Raven vs Scarlet-W

[BrandonChristensen]

It depends on the aspect ratio. Raven has a limited vertical resolution of 2160p, which is 1.56x, but keep in mind that's a 2.13:1 aspect ratio image, which is rather wide for conventional use.

Here are the more common crops (in FF35 equiv), as noted in the Tools section of the Red website: http://www.red.com/tools/crop-factor

4K 2:1 = 1.89x
4K WS = 1.95x
4K HD = 1.96x

This means you're 14mm will behave similar to a 27mm (although the FOV remains the same).

Dropping to 3k or 2K results in further cropping of the sensor. The 2K Pro Res however is downscaled from the full sensor, so you don't have to worry about additional crop there.

Cool, hadn't seen those numbers.

1.96x at 4K HD. Yowza.

What is it at 4.5K? Same because only the horizontal changes?

 

[Luca Volpe]

Guys...maybe is s stupid question...but I am still deciding between raven and SW...anyway ..I see a lot of post about wide or to wide screen etc....but what is the usable format (16:9) to use on the Raven or SW in the different resolution?(4k HD 5K etc...) hope is clear...lol...

 

[Marcus Friedlander]

Raven can capture a 4.5k 2.39 image but only a 4k 16:9 image.

The Scarlet-W can shoot 5k at both 2.39 and 16:9 aspect ratios.

 

[Kevin D'Haeze]

4K 2:1 = 1.89x
4K WS = 1.95x
4K HD = 1.96x

This means you're 14mm will behave similar to a 27mm (although the FOV remains the same).

Dropping to 3k or 2K results in further cropping of the sensor. The 2K Pro Res however is downscaled from the full sensor, so you don't have to worry about additional crop there.

Trying to understand how this will work...

Let's say you're recording @ 2K... am I to understand that if you were running dual-record (both Redcode + ProRes at the same time), then what you would see in your LCD and what would be recorded as R3D files would be at a 1.96 crop, but the ProRes files would use the full sensor -- therefore having a very different crop than R3D?

 

[Nathan DuMoulin]

Edited to remove a whole bunch of wrong info. Thanks Phil!

 

[Kevin D'Haeze]

Hopefully Phil Holland will chime in, as I'm just going off what I've read in the forum over the past few months, but as far as I understand the Pro Res is an encoded stream from the R3D output. So the quality of the ProRes will change depending on what Redcode ratio you choose.

Since the ProRes is from the R3D output stream, I'm guessing it would also be derived from 2K.

As far as crop goes, 2K is 3.74x.

Thoughts Phil?

I'd love for Phil or other to fill me in on how this works. In the meantime, I'm imagining that 3.74 crop factor and what it will be like to film with my 200mm lens - which could become a "pseudo 748mm" lens. j/k

 

[Phil Holland]

Hopefully Phil Holland will chime in, as I'm just going off what I've read in the forum over the past few months, but as far as I understand the Pro Res is an encoded stream from the R3D output. So the quality of the ProRes will change depending on what Redcode ratio you choose.

Since the ProRes is from the R3D output stream, I'm guessing it would also be derived from 2K.

As far as crop goes, 2K is 3.74x.

Thoughts Phil?

I'd love for Phil or other to fill me in on how this works. In the meantime, I'm imagining that 3.74 crop factor and what it will be like to film with my 200mm lens - which could become a "pseudo 748mm" lens. j/k

Thoughts and even info no less!

ProRes IS NOT recorded from the REDCODE RAW .R3D stream. It's a separate pipe all together as they are both encoding in realtime. On Weapon you lose one tick of REDCODE RAW Compression Ratio typically when shooting at the maximum ProRes quality, in the case of Weapon it's typically the difference between 3:1 and 4:1, if you are shooting 5:1 it doesn't matter. I haven't gotten dirty with Raven or Scarlet-W yet, so I don't have much information there.

If we are talking 2K FF on DSMC[SUP]2[/SUP] bodies, cinematographers typically calculate crop factor based off of HFOV (Horizontal Field of View) due to the wonko-ness that happens when calculating based off the diagonal of a given format/aspect ratio. When thinking about DSLR for instance, those are typically 3:2 aspect ratio.

Considering that, if you are talking FF35 the 2K FF crop factor is 3.52x, if using S35 as your relative starting point it's 2.43x.

If we are talking 4K FF, FF35 is 1.76x and S35 relative is 1.22x.

5K FF "is" essentially S35 in width at 0.97x, FF35 relevance is 1.41x.

 

[Nathan DuMoulin]

ProRes IS NOT recorded from the REDCODE RAW .R3D stream. It's a separate pipe all together as they are both encoding in realtime.

Thanks for the clarification Phil! For once I'm happy to be wrong, as this is good news!

 

[Kevin D'Haeze]

Thoughts and even info no less!

ProRes IS NOT recorded from the REDCODE RAW .R3D stream. It's a separate pipe all together as they are both encoding in realtime.

Super helpful thoughts and info, Phil. Thanks for jumping in. It's pretty amazing that Reds can record both formats at once, and still maintain such high frame rates and functionality. I hadn't heard of the compression "tick" at max ProRes settings, so that is good to know.

I still am unclear on one thing... when dual encoding (R3D + ProRes) at a resolution lower than max capabilities (i.e., recording 2K on a 4.5K Raven), does the ProRes exactly match up visually with the R3D? Or does the R3D have one crop factor, and the ProRes another (since ProRes apparently utilizes the full sensor, while R3D has a crop)? Does that make sense?

 

[Phil Holland]

Super helpful thoughts and info, Phil. Thanks for jumping in. It's pretty amazing that Reds can record both formats at once, and still maintain such high frame rates and functionality. I hadn't heard of the compression "tick" at max ProRes settings, so that is good to know.

I still am unclear on one thing... when dual encoding (R3D + ProRes) at a resolution lower than max capabilities (i.e., recording 2K on a 4.5K Raven), does the ProRes exactly match up visually with the R3D? Or does the R3D have one crop factor, and the ProRes another (since ProRes apparently utilizes the full sensor, while R3D has a crop)? Does that make sense?

So the difference there is the 2K ProRes file will be be scaled down from the 4.5K image. You are getting exactly how much you are seeing at 4.5K REDCODE RAW, just in a 2K ProRes Quicktime.

 

[Kevin D'Haeze]

So the difference there is the 2K ProRes file will be be scaled down from the 4.5K image. You are getting exactly how much you are seeing at 4.5K REDCODE RAW, just in a 2K ProRes Quicktime.

Sorry to be a pain in the butt with my clarification, and not trying to beat this to death. But if I am interpreting this correctly, you're saying that the ProRes would ALWAYS contain a scaled down 4.5K image? It would never replicate the same cropped image that you would see when shooting 4K, 3K, 2K (or any other resolution that is below the maximum capabilities of the camera)?

 

[Phil Holland]

Sorry to be a pain in the butt with my clarification, and not trying to beat this to death. But if I am interpreting this correctly, you're saying that the ProRes would ALWAYS contain a scaled down 4.5K image? It would never replicate the same cropped image that you would see when shooting 4K, 3K, 2K (or any other resolution that is below the maximum capabilities of the camera)?

You set your format, let's say 4K HD, your REDCODE RAW .R3D will be 3840x2160. Your 2K ProRes in this case would be scaled down from that 4K HD format into a 1920x1080 ProRes file.

If you shot 4K FF, your .R3D would be 4096x2160 and your 2K ProRes would be 2048x1080.

No matter if you shoot 4K, 3K, 2K your 2K ProRes is either scaled down or a direct to resolution encoded image. Where it is one to one is 2K for 2K.

 

[Kevin D'Haeze]

You nailed that one down nicely, Phil. Thanks for the extended clarification. I think you covered all the bases. Cheers!

 

[Luca Volpe]

...lol...I think I need a quick course for al this info...I am a little confused....

 

[Luca Volpe]

I still can't decide between the two....lol...

 

[Ugo Del]

I still can't decide between the two....lol...

The scarlet-w can do what the epic can do @4.5KFF concerning slowmo.
Most movies are shot @5k 5:1, the scarlet can do that and even 4:1.
You want to shoot anamorphic, the scarlet can do, not the raven.
You want to change the mount or the OLPF, the scarlet can do that, not the raven.
You need S35, the scarlet does that, not the raven.
You can make a look in Resolve and import it in the camera on the scarlet, or any LUT you find.
You're thinking about upgrading using Red programs, the scarlet can.
You don't need all that and you want the craziest + cheapest camera around, buy the raven. It's a bit lighter than the scarlet too.

 

[Matthew Quinn]

^^ this

 

[Randy Panado]

Got to hold both the Raven and Scarlet-W last night during the Red Recon meetup, hard pressed to tell the difference in weight. So glad I made the jump to Scarlet-W, more room to grow!

 

[Andy_Johnson]

Got to hold both the Raven and Scarlet-W last night during the Red Recon meetup, hard pressed to tell the difference in weight. So glad I made the jump to Scarlet-W, more room to grow!

As a Raven pre-orderer, thank you
But seriously, that's awesome. Can't wait for the release of both of them.

 

[Bob Gundu]

Got to hold both the Raven and Scarlet-W last night during the Red Recon meetup, hard pressed to tell the difference in weight. So glad I made the jump to Scarlet-W, more room to grow!

The weight of both of those cameras are the same at 3.5 lbs.