Rants

[Tim H.]

We never targeted the consumer market nor ever announced intentions to target the consumer market. Scarlet, all the way down the the removable 2/3", are professional tools. We don't care who uses them, but they are built and designed for professionals.

And please please please... if there is one thing that does piss me off, is when people keep saying "RED PROMISED THIS, RED PROMISED THAT," . We never promised anything. Every single one of Jim's posts tell you to expect things to change.

We know things change and we tell everyone that things will change. it is pretty simple. If you dont like it, there are tons of other camera companies out there.

Jarred, this makes me sad. Do you really feel that way about people who could not afford the Red camera but have been cheerleaders and supporters of Red all this time while waiting through delay after delay for something they could finally afford? They didn't make up the 3K price, this is what was told to them by Red. They waited and have been supportive and now feel a bit let down. Why do you just want to dismiss them and say, if you don't like it - leave?

Jim, you are an experienced business man, do you think this is the way to treat your customers and "fan base"?

How many of the users on this board actually own a Red camera? What % would you say? Do you think it's the few people who are actually shooting on Red that propped up Red or do you think it's the huge fan base of those that come here, support Red, dream of owning a Red and spread the word like a wildfire that actually help Red to succeed?

 

[Anson Fogel]

Lots tim, lots

Lots tim, lots

Tim -

In answer to your question for Jarred, let me chime in - a LOT of people own and shoot red. There are 6000 Red 1's out there, some owned by people like me, and a lot more being rented out - meaning tens of thousands of people work with the existing R1 product - and this forum is their/our resource, and an incredible resource at that. I spend a lot of time here on RedUser, and a large portion of the posts and threads are about USING the existing cameras, by either owners, renters, and other people working with red.

RED has always been clear about, and walked the talk about, taking care of and catering to their customers. My support and experience has been incredible. They have always also been very clear that they build professional tools for professionals, and the products and actions support that.

None of that precludes inclusion of people that would like to own Scarlet or other products. But I wanted to get those facts out there.

 

[Brad Webb]

Wow, what a bunch of whiners. Maybe this is why Canon fucks over their customers by making them buy whole new cameras when all that is required is a firmware update. Red announces a ridiculously inexpensive camera system, that outperforms cameras 10 x it's price, where every accessory you buy will work with every RED camera you will ever use and everyone throws a bitch fit because it cost more than free. What the fuck. These cameras are amazing. The EPIC is on par or better than the genesis, hell it may even outperform 35mm film. And the SCARLETs, The 2/3 outperforms the Varicam and the CineAlta, both 6 figure cameras, and you can pick one up for $5K - 6K, and all of you have the balls to bitch about how it cost too much. REALLY, REALLY? It's LESS AN HVX, LESS THAN A EX-3, and blows both out of the water.

The best part is that you invest in the 2/3 fixed. You get the 2.8 LCD, you get CF card reader, Redhandle w/battery, and a CF Card, blam - you're out shooting. Then as you save up you can add on other modules and enhance your kit. Then you start making some money with you camera, and boom, you can buy the S35 scarlet for @$7K and all you modules still work for it. A few years later you're ready for to make a feature, you RENT an EPIC brain (that's all) and you can use your modules and lenses to make you feature. Then later, you can buy you're own EPIC, and you're still using the same side CF card reader and REDhandle you bought 10 years ago.

Or you can go with canon, and have 20 different camera bodies in 10 years that still have moire and aliasing issues.

 

[Brad Webb]

I'm disappointed that they didn't announce at least a target release schedule for all the cameras, but after seeing this bitchfest thread, I totally understand why. I can't imagine how pissed off Jim and Jarred are right now. This is really a slap in the face to everyone at RED. They should just scrap the entire Scarlet program so they don't have to deal with all this bullshit. I'm pretty sure that after reading this section Jim thought about it. You people suck. Happy Halloween.

 

[András Puiz]

at least be better at blue balling people

I'm sure they'd prefer to call it "RED balling."

 

[Cid J Salcido Uyarra]

I'm disappointed that they didn't announce at least a target release schedule for all the cameras, but after seeing this bitchfest thread, I totally understand why. I can't imagine how pissed off Jim and Jarred are right now. This is really a slap in the face to everyone at RED. They should just scrap the entire Scarlet program so they don't have to deal with all this bullshit. I'm pretty sure that after reading this section Jim thought about it. You people suck. Happy Halloween.

It would have been better if there where no release dates to begin with, especially in 2008. And as far as scraping the Scarlet line, that's not a bad idea. Scarlet is too in the middle between pro-sumer and pro. And if that's the case we'll still be shooting Canon, Panasonic or Sony. I'm sure all the new RED cameras will out preform CineAlta, Phantom, Varicam, or Genesis but who actually has a camera right now to shoot with?

 

[Anson Fogel]

Go shoot something

Go shoot something

Here's an idea - let's go shoot something. I'm picking up my tools and heading out. Try it.

 

[Jack Kelly]

Let's all kiss and make up.

Group hug.

There we go... isn't that better

 

[Zakaree Sandberg]

Exactly Anson..
the guys sitting on here whining about this and that.. and how they cant afford anything over 3 grand..
they need to get anything they can... and just go shoot, so they can step it up and eventually buy themselves the pro gear

 

[Cid J Salcido Uyarra]

Here's an idea - let's go shoot something. I'm picking up my tools and heading out. Try it.

It's weird but I was thinking the same. We probably spend more time on this board than we should instead of shooting. Charging my batteries and emptying out the flash cards as we speak. Tonight is going to get wild. At least we know what the score is and can go about our life like Fall 2007.

 

[Liam Hall]

Don't try to stop me here.

I didn't. You told me to leave this thread. You also inferred I was a wise-ass. Not very nice and not very accurate really...

 

[András Puiz]

Wow, what a bunch of whiners. ... bitch fit because it cost more than free ... you have the balls to bitch about how it cost too much ...

Easy on the insults, dude, especially if you're this clueless about why people complain.

Are all these cameras an excellent value for money?
Yes.

Does RED sell a $3K camera?
No.

Obviously those of us who want to see a lower entry price point are more than willing to compromise on the features. I'd take 2K for $2K from RED faster than it takes you to type up another insult.

 

[Tim H.]

Tim -

In answer to your question for Jarred, let me chime in - a LOT of people own and shoot red. There are 6000 Red 1's out there, some owned by people like me, and a lot more being rented out - meaning tens of thousands of people work with the existing R1 product - and this forum is their/our resource, and an incredible resource at that. I spend a lot of time here on RedUser, and a large portion of the posts and threads are about USING the existing cameras, by either owners, renters, and other people working with red.

RED has always been clear about, and walked the talk about, taking care of and catering to their customers. My support and experience has been incredible. They have always also been very clear that they build professional tools for professionals, and the products and actions support that.

None of that precludes inclusion of people that would like to own Scarlet or other products. But I wanted to get those facts out there.

Yes, I agree with everything you have said. I'm not bashing Red at all. I just get sad when companies (even Red) take this, like it or leave it attitude. If people are bitching for no other reason to be bitching then there is no place for it but if some people were under the impression that they would have a baby red for 3K and never get it then those people will need to decide if they want to file that in the "we warned you ahead of time that things will change" category or the "based on Red over delivering in the past we have good faith that a 3K camera will materialize one way or another" category.

I'm not waiting on the sidelines bitching, I'm out shooting with what I can afford to own and what I must rent to do a job. When the stars aline and there is a Epic or Scarlet for me to buy at a price that works for me I will be there. Hell, I'm even tempted to buy the Epic at 28K as a Tattoo module just because I feel like being part of a revolution but I don't think there are enough of them to go around nor am I going to be granted the right to buy one from Red as there are other customers in line.

 

[András Puiz]

I didn't. You told me to leave this thread. You also inferred I was a wise-ass. Not very nice and not very accurate really...

(Sigh.) Just like there's no censorship here, I also didn't infer that you were a wise-ass. I said, "[...] a lot of wise-ass perspective a bunch of people will want to lecture me on".

Everybody isn't out there to get you.

And yes, I did ask you to leave. As in, don't come to the complaint department and tell people not to complain.

Not continuing this dialog here. If you really insist, PM me.

 

[Liam Hall]

Everybody isn't out there to get you.

I'm quite calm and happy here...

 

[Tim H.]

Wow, what a bunch of whiners. Maybe this is why Canon fucks over their customers by making them buy whole new cameras when all that is required is a firmware update.

First, very professional language there? Do you talk like that when companies hire you? Chill man.

As far as Canon, did they make you by that whole new Camera? No. Exactly what features can they just plug in to their firmware? Why is this always about Canon? What about Sony, Panasonic, JVC, Arri, etc?

Red announces a ridiculously inexpensive camera system, that outperforms cameras 10 x it's price, where every accessory you buy will work with every RED camera you will ever use and everyone throws a bitch fit because it cost more than free. What the fuck. These cameras are amazing. The EPIC is on par or better than the genesis, hell it may even outperform 35mm film. And the SCARLETs, The 2/3 outperforms the Varicam and the CineAlta, both 6 figure cameras, and you can pick one up for $5K - 6K, and all of you have the balls to bitch about how it cost too much. REALLY, REALLY? It's LESS AN HVX, LESS THAN A EX-3, and blows both out of the water.

I have faith that the Epic will be "Epic", no argument there. But maybe you should wait until the camera is actually out and in use before you claim that it's better than anything 10x it's price. We will have to wait and see.

Would you say Red One is better than anything 10x it's price? Sorry, I'm a fan of the camera but it's not better than a lot of cameras especially at 10x the price. More affordable for what it offers, yes. Better? Not in all cases.

The best part is that you invest in the 2/3 fixed. You get the 2.8 LCD, you get CF card reader, Redhandle w/battery, and a CF Card, blam - you're out shooting. Then as you save up you can add on other modules and enhance your kit. Then you start making some money with you camera, and boom, you can buy the S35 scarlet for @$7K and all you modules still work for it. A few years later you're ready for to make a feature, you RENT an EPIC brain (that's all) and you can use your modules and lenses to make you feature. Then later, you can buy you're own EPIC, and you're still using the same side CF card reader and REDhandle you bought 10 years ago.

Or you can go with canon, and have 20 different camera bodies in 10 years that still have moire and aliasing issues.

I agree with your first paragraph here. This is the most exciting thing. The modular approach and the care Red has taken to make sure this all works together in such an expandable way is awesome. I love it!!!!

Canon makes rock solid, kick ass still cameras and if you want to compare in that area they kill. Now, video, not so much but this is their first year in this arena. 10 years and 20 bodies from now, who knows. Why are you not putting Sony here instead of Canon? Sony has made how many models in the last few years? That is who is competing with Red, not Canon.

 

[REDneck]

And the SCARLETs, The 2/3 outperforms the Varicam and the CineAlta, both 6 figure cameras, and you can pick one up for $5K - 6K

You have no idea what it outperforms, or how it performs at all. You have no idea what its footage will look like. You have no idea how much it will cost. You're vehemently defending a puff of steam.

 

[András Puiz]

Exactly Anson..
the guys sitting on here whining about this and that.. and how they cant afford anything over 3 grand..
they need to get anything they can... and just go shoot, so they can step it up and eventually buy themselves the pro gear

Or, maybe they don't need others to tell them what to do.

Look, I'm not here for advice today. I'm here to raise the issue of a low-end product that RED once considered and then abandoned.

As far as what I will shoot, how I will shoot it and when, and how eventually I will finance my high-end gear... Let's talk about it some other time.

 

[Stephen Matthews]

Most people have weird things in there minimum set up here are the one's I'm thinking (red handle, 2.5 lcd, cf module/redmote, 2.5 lcd, cf/ just a cf be kind of cool not seeing what is shot) but if you are on a budget you can always buy the other components later on down the road. Honestly if these systems are out of your price range or are making you apprehensive of purchasing it, then maybe you should buy what is in your price range and shoot and practice on it.

No offense but if you can't put 10k into a camera then you should be happy with what you can afford. Hey I've been following this program from the start, I would have loved to own a red one when I first herd about it, but I didn't have the cash, but that doesn't mean I went complaining to them about their camera being cheaper just to cater to me. the reality of it is my skills don't really necessitate a camera such as the red one yet, it would be like giving an Ferrari to a teenager, or an average six year old the finest easel and oil paints in the world (much better ways of putting this but you get my point.....hopefully).

the complaints about dates are ludicrous they have always been subject to change, seems a large amount of people around here don't get it. Also the whole open program where we are let into the development process is great but it brought on this barrage of irrational complaints. And the fact that the owner and many of the workers will come on here and talk to you is amazing let alone address your posts filled with hate and ignorance. Yeah I would be pissed to if I had convinced myself that scarlet would be 3k and out now, so I could shoot my underexposed or overexposed, or horribly flat, or just plain boring videos.

How about renting, borrowing and learning the craft the old fashioned way, because from peoples posts about their disappointment in the announcement they obviously have no idea what the features announced actually do and how big a step some of them are.

I for one am happy the scarlet isn't out yet as i don't deserve it yet, nor can I really justify the purchase at this moment. But in time I will save up more money, and work on my craft more with the restrictions I have now, but work extra hard to make a half decent product within the limitations. I really wish some of you would just calm down and really understand what RED is, a whole new company with a new way of doing things. They are very young but from the announcement it seems they are beginning to find their place.

Thank you RED team and please understand that many of these are just young filmmakers who are still living in the initial dream world we all start in not yet knowing the reality of the production world. They want the best product possible hell I did I bought the hd100u as soon as it came out but to be honest have never fully pushed it to it's limits and gotten the great footage others have. Like I said before I don't deserve these camera's yet but hopefully soon I will, and maybe just maybe that's the case with some of you here.

for all the others, there is always a group who will complain and find a reason to be unhappy, fine you have every right to complain just try and keep an open mind to what others are telling you as we will do the same with you.

sincerely Stephen Matthews

keep on shooting
(I'm gonna go shoot a short on my hd100u)

 

[Jack Kelly]

Wow, what a bunch of whiners.

Whining about whiners. Would that be "meta-whining"?