-32-44–64-88) are powers of the square root of √2.
ASA/ISO 125-250-500-1,000-2,000–4,000–8,000–16,000–32,000–64,000–128,000–250,000-500,000-1,000,000 ASA/ISO

Humberto Rivera
Click to expand...

So you measured 17 stops?
 
Dolby has shown some previews of technology they are working on for the next generation after their PRM-42 monitor - AFAIK the current champ in display DR at roughly 11 stops.

Sources who cannot comment publicly have suggested 1600nits is being tested for full white (superwhite in current description).

I have heard quite a variety of numbers for delivered contrast ratio/dynamic range in commercial theatrical exhibition. Does anyone have solid metrics to share?

Cheers - #19
 
What ISO was this shot with? There's quite a bit of noise in the dark areas on the elephant, although it could be grade introduced. My guess is 4,000 ISO?
 
I bet he exposed that elephant way under to hold the sky, then dug it out. Native is 2000 right?
 
Sorry if it looks a little too pushed for some people. Tom asked me to go for it to see what was really down there, just part of taking the Dragon out for a spin.

That's why it probably looks a little un-photographic. As David Mullen said, when you have that many stops to compress, you have to do some tricks to make something that will both show dynamic range and not be totally milky.

We just did some keys and windows on a 16bit log debayer. Nothing too fancy.
 
Ian Vertovec said:
Sorry if it looks a little too pushed for some people. Tom asked me to go for it to see what was really down there, just part of taking the Dragon out for a spin.

That's why it probably looks a little un-photographic. As David Mullen said, when you have that many stops to compress, you have to do some tricks to make something that will both show dynamic range and not be totally milky.

We just did some keys and windows on a 16bit log debayer. Nothing too fancy.
Click to expand...
Can you post a clip of it in REDlogfilm?
 
I would also suggest that some judgements about DR and "look" and tone mapping are saved until one can see footage on a proper 4K projector or monitor.

I am sorry Red cannot release their new RCX but it isn't totally ready. When they do some r3ds will come out that everyone can play with. In a way this could seem a tease. So close yet a bit far. But understand that seeing Dragon footage through Red Ray on a 4K display is impressive
 
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