Rants

[Zachary Marsh]

As a One owner, this is only good news.

As a Scarlet fixed waiter...

Well, I have a One, while waiting...

As pointed out in the Rants2 thread, this is punkish to say. But thanks for us who don't have a R1 and are waiting...

 

[Michael Kontaxis]

Can't help feel disappointed. I've been interested in buying the Scarlet and I learned nothing from this announcement about that product. Though it very much seemed like we would

At some point I think someone Red has to commit what the Scarlet is. It can't do everything. And so be it. No one is going to say no to new features but you do the best you can, offer what you can and stick by it. I don't want a 2015 camera announced in 2010 to be delivered in 2015. I want the best 2010 camera.

It also feels like people who didn't get the Red will be punished for it. This feels like a sorority. I am waiting for some kind of initiation. Is it really so hard for a new user to get a new product without being told how much they lack in commitment because they weren't there in the very first stages?

I couldn't agree more. Its important to note that its not like I didn't want a RED One... I couldn't ever afford it!

I'm starting to realize that while I love RED's energy and customer service, there's something nice about a product being kept a secret until everything is ready to go, or until they know the exact month the product will be ready. While I know RED is simply trying to keep all of us up to date with what they're doing, my enthusiasm is starting to get crushed at each announcement. Remember, this was a product that was initially supposed to ship in spring of this year, but was re-imagined. Don't get me wrong, I love the new vision for the camera, but the potential price is worrying me. Whispers of "mild" price increases, and general forum chatter about the fixed lens camera reaching up to 5000, 6000 dollars is scaring me. RED's initial product vision is starting to look nice if that's what the price is gonna be.

3K for under 3 Grand (via Gizmodo)
It shoots in heady 3k resolution with Red's new 2/3-inch Mysterium X sensor, shooting from 1-120fps (180fps burst) and up to 100MB/sec REDCODE RAW HD, recording to dual Compact Flash cards. It's got Wi-Fi control (sweet), and all the necessary ports: HDMI, HD-SDI, Firewire 800 and USB2. The 4.8-inch LCD should be more than adequate on this compact HD shooter. Besides coming with an 8X T2.8 Red zoom lens, it's compatible with most Red One accessories. Price? We're hearing under $3000, set for early '09, no pre-orders.

 

[H. Paul Moon]

Right, so anyway, in all seriousness, now that Red will be making some extra money and will also see a big cash flow from pre-orders, Red should think about recruiting top talent from top-tier engineering schools or even overseas.

By the way, a reminder of the announcement in December 2008 about how the fixed 2/3" Scarlet kit was going to cost $3,750. We have been told today that there will be a very minor increase. Just marking that for reference when November 30 arrives.

http://www.engadget.com/2008/12/03/reds-big-change-announcement-is-big-for-pros-disappointing-f/

$3,750 + "minor price increase" = $4,000.

(I note that the inflation rate has been negative for almost all of this year, and Red as a corporation are not exempt from basic principles of supply and demand. At the same time, based on how much attention the principals appear to give the unanimous raves at RedUser.com, perhaps they are gauging a huge margin of safety for Scarlet price increases -- and could be in for a scathing surprise as the industry "catches up" with them. Which is ironic because Red have no physical product to catch up with!)

 

[Gunleik Groven]

As pointed out in the Rants2 thread, this is punkish to say. But thanks for us who don't have a R1 and are waiting...

But you could buy a One, too - while waiting.

Really.

If you need it, buy it. If not... I don't really see what the problem is...

Sorry for continuing punkism...

 

[Pietro Impagliazzo]

All pricing speculation came from the announcements listed prices.

I'm glad a Scarlet 2/3" system will be cheaper than what we get considering the released prices.

 

[Antony M]

Let's see now.....$4500 / 1.65 = £2730 (Rounded) + 12.5% import duty = £3070 (Again rounded) + 17.5% VAT assuming Darling Alasdair (Hawk-spit-ding) doesn't put it up to 20% gives us £3600 (Rounded down).

Dave, the import duty is 0%. it is rated as a digital camera, not a camcorder.

And if you set yourself up as a film-making business and register for VAT, then you can claim the VAT back!

Nice saving.

 

[András Puiz]

Have you 3k for 3k guys really thought about how deep this rabbit hole gets? Do you know how much processing power it takes to play back the footage at 24fps?

These are obviously valid points, and a camera costing a few thousand bucks extra will be the least of your concerns if you want to shoot a feature-length drama. I'm thinking more about shorts, or school projects, or hobby projects where the camera may easily end up being the single most expensive item.

Processing power and storage are getting more and more affordable as we speak.

And also: 1080p HD would be more than enough for these uses; cropped, downsampled, whatever way.

 

[David Swan]

Dave, the import duty is 0%. it is rated as a digital camera, not a camcorder.

And if you set yourself up as a film-making business and register for VAT, then you can claim the VAT back!

Nice saving.

Ah!
Point one, is it a digital camera, not a camcorder? If it is indeed the former then that's a few quid saved. Good-oh!
Point two, I hadn't thought of that, but do know VAT can be a bit of a minefield, and don't want to be cought by HM Customs and Excise, they're worse than the cops.
Dave

 

[Zakaree Sandberg]

most of these complainers arent even RED customers right now.. they expect RED owes them something.. I find it baffling.. I havent even gone to scarletuser yet.. that must be a nightmare

 

[David Rasberry]

Actually we hardcore Scarletusers (soon to be) are pretty positive about the news in general. Some of us don't have unrealistic expectations about either prices or delivery. Red is making good progress as far as I can tell and the 2/3" just keeps getting better.

 

[Jay Voutour]

most of these complainers arent even RED customers right now.. they expect RED owes them something.. I find it baffling.. I havent even gone to scarletuser yet.. that must be a nightmare

I'm not a RED owner, but even I think some of the FUD concerning things *WE DON'T EVEN KNOW ABOUT* is way over the top. Don't get me wrong, I understand those who feel frustrated about having to wait another month for the Scarlet program details (especially prices), but I also remember that the whole DSMC concept, was just that, a CONCEPT, less than 14 mos ago. For a smaller company like RED to have Epic-X ready for field testing in the next 60 days or so is f-ing incredible. Also, the amount of "bonuses" that current R1 owners are eligible for... leaves me speechless (in a good, little bit jealous, way).

FWIW, and IMHO, most the ScarletUser members have remained pretty calm with regards to the OCT/30 announcement, in comparison to some of the posts here (see RANTS thread). It makes sense, though, since the announcement was mainly about the Epic-X. I expect SU to get a helluva lot more "excited" around the end of the month.
________
Yamaha Td2 Specifications

 

[Martin Weiss]

Gentlemen, keep the discussion civilized.

Thank you.

 

[H. Paul Moon]

Gentlemen, keep the discussion civilized.

Thank you.

Once again, comments censored.

 

[Jarred Land]

goodbye paul moon...

 

[jimhare]

What everyone seems to be forgetting here is that the game has changed.

When the concept of Scarlet was first discussed, along with potential features and pricing, we weren't flooded with 5Ds, 7Ds and D90s. :furious3:

Red had to go back to the drawing board and make sure the Scarlet was a clear step ahead in every respect, as well as function as a still camera at the same time.

So to expect the following doesn't quite add up:

1. That it will come out immediately
2. That it will cost the same even though it does twice as much
3. That everyone who ever logged into Red User should get a huge discount and be first in line. Sorry, that one was more for the Epic lurkers...

I waited 12 months from the time I ordered my Red. I didn't complain once.

I choose to put my full faith in Red, and am willing to go on the ride with them wherever it takes me. :willy_nilly:

If things change (which they will, have, and are heavily advertised) then it's for a good reason and we can't second guess it.

Do you have the right to be disappointed? Of course.

But these posts seem to be turning into a witch-hunt or public protest -
"What do we want? 3K! How much do we want it for? 3K!" :emote_hanged:

If you want to buy a Canon or Nikon, do it.

As for me, I'll be very interested to see what they announce at the end of the month.

 

[Andrew clemson]

First off, I dont mean to sound like a fanboy. I don't own a R1. I haven't worked in this business as long as a lot of people on here, only a few years. I Have Zero FILM camera experience outside of Uni, and have only worked professionally on tape and digital formats. I don't know if this leaves me biased to one side of an argument or not, but hey.

Having said that, I have spent the last 18 months shooting RED and it has become the norm for probably 90% of our jobs. Previously we shot on our in house Varicams and DV format cameras. For us, what Red produced is an amazing piece of kit that has helped us produce work of a higher quality and move to another level of production that was relatively inaccessible to us before. I realise there may have been great tools available already from ARRI or Panavision, but they just didnt fit into our setup. (in terms of price or workflow)

If RED didnt fit into our setup, we wouldn't have gone for it either.

There are a lot of complaints bouncing around about the Scarlet system not being 3 grand anymore and it being 2nd fiddle to the EPICs. I might get my head bitten off for saying this, but I think the Epic is the more important of the two. The Epic is the camera that will be used for most "money" work. It is the camera most of the RED community who are making their living from the R1 will want in order to stay on top of the Tech wave, and continue to make their living. At least more so than the scarlet.

Personally, both the R1 and the Epic are out of my price range. I would have been first in line to buy a 3K for 3K camera. I will also be first in line to buy the new system, when it becomes available (whenever that is). I take great comfort in knowing that what I will be buying into is a system that enables me to upgrade when I need (and can afford ) to.

Having dealt with RED since we first took delivery of a R1, I also know I will be buying into a product that is not only supported by great technical support from Red themselves, but also from a fantastic and highly knowledegable end-user community. I have used other cameras, both stills and video manufacturers and have never once been given the attention we have gotten from Reds service team. This is something I am personally happy to pay a little extra for.

I totally understand the frustration of not knowing. It sucks. If you need to shoot something tomorrow, then you will need to either buy a R1, or another camera. Just because it will (hopefully) be a great camera doesn't mean its for everyone.

I hope that made some sense, and I hope I havent offended anyone.

 

[András Puiz]

Problem is, people like simple messages, and once a message is somewhat mixed or complicated, people will find a way to simplify it.

My message here is mixed and complicated in that I love RED, yet there are things I'm not happy about.

I know people like to put other people in easy categories such as whiners or fans, and treat them accordingly, but I'd prefer to be considered just a person with various needs, opinions and comments, some positive, some negative.

I'm a fan of RED. I'm really happy for what they are doing in the high end. They are single-handedly changing the industry. I find it fascinating that we have Jim and Jarred and others actually conducting a dialog with the users, prospective users and fans.

I'm hugely impressed by the RED reels, as well as the stills I see occasionally crop up. I think that the modular concept, rendering obsolescence obsolete, is one of the most ethical and commendable concepts I've seen in a long while from any company, regardless of the industry.

In short: I'm a fan. I think the world is a better place with RED around, and I wish them the best.

About Scarlet: I understand that the modular design has to have a higher price than the original 3K for 3K concept. I'm sure that the extra dollars will buy you tremendous extra features.

Yet I have two complaints. One: the camera has gotten priced out of my range in the process. I think this might also be a lot of other people's price range; and catering to that segment might have been, or actually still might be a good idea for RED. I'm not trying to get RED to sell a $4000 camera for $3000. I'm not asking them to do something that would only benefit me. I'm not asking them to abandon the current Scarlet project and go back in time and build the "3K for 3K" version originally announced, with no modularity.

I'm simply saying, it would be nice to have a version of Scarlet that would include whatever functionality $3K could buy. A lower-res sensor? Some awesome (and expensive) features cut? A less impressive lens? You tell me.

But I think I've said it several times, even for a rants section. I'll stop.

Complaint number two: vaporware. Yes, RED has a vaporware problem. It has been discussed ad nauseam, and it's a side effect of the unusual openness that's so characteristic of RED. Other companies also float ideas internally and abandon them, but it's different when the public knows. Apple has, for example, floated around several ideas, like PDAs back in the nineties, or tablet computers more recently. These were all leaked subsequently, not announced officially. These were things a lot of people would have wanted, and had Apple announced and canceled them, the outrage would have been tremendous. Even Apple's stock price would have suffered.

Jim keeps telling us that RED is changing, that it's adopting its communications policies. I think it's only natural that the process is evolving.

But still: this "3K for 3K" tagline will be around to haunt RED for a while. It has been said (OK, Jarred, not "promised"), and it's harder to come terms with the idea that it ain't going to happen when at one time it was going to happen.

Oh and by the way, I really don't see why it's that relevant that I'm not a customer yet. Someone will always bring up this specific point. RED rewards early adopters, and it's very nice of them. But sometimes I get the impression that RED fans, and maybe even people at RED think that anyone else should be somehow punished.

I mean, I know that RED is unlike any other company, but... Getting new customers is kind of part of the game, isn't it?

 

[Andrew clemson]

Oh and by the way, I really don't see why it's that relevant that I'm not a customer yet. Someone will always bring up this specific point. RED rewards early adopters, and it's very nice of them. But sometimes I get the impression that RED fans, and maybe even people at RED think that anyone else should be somehow punished.

I mean, I know that RED is unlike any other company, but... Getting new customers is kind of part of the game, isn't it?

The fact you don't own a camera shouldn't mean anything. At least not in terms of your opinions mattering. They should matter as much as the next guy. Im sure for every camera owner there are 2 or 3 guys who dont own, but still work with the camera every day. (and I've met plenty of camera owners who know almost nothing about using the camera)

I think there's a difference between early adopters being rewarded and those who didn't buy a camera being punished. I don't think anyone is being punished, merely that some people (people that have already invested thousands of dollars into RED) are getting more benefits than others. (those, like me, that have yet commit)

 

[Stephen Strangways]

Something that doesn't exist? It's posted on the website, a price was announced and removed. This is called trust.

Also posted on the website, at the bottom of every page:
"Specifications, prices and delivery dates are subject to change. Count on it."

 

[A. Clint Litton]

Complaint number two: vaporware. Yes, RED has a vaporware problem. It has been discussed ad nauseam, and it's a side effect of the unusual openness that's so characteristic of RED. Other companies also float ideas internally and abandon them, but it's different when the public knows. Apple has, for example, floated around several ideas, like PDAs back in the nineties, or tablet computers more recently. These were all leaked subsequently, not announced officially. These were things a lot of people would have wanted, and had Apple announced and canceled them, the outrage would have been tremendous. Even Apple's stock price would have suffered.

He has brought up an interesting point:

When can we invest in Red Digital Cinema stock? I'm looking to round out my portfolio with a company I believe in.

On second thought, it may become counterproductive for you, the fearless leaders (not to mention us, the end-users), to have to cater to the interests of shareholders, so just keep doing what you're doing and I know we'll be well-off with the results. Can't wait to own two Red cameras. Thank you for the opportunity.

If you do decide to go public, however, please don't keep it between you and the A-listers. In the meantime, I'll be perfectly happy to own a piece of history in the form of a camera...no complaints here.

(Andras...sorry to take your post and get tangential with it...no disrespect intended.)