Rants

[András Puiz]

I thought Scarlet was supposed to address a new market. Private individuals, people who don't expect to make money by shooting weddings and corporate and other boring stuff. People who would simply love to make films, as a hobby, or as an experiment, with an outstanding tool. Prospective indie filmmakers.

I thought a $3K Scarlet would have been very smart. It would have convinced people with $2000 budgets to save up a bit more, and get this vastly better tool.

Then I thought that a $4K Scarlet would have been slightly worse. With the current state of the economy, it would have been a lot worse.

And now I think the "slightly even more expensive" Scarlet will accomplish one thing: cannibalize Epic sales.

It makes sense to delay it. Hell, it would even make sense to cancel it.

I guess it will be up to some other company to clear up that sweet spot in the market.

Too bad, I really like RED, and now it looks like that the entry point for RED ownership will always elude me. Requiem for a dream.

 

[András Puiz]

In other words, RED has just announced it no longer plans to enter the consumer market.

 

[Meryem Ersoz]

In other words, RED has just announced it no longer plans to enter the consumer market.

prosumer, yes and indie film, yes...but soccer moms around the world are gnashing their teeth and clipping coupons to save up for their 7Ds.

 

[Liam Hall]

Am I the only person who thought the announcement surpassed expectations? New products and new specs with a honest road map for how the products will be developed and rolled out. There are lots of cameras on the market that people can choose from; the Scarlet/Epic delays aren't stopping anyone from making headway in the industry. Indeed, there has never been a better time to start out in this industry and there has never been a better time to be a student either.

All this moaning about Scarlet is a bit like a writer who always thinks he has a better story to tell than the one he is about to write, so he puts off writing that story and ends up with nothing.

 

[András Puiz]

Am I the only person who thought the announcement surpassed expectations? New products and new specs with a honest road map for how the products will be developed and rolled out. There are lots of cameras on the market that people can choose from; the Scarlet/Epic delays aren't stopping anyone from making headway in the industry. Indeed, there has never been a better time to start out in this industry and there has never been a better time to be a student either.

All this moaning about Scarlet is a bit like a writer who always thinks he has a better story to tell than the one he is about to write, so he puts off writing that story and ends up with nothing.

This is the complaint department, so kindly leave.

RED delivers lots of great stuff to lots of people, and we all love them for that. On the other hand, RED made a promise that it failed to deliver on. Yes, there are a million excuses for that, as well as a lot of wise-ass perspective a bunch of people will want to lecture me on, but I'd rather skip that here, thanks.

RED promised a product that I wanted and could afford. Then RED gradually went back on that promise. No biggie. I will survive. RED will survive. Everyone else who wanted a $3K RED camera will survive, I'm sure.

Still: I'm not happy about this. And please don't attempt to tell me that I'm somehow wrong for that. Mkay?

 

[Liam Hall]

This is the complaint department, so kindly leave.

Is there censorship in here or are you trying to be funny?

 

[Jarred Land]

In other words, RED has just announced it no longer plans to enter the consumer market.

We never targeted the consumer market nor ever announced intentions to target the consumer market. Scarlet, all the way down the the removable 2/3", are professional tools. We don't care who uses them, but they are built and designed for professionals.

And please please please... if there is one thing that does piss me off, is when people keep saying "RED PROMISED THIS, RED PROMISED THAT," . We never promised anything. Every single one of Jim's posts tell you to expect things to change.

We know things change and we tell everyone that things will change. it is pretty simple. If you dont like it, there are tons of other camera companies out there.

 

[Gary Stone]

Technically "3K for under 3K" COULD still be true. It just might be for the 2/3" brain only. I'm not disappointed in these announcements. I'm encouraged that I won't be a beta tester. RED is sticking to it's word.

 

[Anson Fogel]

The dissapointment on the part of those that bought the hype is understandable, and at the same time, RED's decision to be clear about WHO they are, is encouraging. RED has never been a consumer camera company, and now it is clear to the larger market that which us RED owners already knew - they are a small, innovative group focused on creating state of the art imaging tools for professionals, and doing so at a price point that is a key part of the disruptive innovation.

I talk to an athlete (I shoot a lot of action sports) everyday who says "I'm getting one of those Scarlets when it comes out" - to which I respond, it probably not happening soon, and when it is, its a pro tool that is likely a bit more than you want or need. Buy a 7D, learn to shoot and edit, and maybe if you find yourself more of a filmmaker than an athlete, invest more heavily in red.

As an aside, most people expecting Scarlet did not no a lot of homework - anything more than a superficial review of RedUser and the state of things would reveal the facts - Scarlet became myth, expectations set by rumor and hearsay, not so much by RED. RED clearly made an error in their original announcements - no question. Jim knows that, has acknowledged it.

RED's clarification of their focus on the pro market - at still disruptive prices even for EPIC and R1 - inevitably was going to result in myth busting, disappointment, etc - but is overwhelming the correct business move. So, for people like me that earn at least some portion of our living with a camera - are frankly ecstatic that red has made it clear that they are focused on us, and not soccer mom's. Some of us were worried about the spreading thin of their resources and an identity crisis. A small innovative team cannot be all things to all people.

 

[Zakaree Sandberg]

Probably because about two years ago, Red said they were making a 3K camera for under $3K, so a lot of people started following along, actually believing that something like that was coming for some reason.

yeah... and?
anyone waiting for a piece of gear is foolish.
If you need something to shoot your projects.. buy what is currently available.

Im hearing about alot of people who are stringing everything on scarlet alone..

 

[András Puiz]

Is there censorship in here or are you trying to be funny?

I don't want to rain on the parade of all those cheering on RED. Therefore I come here with my complaints. This is the right place for them. Don't try to stop me here. That's all.

 

[Jesper Sichlau]

I just want to know what things like a (Bottom Rig) Base Plate, a Top moun and a 1.8" SSD module is. And what the difference between a Base and Pro I/O module is, and finnally at what price range extra batteries (and a charger) is going to be.

 

[MichaelHalsell]

The real disappointment would have been if the Scarlet products had been dropped. Not the case at all, if anything the camera is being upgraded from the original specs. We all know there is no free lunch, especially when it comes to cameras. So the better decision is to get on the Scarlet train, it's about to leave the station also.

 

[Jon B.]

yeah... and?
anyone waiting for a piece of gear is foolish.
If you need something to shoot your projects.. buy what is currently available.

Im hearing about alot of people who are stringing everything on scarlet alone..

yes, also, Red is a company that moves at it's own pace. I don't believe they are trying to jump on the consumer with products that may be subpar in their eyes; unleashing them before ready.

I think we should adapt to the technology as it progresses, not that technology should adapt to what we want and when we want it. This is why there are so many outdated pieces of garbage built within the last few years. It's a good time for the world to be able to use what they have for a while and continue updating that one thing until it's truly necessary to move to the next product...

Quality takes time.

 

[mikeburton]

I can understand the frustration. When I was set to receive my RED One that got delayed 5 months past the original target I was upset. But, the second the camera got in my hands I forgot all about it. You all will too. RED is a company that was built not only through one man's vision and a teams creation of a great image capture system but also by the early followers that went out and spread the word, troubleshot the issues and made the camera a success. Those people will be constantly rewarded as they should be cause they are a big part of RED's success. Without them all there would be is a failed rebel camera company that attempted to go against the grain. He, couldn't help it!

Obviously, the cameras aren't completely worked out yet and therefore cannot make it to your front door. But when they do they will be worth the wait and you too will become part of the fraternity giving the same speach to other newcomers impatient waiting for the next amazing RED product line.

 

[András Puiz]

We never targeted the consumer market nor ever announced intentions to target the consumer market. Scarlet, all the way down the the removable 2/3", are professional tools. We don't care who uses them, but they are built and designed for professionals.

Caring about who your users are is called a business model. I'm sure you have that.

When I said "consumers," I meant people who don't make a living with their cameras, people who cannot expense them. No soccer moms, but aspiring filmmakers.

And please please please... if there is one thing that does piss me off, is when people keep saying "RED PROMISED THIS, RED PROMISED THAT," . We never promised anything. Every single one of Jim's posts tell you to expect things to change.

We know things change and we tell everyone that things will change. it is pretty simple. If you dont like it, there are tons of other camera companies out there.

To get pissed off is the wrong reaction. If your audience feels let down because you announced something and later priced it way outside its original range, then you obviously did something wrong. Sorry to be blunt about it, but it's simply the only way I can see it. Obviously we read the disclaimer that everything is subject to change, but then it's only human nature to be upset when good news gets canceled*.

We can get hung up on words such as "promises," and agree on calling them, say, "forward-looking statements," but that's beside the point.

My point is simple: some people are unhappy because the $3K camera never materialized. Tons of other people are happy because tons of other stuff is about to materialize in a big way, and RED is a great company.

And why do I keep repeating this like a broken record? Because RED has listened before, and maybe one day you will listen to this too. Maybe one day you'll ship a bare-bones prosumer camera at a lower price point.

And I just also happen to think that it may be a very lucrative category if done right.

That's all I wanted to say. It just so happens that my segment got canceled*, which somewhat curbs my otherwise very real excitement for the high-end stuff that I will be unlikely to use in the foreseeable future.

*I may get some heat for saying "canceled" when the Scarlet is in fact very much still on. But from what I believe to be a very valid point of view, a "$3,000 RED camera that's usable out of the box" can pretty much be considered canceled at this point.

 

[Cid J Salcido Uyarra]

It's obvious that a camera that does 3K for 3K is out of reach for about a year or two. I mean 3-4 years ago we could barley edit SD flawlessly and then 2007 came along with HD and reset the cycle. HD is just now is getting comfortable and affordable. This whole over 2K resolution is a joke. I mean more pixels is always cool but you’re going to need more computer power along with more storage.

After watching Crank 2 I'm convinced that 1080P is where it’s at. What’s wrong with a 1080p or 2K Scarlet? Do we need more pixels? I mean lets be honest. If Scarlet went 2K and HD why not just get rid of the pesky 2/3’’ and have a whole line of 35mm cameras. "It's not about resolution but revolution" Quote from the Directors from Crank 2

It's also apparent that RED is shying away from the pro-sumer market at least for now or putting it on hold. Most the guys who work there have probably had the money their whole life to buy the good expensive shit and don't know how to make each buck stretch. I’ve never come from money but I’ve been able to put 4K together to get a Mark II in February. I was hoping to get a Scarlet S35 and it looks like I’m with a crew that got left out. I’m only 22 so it’s all in the good, I’m sure when I’m 30 I can afford a TATTOO kit but for now I can’t. And I’m willing to bet that there’s more 20 year olds than 30 year olds.

I don’t know, I think what really grinds my gears is it’s been over a year wait and nothing has changed unless you have a RED or money to get an EPIC. I just hope they’ve learned a lesson to not lie or at least be better at blue balling people. Who knows what Canon, Panasonic or Sony have up their sleeves? They’ve been in the market longer and are starting to realize what people want and really need. I know that RED is trying hard to not be vapor wear which I think they aren’t, they should just keep their mouth shut and come out when we least expect it. Sorry but I’m keeping my Mark II and forgetting about RED for another 2-3 years when computer power/software catch up with their cameras and I hope it’s enough time for them to release the camera for my needs and price range.

Thanks to the RED team for all their hard work. I at least look forward to working with their EPICS. Someone will always have one.

 

[Jack Kelly]

I'm in awe of what RED are doing and I can't wait to hire one of the new RED cameras. But it's now very clear to me that RED's line up contains almost every conceivable camera except the one I want: S35 sensor, decent codec (ideally compressed RAW but 10-bit log RGB would do), audio inputs and dumb lens mounts for around the $6,000 mark for a fully working camera (minus lenses and recording media). I don't need AF, stills, GPS, WiFi or remote control.

I'd be willing to bet that Canon and/or Nikon and/or Sony and/or Panasonic will have such a camera on the market within 12 months, quite possibly within the next 6. And they'll sell a freakin boat load of them. Canon are more than half way there with the 1D mk 4.

Or maybe someone will "andromedise" the GH1 / 7D with an add-on RAW recording module.

Like I say: I love what RED are doing. Their ambition is remarkable. But their prices are, frankly, out of my league.

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

The Luimère Brothers, are known for their invention of cinema camera/projector.

Méliès is known for being "the father os special effects" because of it's photografic effects.

Eisenstein and Grifith are both known as "the parents of editing".

Arri is known for making excellent movie cameras since 1917 - almost 100 years.

Panavision form making the first anamorphing lenses without distortion with focal point change (unlike Cinemascope), and then cameras since 1974.

Zeiss, is known for it's quality lenses.

Dalsa is known for the release of the first 4K camera.

And the list is endless...


RED? So far RED is known for the release of RED ONE camera. And that's all.

"That's all" ?

Whether you meant it or not, you a) have just made an insult; & b) don't know what you are talking about.

Red should think about recruiting top talent from top-tier engineering schools or even overseas.

See above.

http://www.engadget.com/2008/12/03/reds-big-change-announcement-is-big-for-pros-disappointing-f/

RED's "big change" announcement is out. The good news: no more waiting. Unfortunately, that's about it

This quote shows the level of technical expertise of the author = sad.
Don't mean any disrespect, but what ever you are suggesting with that Engadget quote is not working.

 

[Tim H.]

I'd be willing to bet that Canon and/or Nikon and/or Sony and/or Panasonic will have such a camera on the market within 12 months, quite possibly within the next 6.

The Canon 1D Mark 4 can shoot about 10fps RAW (4896 x 3264) uncompressed and this is with a physical shutter moving up and down and all other types of processing going on. They really are not that far off if they can take the same chip, remove the physical shutter and concentrate on getting that data up to 24, 30, 60 fps +. For a company like Canon this is not difficult it's just that they don't understand the market, at least until now. They are so big that the right hand doesn't know what the left hand is doing. If they fold the video team into their dslr team and starting sharing tech they will be even that much closer. The fact that their marketing team is starting to market to the cinema industry means that corporate Canon is finally starting to get it. This is very encouraging and a sign of what is to come from them.

Think about it, my Canon 5D2 has a FF chip that skips every line. How much will it really take for them to read it all out to a Raw codec (maybe from Cinemform?) and put it in a more film friendly body with more room for the extra boards and cooling that they need for this? Exciting stuff to come.

Now, that being said, I want to buy a Red product. I like what Red is doing and I want them to succeed. I want to buy that S35 or FF brain I'm just not sure when it will be here and at what price.