Real camera tests...

[Perry Wilson]

if someone doesnt use the GH2 using the Mysteron hack (the best image quality and DR so far) I call this test void... people have the right to know what can be done with 600$

 

[Perry Wilson]

if I was local I would love to come show that the GH2 can do, I have shot 2 features and three shorts on it, im very comfortable with lighting it, cutting it, and grading it, I hope someone in Cali. can do it justice

 

[Andy Roberts]

After reading most of this thread and the Zacuto thread, I find it so bizarre how many people have such strong advice (read: rebukes) for the founder of two world-class billion dollar companies.

When Jim says 4K is the new normal, he's not saying it just to thump Red's chest. He is himself an artist looking out for each of us who capture still and motion images. I find Red to be the most customer-centric company I have ever dealt with and yet they are accused of being selfish and childish. Hmmm. As the Boston Red Sox owner says in Moneyball, "The first one through the gate always takes it in the teeth."

Thanks Jim and Red for taking it in the teeth. History will exonerate you.

 

[Paul Schneider]

You might want to add sensitivity in low light situations (ie high ISOs) to that list.

Yep. Shoot doco style in a dark room and it won't matter how much resolution you have. A 4K black frame is exactly that.

 

[Bill Anderson]

I hope this test is attended by the most seasoned of DP's, filmmakers, and Post, so that we may hear their reasons for making the choices they do, and whether the basis for those choices has been shaken or altered in any way.

 

[Lliam Worthington]

After reading most of this thread and the Zacuto thread, I find it so bizarre how many people have such strong advice (read: rebukes) for the founder of two world-class billion dollar companies.

When Jim says 4K is the new normal, he's not saying it just to thump Red's chest. He is himself an artist looking out for each of us who capture still and motion images. I find Red to be the most customer-centric company I have ever dealt with and yet they are accused of being selfish and childish. Hmmm. As the Boston Red Sox owner says in Moneyball, "The first one through the gate always takes it in the teeth."

Thanks Jim and Red for taking it in the teeth. History will exonerate you.

Well said Andy, I feel the same way. Painfully ironic how much righteous chest thumping and condemnation there is around the internet traps when it comes to discussing RED and it's "bad attitude". Turning me right off a few other sites I frequent. I find it hilarious that people are even remotely surprised that the founder of the 4K camera movement is dogmatic about wanting 4K in a high profile camera test. LOT of people out there who like to get stuck into RED. You'd think Jim had spent the last 50 years shagging their wives and kicking their dogs. Peoples skin is just so thin and they are so righteous and precious these days it's nauseating. And ironically their behaviour is often exactly what they complain of RED and the RED user forum. You get very good at tongue biting if your a RED owner I've quickly discovered, as life is far too short to wage meaningless internet wars all over the place over a load of "sound an fury signifying nothing" or piss and wind as we Aussies like to say. Theirs films to make, love to be made ives to be lived and I'm content for history to bare out the truth also.

But, yes, worth spending a few moments to let the RED team know they are appreciated none the less - even though that just makes me a sycophantic fan boy of course.

 

[Michael Hardwick]

Uh yeah that is roughly a $5000 per camera license upgrade.

Not so awesome.

 

[M Most]

I find it hilarious that people are even remotely surprised that the founder of the 4K camera movement is dogmatic about wanting 4K in a high profile camera test.

I don't think anyone is surprised. They're just pointing out that some people are put off by that kind of total devotion to something that isn't really that critical for many of the products that are created with Red and other cameras. It's kind of like insisting that all cars be tested only at the limits of performance on race tracks, even though the vast majority of people who buy cars never race them.

Peoples skin is just so thin and they are so righteous and precious these days it's nauseating.

Honestly, the thinnest skin I've seen anywhere on the Internet is that of people on RedUser. Honestly.

But, yes, worth spending a few moments to let the RED team know they are appreciated none the less

I really don't see where constructive criticism lessens the appreciation and respect of what Jim and his team have done and continue to do in any way. Without at least some differences of opinion, nothing ever moves forward. If everyone saw everything exactly the same way, it would be a pretty boring world and there would be no such thing as innovation. I see nothing wrong with expressing an opinion, even if it's a contrary one, if the point of that expression is to move things forward in a positive way. It can be done - and in this case was done - with all respect intact.

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

After reading most of this thread and the Zacuto thread, I find it so bizarre how many people have such strong advice (read: rebukes) for the founder of two world-class billion dollar companies.

No offense to Jim but I find it bizarre that people expect the CEO of two world-class billion dollar companies to be an expert in film post production and distribution.

4k is not the new normal. Normal is not what is technically feasible it's what's common in the real world. The real world doesn't change based on what's possible the real world simply is. And the real world simply isn't in 4k yet. Consumers don't have 4k TVs yet in their homes (and probably won't for several years) and even the theater near by me which is "4k ready" is only showing 2k films. The vast majority of RED films this year are being finished in 2k. That's the real world. Next year it might be different and next year it might be normal. But it's not there yet.

 

[Zachary Marsh]

Anyone reading the details of this camera test know that it's going to be completely subjective in the results.

Still mad that people couldn't tell the difference between graded 5d/7d/RED footage after post? Even projected on a theater?

 

[Andy Roberts]

And the real world simply isn't in 4k yet.

"YET" is such a loaded word. Here I am just repeating what others have already said. But even though I haven't delivered a single project in 4K, I'm glad everything I've shot has been captured in 5K because...

- 4K will very soon be the new normal - call it the Scout's Motto "Be Prepared" or future-proofing
- Reframing
- VFX
- High resolution digital stills
- did I mention future-proofing?

And I can't wait to buy the Dragon sensor.

For a producer, the tests might be about what camera to use for one project. For someone like me who only makes purchases like an Epic once in a decade, the tests are all about what horse I can win with over the next 10 years. There is not a chance in the world I would go with anything but Red.

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

"YET" is such a loaded word. Here I am just repeating what others have already said. But even though I haven't delivered a single project in 4K, I'm glad everything I've shot has been captured in 5K because...

- 4K will very soon be the new normal - call it the Scout's Motto "Be Prepared" or future-proofing
- Reframing
- VFX
- High resolution digital stills

You're contradicting yourself and agreeing with exactly what I said before. Jim said they wouldn't participate because they aren't *exhibiting* in 4k. None of those Epic features have anything to do with a theatrical presentation in 4k. 4k is useful for everything you jus tmentioned. NONE of those things are being tested and none of them even if they were would be affected by whether or not a short film was finished in 2k or 4k.

In 5 years Epic will be outgunned by bargain basement cameras. In 10 years the 'kids' are going to be laughing at you for not just selling it and buying an iphone 8 with more dynamic range, no compression and more resolution. Shootouts aren't about what will be best in 10 years. They're about what's best today. Tomorrow you can have another shootout.

 

[Martin Stevens]

You're contradicting yourself and agreeing with exactly what I said before. Jim said they wouldn't participate because they aren't *exhibiting* in 4k. None of those Epic features have anything to do with a theatrical presentation in 4k. 4k is useful for everything you jus tmentioned. NONE of those things are being tested and none of them even if they were would be affected by whether or not a short film was finished in 2k or 4k.

In 5 years Epic will be outgunned by bargain basement cameras. In 10 years the 'kids' are going to be laughing at you for not just selling it and buying an iphone 8 with more dynamic range, no compression and more resolution. Shootouts aren't about what will be best in 10 years. They're about what's best today. Tomorrow you can have another shootout.

Yes, but will T1.4 PL mount lenses ever be affordable?

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Yes, but will T1.4 PL mount lenses ever be affordable?

10 years lenses will be mostly irrelevant.

 

[Rob Ruffo]

10 years lenses will be mostly irrelevant.

That is a ludicrous statement. Also, bargain basement cameras are not optimized for the same applications as our cameras.

I can only watch so many skateboard videos shot on iphones until I scream. Who cares what teenagers do? The video content they actually WATCH the most is shot on Epic and Alexa, and this will be true for many years to come.

 

[Philipe Ratton]

10 years lenses will be mostly irrelevant. [/QU
Well... no, that is just plain wrong.

 

[Martin Stevens]

But there was a symbol in his statement, which means it's slack cutting time.

 

[Andy Roberts]

If footage shot in 2K doesn't look good today on a 4K projection, then I would like to know that today so that tomorrow, when 4K is ubiquitous, my footage will stand the test of time and still be viable. But whatever I don't need the Zacuto tests or the Red tests. For my purposes, Red is the best.

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

10 years lenses will be mostly irrelevant.

Well... no, that is just plain wrong.

Lenses as we know them today will be meaningless in 10 years. For one cameras will be so absurdly sensitive that T1.3 will be unnecessarily large and unwieldy. By then lightfield should be production ready so focus will be mostly a thing of the past. Also since it's a lightfield the image characteristics from the aperture will be gone. Lens flare simulation the last 2 years in labs has gotten good enough that it could be done in nearly real-time with very high accuracy.

Shoot with a "neutral" lens and apply the DOF/Flare characteristics of your favorite lens. Sensor will have enough color gamut that you can reproduce any lens coating characteristic you want as well. Maybe it'll take a little longer than 10 years but 4k already allows for pretty good digital zooms. Get up to an 8k sensor and short zooms will be mostly pointless unless you need 8k resolution for some reason. In 10 years we'll have well over 16k. That would be like having a 24 - 70mm zoom. Since you are making a prime without focus or aperture most of the mechanics will be unneeded. So engineering will focus on making the sharpest fixed prime you possibly can. RED will surely by then implement built in vignette correction so there is little to no reason to spend too much time on fixing it optically. Ditto geometric distortion.

 

[Andy Roberts]

That sounds exciting... truly. Thanks for sharing the vision Gavin.