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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Rants

Jack Kelly said:
Whining about whiners. Would that be "meta-whining"?

;)
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I guess...
but its more about telling people to shut their mouths.
Look, I dont want these complainers to leave a bad taste in the mouth of RED, Especially the NON customers who claim such hardcore support towards the company.
Because then, we will never get another inside peek again. Get it?
 
first off this isn't a complaint in the least, just a question.
So why wait until Nov. 30th for another announcement? Is there something happening between now and then? Also I didn't see where the Nov. 30th date was announced.

On another note, I was a little frustrated after reading the announcement at first, but after reading this thread I'm perfectly fine with it. 3K for 3K was called off long ago, I never expected it to come back. Although I do wish that concept still existed. I don't make money with my camera right now, I just like using them for my own purposes and I'm kind of a gadget freak, but to be honest even $6000 for a working camera is still within reach for me and I'm betting I make less money then anyone on this forum. Saving up will take a lot longer, but its far off from trying to buy a red1 just cause you like using cameras, that would be completely out of the question (in my position, not implying anyone else).

On my last note, I think there might be less backlash if Jim would list the subject matter of the next announcement before it comes out, instead of leaving it to "anything is possible in this next announcement." Either that, or at least acknowledge all the big unanswered questions in some way, even if he's not giving any new news.
 
These announcements are just progress reports. Red is making excellent progress on the new modular models considering that they were introduced as a firm design concept less than a year ago. In that time they have progressed to first run production prototypes for Mysterium-X at the alpha stage, soon to be beta stage. This is an amazing achievement.
 
D Fuller said:
I wouldn't be too sure of that. It's still full-value tradable for an Epic brain. And it's available now.
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where did you read that? not what i saw, and yes, this kills my desire to buy the camera again, and i am probably not the only one.
 
Ryan Paige said:
Probably because about two years ago, Red said they were making a 3K camera for under $3K, so a lot of people started following along, actually believing that something like that was coming for some reason.

And then the delays, but with the delays come promises of a better camera for just slightly more money. And then more delays with promises of a better camera for slightly more money. And then even more delays with promises of a better camera for slightly more money.

Yes, I'm confidently sure that the Scarlet that eventually comes out will be a better overall value than the one that would've come out at the end of 2008; however, you can't blame people for being frustrated after years of delays and price increases, however slight they may or may not be, especially just after they've waited for weeks with baited breath only to get what kind of seems like another delay and another slight price increase.

And for those who jumped on board based on the 3K for $3K, the whole "why are you complaining that they promised something they're never going to offer" is a little bit insulting even if what they do eventually offer is better (and, potentially, a better value despite being more expensive).
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You make great points here and I understand you feelings. However, imagine Red releases the original Scarlet, 3k for $3k at the same time as the current new and improved fixed scarlet. 3k for ??? (my guess $4.5K). Do you think all the followers of the 3k for $3k will get the 2008 scarlet, or save an extra 1.5k for the current scarlet. Trust me, if there not the dumbest bunch of people on the planet, they will work the asses of for that extra 1.5k and get the new one. I was and still am in favor for the $3k for 3k deal, however I know that if I can save 3k I can work a little harder or longer for an extra 1.5k. The biggest thing is I know that the extra 1.5k will benifit me a SHIT LOAD. Please just look at the old scarlet, then the new one and ask yourself is the delay and the mild 1.5 k increase worth it.


Ooh hell yeh...:devil::thumbup1:
 
Paranormal activity has grossed $70M, and is still going strong. Shot on a 5 year old 1080i DV camcorder. Wouldn't have made a penny more if shot on the Red.

Disclosure: I have a Red and love it. However, you will always be better off spending your money on lights, lenses, and a good DP. Also spending less time on Reduser and writing your script isn't a bad idea either :)

Red has not once marketed itself as a consumer brand. Not even prosumer for that matter. Whether people interpret it as a consumer brand is one thing (i.e. 3K for $3K), but that doesn't make it so.

A Red ONLY helps people who can light well. If you're not spending time and money on lighting, a Red, with all its glorious 4K resolution and 8-9 stops of DR, will do you no good.

For everyone upset about the Scarlet being more expensive, if you could only spend $3K on a camera, chances are you're lighting and lens budget would be low, thereby negating the reason to have all that resolution, fps, and dof the Scarlet would offer anyway. You'd be just as well of with a used HVX for $3K.

Oh yea, and there's no such thing as a free lunch. Even in the film industry. Though some people on Craigslist may disagree...
 
Like I said in the thread about Eugenia's blog post, this whining is a bit premature... The biggest problem people seem to have is about the price, and we don't actually know what that is going to be!

The last price given for the Scarlet 'complete kit' (which probably contains the brain, handle and an LCD) was $3750. A mild price increase might put that somewhere around the $4200 to $4500 price range. Would that really be the end of the world? I mean, once you factor in the fact that the camera is far better than the original Scarlet concept, a $1500 price rise is nothing... Even if it turns out to be $5500 for a complete kit, that's still cheaper than an EX1 for a camera that will rival cameras with prices multiple times that.
 
Have you 3k for 3k guys really thought about how deep this rabbit hole gets? Do you know how much processing power it takes to play back the footage at 24fps? How much storage to keep project files on standby? How much the tape back up systems/cartridges cost to archive the footage? I'm simple stating that being a filmmaker for 3k is not realistic. The costs are very high in production for insurance, locations, rentals, etc. This filmmaker dream has been so mass marketed by so many different companies. If you guys are relying on tools like Scarlet to get in the game... you are thinking wrong.

Its better to think of how to get clients/investors and structuring yourself to be in that money stream... that stream is overcrowded as hell with bigger fishes than you guys (both materialistically and creatively). Yes skill can make you stand out... the problem is that you don't really need to own a camera for your skill to stand out. Everyone is camera, camera, camera. Sometimes I offer to collaborate with directors for FREE and they still can't get the projects off the ground. Even with the help of my 2 RED cameras, 7 cinema lenses, computers, DIT workflow, etc. So even low end indie production is still a big money game... no way to get around this folks. The 3k for 3k guys more easily fit into the current Canon vDSLR sector due to their lack of deep pockets. The reason why I state this is if you can barely muster 3k then how much money can you reasonable have for the rest of the other production tools? So instantly your workflow fits into the verite documentary/video event category which current Canon cameras are very good at capturing.
 
I love what RED are doing and I honestly can't wait to hire one of their cameras. My main point is simply this:

Some time within the next 6-18 months, it seems very likely that Canon (or Nikon or Panasonic or Sony) will have a video camera which uses a super-35mm sized sensor, has minimal rolling shutter issues, downsamples from the full sensor resolution nicely, records audio well, uses a respectable codec (although probably not RAW) and will sell around the $5,000 price point. Assuming it doesn't have any deal breaking flaws, they will sell an absolute boat load of those cameras. Sure, that camera probably wont have a lovely compressed RAW codec like REDRAW and it almost certainly wont be modular but for many applications it'll be Plenty Good Enough.

Let me stress this point again: I'm not complaining. I already have several cameras and they get plenty of use. I love RED's can-do, open attitude and I frequently push for the use of RED ONEs on rental projects. I totally appreciate that RED have done a phenomenal job of changing the industry for the better and that their engineering prowess is truly remarkable. All I'm saying is: it surprises me that RED have made the decision not to compete directly with the new breed of large-sensor video cameras which are almost certainly coming from multiple manufacturers in the next 6-18 months. Maybe these cameras wont materialise. But that sounds unlikely. Yes, the Scarlet 2/3" is priced around the "prosumer" pricepoint and is an amazing camera. But for those of us who are hooked on being able to use inexpensive stills glass on a super-35mm sensor, 2/3" just ain't gonna cut it. And RED's cheapest S35mm offering sounds like it'll be 2 or 3 times as expensive as the competition's (rumoured) S35mm offerings (albeit without RAW). That's a shame. Say what you will about folks who balk at spending upwards of $15k on a camera but the simple truth of the matter is that price is a huge factor in most peoples' buying decisions (not least because many people *do* understand that the camera is only a small part of creating a full shooting kit). For many folks, a $5k S35mm camera shooting AVCHD (or whatever) will trump a $15k S35mm camera shooting compressed RAW 9 times out of 10. (update there is speculation that a full, S35mm Scarlet shooting kit (albeit the absolute bare minimum) weighs in at more like $10k than $15k - Cheapest S35 Scarlet package...)

True, RED have never explicitly said they'd target the "prosumer" market.

True, a large commercial or feature production may spend $15k on 35mm negative purchasing, developing and scanning every few days of shooting. For those guys, a S35mm Scarlet could be bought with petty cash. But you've got to understand that tools like 35mm adapters and vDSLRs have created huge demand for large sensor cameras from folks whose clients do not have stacks of cash and who, a few years ago, would have been shooting their docs/shorts/events/community videos/features/music vids on a DVX100. It looks likely that Canon/Nikon/Sony/Panasonic will address that demand some time soon. I had always thought RED would be the first to address that market. Turns out I was wrong.

Of course, my surprise is entirely down to my misunderstand RED's approach. When I first heard about Scarlet all those years ago, I always thought the Scarlet would be RED's answer to an HVX with a 35mm adapter (i.e. a large sensor camera). But now I understand I was incorrect. RED's sights are directed more towards ARRI, Panavision and Kodak and that's a fantastic feat.

Of course, this post is based on rumoured or provisional information so it could be completely off the mark.

Before responding, please remember that all I've done here is state rumoured information with some personal interpretation. I haven't made any value judgements.
 
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I was typing my post while Andrae was typing his. I completely agree with Andrae's post.

My only slight point would be that I think the post workflow for compressed RAW at 24fps will get a lot less painful soon, largely because of OpenCL and high performance General Purpose GPU processors like nVidia's Fermi GPUs. Just take a look at the recently Adobe/nVidia demo showing Premiere Pro playing back multiple R3D streams in real time with multiple effects applied to each video.
 
Cüneyt Kaya said:
lost your credibility?

if your credibility is based on something that doesent exist, well dude its your life
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Something that doesn't exist? It's posted on the website, a price was announced and removed. This is called trust.
I was pushing an entire TV Station to delay all their project to invest in RED Scarlet. They didn't want to listen to me, they didn't want to believe in RED. Looks that they were right.
When the news about this announcement of October 30th was posted it should be indicated the extra delay for Scarlet.
When you are alone against "thousand" to take the defense of RED, you need more support.
In another way, I should also be pro-active, contact Jim and Jarred, explain them my situation and ask them more information. I didn't dare to disturb them.
 
Jack Kelly said:
Some time within the next 6-18 months, it seems very likely that Canon (or Nikon or Panasonic or Sony) will have a video camera which uses a super-35mm sized sensor, has minimal rolling shutter issues, downsamples from the full sensor resolution nicely, records audio well, uses a respectable codec (although probably not RAW) and will sell around the $5,000 price point.
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How do you come to that belief? Sony have already had a go and their camera costs $150,000. Arri have had a go and their cameras start at $50,000. We've seen what Nikon and Canon can produce so that just leaves Panasonic. I think someone will invent a $10 teleport system before they produce a $5k digital cinema camera. But hey, you never know...
 
Liam Hall said:
How do you come to that belief? Sony have already had a go and their camera costs $150,000. Arri have had a go and their cameras start at $50,000. We've seen what Nikon and Canon can produce so that just leaves Panasonic. I think someone will invent a $10 teleport system before they produce a $5k digital cinema camera. But hey, you never know...
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You're right - I don't know for certain that Canon/Sony/Panasonic/Nikon will produce a $5k s35mm interchangeable lens camera. It's "just a theory". Let me lay out the evidence I'm basing my statements on.

stuff we know for sure
  • Canon's 1D mk 4 has a sensor which almost certainly could be used as the basis of a digital cinema camera. It's just a tad larger than super-35mm. It has wonderful sensitivity and dynamic range. It can certainly produce 8-bit (line skipped) 1080p video with minimal rolling shutter artefacts and it can produce full-res 14-bit RAW at 10 fps. I guess there is no way of knowing where the bottle neck is in terms of shooting 14-bit full res RAW at 24fps - is it the sensor or the downstream processing or the storage? (update just read this thread on reduser: Why couldn't somebody take a 7D/5D/GH1/D3s/etc., remove the sensor and build a camera. Graeme and Jim chip in. Graeme makes a very compelling argument that the 7D sensor definitely cannot produce full res images at 24fps... so maybe I'm incorrect to suggest that the 1D4's sensor would make a good digital cinema sensor. In other news - there are rumours that the GH1 doesn't use line skipping but does something a bit more sensible... so perhaps the GH1 sensor would be a good start).
  • Canon have expertise in producing video camera bodies, lens mounts, AF systems etc

rumours
  • March 2009, Canon Rumours: New Video Camera System. "Canon is working on a pro video camera that has a 1x APS-C CMOS sensor able to capture up to 120hz or full frames a sec...body will be similar to that of the XL H1 with an EOS mount fully manual controls... launched sometime in 2010... Other specs on the firmware of the camera are: 720p 60,30 1080p, 24, 30 and 60. EF and EF-S lens compatibility...The video format will be a flavor of MPEG 4 with a roof at 56Mbits/sec. Work is being done on a video RAW format that will be 12bit only, and will need a special IO module separate from the default package.
    While no pricing has been set, they target under 8k for the base system with the 16mm WIde and 4k or more for the IO module with uncompressed SDI Out and USB 3... Specs may change."
  • It seems likely that Canon were totally taken by surprise by the success of the 5D2 with filmmakers. Each successive camera (7D, 1D4) has slightly improved video performance over its predecessor, which suggests that Canon are taking video seriously but they haven't yet had time to build a video-orientated camera.
  • Sept 2009, Canon Rumours: State of the Video Union - "Digic V has a new on die area for video processing which lets it do up to 60 1080p frames a second with help from a pre-encoding ASIC chip that does pixel binning really fast. This will generate an image with almost no visible artifacts or moire. It will still be a step below RAW video but quality will be usable on production environments and on heavily detailed scenes."
  • August 2009, Nikon Rumours: Nikon Video Firmware "...working on firmware that only supports video... At any rate he/she says there’s hardware support for h.264 encoding. He/she also said that there is support from increments of 24 fps and 30 fps (so 24, 48, 72, 96 etc. and 30, 60, 90, etc) but I didn’t ask how high... He/she said 1080p, 720p, 480p, and 320p (?) are supported... He/she said that there wouldn’t be anything soon but it would be in the lifespan of a D300s... He/she did mention working with a team that is developing a NEF equivalent for video. Which was very high in bitrate necessitating high end media.”
  • August 2009, Cinema5D: Rumor: 2011 Full-sensor camcorders from Sony - Alpha 1000 "The full sensor VDSL concept with interchangeable lenses (code-named "Alpha 1000") is believed to be released no later then 2011 and it will merge photo and video capabilities "as never before?!"... possibly announced at NAB 2010"

Granted, the digital cinema cameras from Arri, Sony and Panavision cost upwards of $50,000. But I would suggest those cameras cost such vast sums for 2 reasons: 1) they're not planning to make many cameras (not compared to an XLH1, anyway) and they have to make up the costs of R&D, support etc 2) I would speculate that the price is based on what the (tiny) target market can bare, not what it costs to make.

So yes, you're right - there is no concrete evidence that Sony/Panasonic/Nikon/Canon will produce an "affordable" S35mm video camera within the next 18 months. But neither is it complete guesswork either - there is some evidence to support the theory. But I wouldn't bet any money on it happening.

And if you're interested in 2/3" RAW cameras then there are a host of cameras which have been announced and are in various stages of development (Ikonoskop A-Cam DII, Drama, SPARTA (aka Bluecam), APERTUS). More info here: http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Movie_Making_Manual/Cinematography/Large_sensor_digital_film_cameras
 
Jack, excellent summary.

Why I think Canon is most likely to be the first out of Sony, Panasonic, Nikon or JVC to really make something close to what we want is the fact that they already have it in their DSLR's but it needs some improvement (which they are obviously working on). They also have a line of aging (some discontinued) video cameras in the 4K to 9K price range. This is the perfect price point for the new camera and they don't have more expensive cameras above this to worry about protecting.

As long as Canon Corp doesn't drop the ball there is a good chance of this Rumor being true. This is also the reason I've said all along that trying to compete with DSLR's is silly and a waste of time for Red. The DSLR will be a testing ground for S35, FF35 video but these manufacturers will migrate to true video/cinema bodies which will become the true competition for Red. Why waste time developing features or trying to make the ergonomics of the new Red cameras work for DSLR when they are doing the opposite.

Now, the one thing that really excites me about the new cameras from Red is the ability to take control of the focusing. While a good focus puller may still be needed it will really be a boost to smaller crews to be able to set focus points in the camera and allow it to talk to the Canon/Nikon lenses and pull focus. Doubt that we will see this from Canon (at least for a while).
 
Jarred Land said:
And please please please... if there is one thing that does piss me off, is when people keep saying "RED PROMISED THIS, RED PROMISED THAT," . We never promised anything. Every single one of Jim's posts tell you to expect things to change.
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28K camera for $100 in 6 months!!! It will be amazing!!!

6 months later...28k camera for $1000 in 6 months!! It will be amazing!

6 months later...28k camera for $10,000! It will be amazing!

If you were to do this there would be hype to begin with, and then annoyance. It happened with the Scarlet, though obviously to a lesser scale.


...I don't think it's promises. We see details announced about specific products and we do expect changes. But it doesn't mean it's disappointing when the product is completely changed, the price is raised, and the delays go into years...You can't expect not to be disappointed.
 
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