RED 8K Sensor Test 2017

[Anton Esteban]

What's interesting about this test is it seems the RED Helium with an STH OPLF is the one to use for color accuracy. After the Standard OPLF came out I never bothered putting the STH back in. But this test has made me rethink that. Since the Helium sensor should be rated a stop higher than Dragon, I think this combo is definitely the move.

Here's a link to some screen grabs from Resolve where you can compare OPLF's to a vectorscope. The points on the outside is where the DSC charts say the colors should be and the inner points is the measurement of the cameras in comparison. Overall, the Helium is closer to those points than the Dragon especially the Helium STH combo.

The green in the shadows is annoying but I've found a little hue vs saturation and hue vs hue and maybe some sat vs sat in resolve usually grades it out pretty easily. Just use the eyedropper on those curves and pull down and until its removed.

Screengrabs:
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/20qkph82dvsdi7p/AAAVnkYeRfj-b8UtKgO5Aql5a?dl=0

 

[Stacey Spears]

What's interesting about this test is it seems the RED Helium with an STH OPLF is the one to use for color accuracy.

Color accuracy is any interesting discussion. This is one of the topics Michael and I discussed in the doc. Light Iron color science is not about accurate color (WYSIWYG), it is more about cinematic colors and look.

This is an interesting issue for a camera maker. Should the color you capture be 100% accurate or should it be pleasing. ie having a look applied to it to make it more pleasing. This could be more saturated or colorful, for example.

Just something to think about. Different industries have different needs. I am fascinated by this.

 

[Phil Holland]

Why does Dragon bloom so much in the highlights?

Magnification variation from distance of camera to chart. I did it both ways, but for the purpose of the 14 minute test video in order to keep the Xyla patches the same scale the camera is either closer or further away from the chart. Perhaps some chaos from the larger sensor itself, but minimal worry there. This was an 8K for 8K test and as such scale is a concern.

Awesome Phil. Just amazing work on this.

Thank you Sage!

Thanks again for the meticulous research and clearly presented findings Phil.

I thought the ISO Rating Range and Personal ISO Rating Advice table in particular was a nice concise way of explaining where things are at in regards to ISO/OLPF/exposure combinations.

Looking forward to seeing more Helium and VV output from yourself and others.

ISO Rating is a fascinating concept and truly everybody can shoot however the heck they'd like, but, if you are looking for that Balanced ISO Rating Range for each OLPF this holds the answer and is very accurate.

Additionally if you are looking to create more "film-like" Dynamic Range, those recommendations get you in the ballpark. Modern Kodak stock is around 13 stops of DR in practical use. You can sneak 15 stops out of it if you are a ninja, but that's fairly rare. For me what's good about RED in so many ways is how well it equates to working with ISO just like you would with film. So those Balanced ISO Ratings are a good place to start.

Thank you Phil, you're amazing!

If I'm filming with Helium 8K & Dragon 6K, what changes do we have to do in color grading to make them match?
I wish if we had a LUT for Dragon, so it's easy to match to Ipp2 Helium, or the opposite. (would be good for 2 camera shoots Helium & Dragon).

Well you have to match them. I'll be making a few LUTs to do so, but overall this like many other matching situations with multiple cameras it's likely best to do uniquely for each type of lighting setup. There's a lot of pure variables that come into play with true matching. For instance I just had to explain how even T Stop can effect a true match as it commonly effects contrast and even color.

Overall though, they are pretty easy to match, so it's not a massive undertaking.

For the Skin Tone Test here, I'm actually more demonstrating the Balanced ISO and did indeed adjust the T Stop. This was to show a real world lighting scenario and general out of camera color.

Bless you Phil.....

Thank you Peter!

Got it thanks.Btw why there is no true ''RED'' color on those chart? all looks like an orange to my eyes.

If you look at the ring inside the DSC ChromaMatch chart that is the digital target, which is "red". For example Dragon STH is 7% off, Helium STH is 5% off. This is negligible as we are looking at the digital target versus an actual captured frame illuminated by a lightsource, which carries variables. Saturation is the real variable here.

Fairly easy to match accurately. But truthfully you don't want a 100% "video match" here. You want to see the chroma represented accurately, the tonality is a different concept as you want the general gamma from the captured source.

... Anyone else noticing the Weapon being a bit brighter than an epic D?

We did some side by side testing today between our CF weapon and a epic D and it is a little tricky to 'simply' quantify...

A brighter image (slightly more sensitive)
a slightly differnet noise floor height
different and better noise look and feel
Much more stable blacks
Very very slightly differnt colour balance

Yes, you are not crazy. Weapon Dragon has brought slight improvements in image quality over what you get out of Epic Dragon. They are subtle, but real.

 

[Anton Esteban]

What I like about the Helium STH example here is the increased color contrast in regards to green, blue, and cyan from red, yellow, and magenta. I think having better color contrast, in my opinion, always gives a more well balanced pleasing image.

 

[Phil Holland]

What I like about the Helium STH example here is the increased color contrast in regards to green, blue, and cyan from red, yellow, and magenta. I think having better color contrast, in my opinion, always gives a more well balanced pleasing image.

Just remember that's at a different T-Stop on the lens, so some of that you may be seeing is from that

However, on the ISO Analysis nothing is changing except for the light.

 

[Peter Lyons Collister ASC]

The most important thing for me as a DP is highlight rolloff and skin tones.
To my old eyes I feel that the Dragon 8K VV looked more pleasing in the skin tone test than the Helium.
What thinks you fine people?

 

[Phil Holland]

The most important thing for me as a DP is highlight rolloff and skin tones.
To my old eyes I feel that the Dragon 8K VV looked more pleasing in the skin tone test than the Helium.
What thinks you fine people?

If I create a test where both look exactly the same what would you think

 

[Peter Lyons Collister ASC]

If you did that Phil then I guess I have to give Jarred some money to upgrade my camera to Helium!

 

[Phil Holland]

If you did that Phil then I guess I have to give Jarred some money to upgrade my camera to Helium!

Well the short story on that is indeed what my test here reveals. More or less if you are attempting to match the Highlight Roll-Off 1:1 for Dragon and Helium, you will want to rate your ISO one stop higher "approximately". Though, if you expose for the shot and it's within your rated ISO anyways that's a bit of a wash.

As for the color, I'd say they are slightly different within 5-10% at most, so not a huge process to match. There is indeed a greenish tint to the shadows on Helium, but it is something that can be graded out mostly. I imagine Graeme is still working away on that aspect of the color for now. Helium is still new-ish and Dragon is rather mature, so I'm certain there's more to come.

IPP2 and REDWideGamutRGB/Log3G10 is revealing itself to be wonderful the more I'm digging into it's soup btw. I need to send you some snaps of all the Kodak emulations I've made. I've been having so much fun emulating various negs and print processes from scans to see what exactly can be done. These can then be used on camera, on set, and in post. It's how I managed my last tiny shoot and it's lovely. Graeme hinted in the interview about the newer de-mosaicing algorithm and my 8K footage from the sky is pretty much the highest quality stuff most of have seen even before that. Working on a short reel I'll send your way to watch with the family and friends

 

[Peter Lyons Collister ASC]

Very helpful Phil....

I need to do some tests..... If only I was a better colorist.....or even a passable colorist

Whenever you have time let's talk.... I will buy lunch

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

Color accuracy is any interesting discussion. This is one of the topics Michael and I discussed in the doc. Light Iron color science is not about accurate color (WYSIWYG), it is more about cinematic colors and look.

This is an interesting issue for a camera maker. Should the color you capture be 100% accurate or should it be pleasing. ie having a look applied to it to make it more pleasing. This could be more saturated or colorful, for example.

Just something to think about. Different industries have different needs. I am fascinated by this.

Accuracy & aesthetics

It can be a harmonious marriage of both.

 

[rand thompson]

Phil,

Thanks again for all of the knowledge you continually bestow. Will there be an updated "Red DSMC 2 Field Ops Guide" for the 8K Heliums? Oh, I see you are again on the first inside page of the February edition of American Cinematographer.

 

[Bill Totolo]

Many thanks from those of us who can't perform these tests.
QQ, and apologies if you've already covered this, can you tell us exactly what is lighting the female talent in the skin tone test?

Thanks again,

 

[Phil Holland]

Phil,

Thanks again for all of the knowledge you continually bestow. Will there be an updated "Red DSMC 2 Field Ops Guide" for the 8K Heliums? Oh, I see you are again on the first inside page of the February edition of American Cinematographer.

Cheers Rand. Yep. There is a new guide coming, but there are a few things coming I feel really shouldn't be left out that are incoming. Namely IPP2 and how it's implemented in camera and in post.

Many thanks from those of us who can't perform these tests.
QQ, and apologies if you've already covered this, can you tell us exactly what is lighting the female talent in the skin tone test?

Thanks again,

Anytime Bill. She's lit by diffused Litepanel Astra units. Daylight full power.

 

[Derrick Cohan]

Thank you, Phil! And apologies if this has been answered previously...Where can I find the Rec. 709 transform LUT? And How and in what software did you apply it?

 

[Dan Kanes]

Phil - how are your results on helium at 2K 240fps and 300 fps?

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showth...r-Streak-aberration-at-2KHD-(High-Frame-Rate)

 

[Phil Holland]

Thank you, Phil! And apologies if this has been answered previously...Where can I find the Rec. 709 transform LUT? And How and in what software did you apply it?

This: http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?152802-REDWideGamutRGB-and-Log3G10/page5&p=1697457#post1697457

Phil - how are your results on helium at 2K 240fps and 300 fps?

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showth...r-Streak-aberration-at-2KHD-(High-Frame-Rate)

Hmmm. That's news to me and I'll have to take a look at it. Honestly though, none of my RED cameras for years now have gone below 4K, like not since Scarlet-X MX.

 

[Dan Kanes]

Hmmm. That's news to me and I'll have to take a look at it. Honestly though, none of my RED cameras for years now have gone below 4K, like not since Scarlet-X MX.

What do you do when you need more than 120fps ?

It's not like I shoot whole jobs at 2K, heck, I try not to even go down to flat 4k acquisition with Red cameras if I can help it, but having the option to window in for the odd high speed elements shoot rather than renting a phantom flex 4K for two or three shots makes a lot of sense to me.

If red offered me a legit high speed camera option instead of vistavision , I'd totally get on board that train. But in perfect world we have the balanced option of both large imager / large format, and small imager high speed , which I got very used to having available and happy to reach for since my first Epic MX.

 

[Joachim Hoge]

Your contribution is amazing as always Phil. Thanks a lot for sharing this.
Can't wait to get my Epic-W.

 

[Alex Boothby]

The lens is stopped down to make up the exposure differences between ISO 400, 800, and 1600. Which is significant.

Sorry if this has been answered, but were the T-stops the same on each camera for the ISO ANALYSIS side-by-side? And were the lenses clean? I've seen some tests where the lens was stopped down or NDed 1 stop on Helium to better compare the noise floor and highlight roll off.

I'm surprised by how well underexposed Dragon looks in this test, hence the question.

Also, curious what glass was used on each cam.

Huge thanks for this test Phil!