Question for post production color grading professionals.

[Dave_S]

What file format you prefer your client to deliver to you for color grading? Once you receive file how do you color grade it? I mean they don't bring individual clips they bring you the whole movie/project as one file. How do you color grade individual scenes?
Thanks for your input. Do post production house need to have both Mac (final cut pro) and PC(Adobe ppro) to deal with different file formats?

 

[Florian Stadler]

In its original capture format unless that format is lesser than prores422 in which case the project shouldn't have been taken on in the first place unless it's a real piece of art.

 

[Shiblon Wixom]

With Resolve you can use scene detection.

 

[Dermot Shane]

What file format you prefer your client to deliver to you for color grading? Once you receive file how do you color grade it? I mean they don't bring individual clips they bring you the whole movie/project as one file. How do you color grade individual scenes?
Thanks for your input. Do post production house need to have both Mac (final cut pro) and PC(Adobe ppro) to deal with different file formats?

I mainly grade TV movies and indie features, my answers are how we finish and grade, this is not really workable for TV series demands on turnaround.. works great with 5 week turnarounds tho...

1) camera orignals always + chase copy Qt + metadata + EDL/XML/AAF
2) we conform from the camera orignals, split screen with the chase copy, but as we grade and finish in the same software we can be flexiable about what order we do it all in, the film i am finishing now i did a first pass before the split screen due to the DP going onto another show
3) i grade scenes by haveing my assistant go through the de-bayer settings shot by shot, and evlauating and modifying the DiT's settings where needed, then start by doing a base pass that evens up camera mis-matches and lets me identify any issues that will cause limitations once we start the creative grade, then i work on looks with the DP & director, next pass is usualy about digital makeup, sky replacements and similar fun eyecandy stuff
4) we don't need and don't keep any off-line edit systems in house, if there's an conform issue that needs that much help it gets kicked back to editorial to sort out.

 

[Dave_S]

If we are working on windows Pc with Premiere and given pro res file to color grade how do we do that? How do we export pro res from windows/pc? How is camera original delivered to post production facility, I mean how do we edit red r3d and export as red r3d to deliver camera original? What is chase copy and split screen?

 

[Björn Benckert]

If we are working on windows Pc with Premiere and given pro res file to color grade how do we do that? How do we export pro res from windows/pc? How is camera original delivered to post production facility, I mean how do we edit red r3d and export as red r3d to deliver camera original? What is chase copy and split screen?

You deliver a XML and r3d trimmed files. Today that should work for any "professional" post house.

 

[Jaakko Rinne]

What Björn said, XML and R3D trim are a good option.

With docs and shorts I usually get the offline project, all the offline and native media and do the online myself to make sure everything goes smoothly. With the TV shows I'm working on right now all the footage has been transcoded to ProRes for editing and an assistant Mediamanages the project for me from those ProRes files (with handles in case of any surprises) for online and grading.

 

[Marc Wielage]

What file format you prefer your client to deliver to you for color grading? Once you receive file how do you color grade it? I mean they don't bring individual clips they bring you the whole movie/project as one file. How do you color grade individual scenes?

I find that most color-correction systems quickly get bogged down if you try to load it up with 2 hours of material encompassing thousands of color corrections. Splitting them up into 20-minute reels is far more practical. You can either conform each reel from an EDL and original media provided by the client, or requesting a flattened file and then slicing up the media as needed. There are pros and cons for each method, but I'd say from a purely speed point of view, the single flattened file is faster. I think conforming is better if the film is still going through changes, plus it allows you to get to the individual files for complex opticals.

Do post production house need to have both Mac (final cut pro) and PC(Adobe ppro) to deal with different file formats?

I think it's always a good idea to be prepared for editing problems and challenges, and the only way to do so is to have somebody on staff who's experienced enough in Avid and Final Cut to be able to straighten them out and get everything fixed for color correction. In a perfect world, you'd have an assistant do this, compare the conformed file to the client's original, and make sure everything is 100% perfect.

 

[Jaakko Rinne]

I find that most color-correction systems quickly get bogged down if you try to load it up with 2 hours of material encompassing thousands of color corrections. Splitting them up into 20-minute reels is far more practical. You can either conform each reel from an EDL and original media provided by the client, or requesting a flattened file and then slicing up the media as needed. There are pros and cons for each method, but I'd say from a purely speed point of view, the single flattened file is faster. I think conforming is better if the film is still going through changes, plus it allows you to get to the individual files for complex opticals.

A flattened file also requires that the editor or assistant who is exporting the flattened file knows what they're doing. I've found (especially with doc work) that quite often they don't. What I see most often is that the footage is shot progressive with a DSLR, but tagged as interlaced, so the sequence settings end up being interlaced, which can introduce terrible aliasing (in addition to the aliasing already present in the footage) and if there are e.g. any transitions, they render out as interlaced. Less of a headache for me to just charge a few hours extra to take in the actual project file and make sure everything is like it should be. But obviously depends on the production.

 

[ericyoung]

If we are working on windows Pc with Premiere and given pro res file to color grade how do we do that? How do we export pro res from windows/pc? How is camera original delivered to post production facility, I mean how do we edit red r3d and export as red r3d to deliver camera original? What is chase copy and split screen?

You can't work with ProRes in Windows. As Bjorn said, you need an XML/EDL and camera original files, or if the ProRes was an online you or your clients need to have a transcode made to a file format that Windows can read and write.

Chase copy QT is an exported Quicktime movie of the offline edit. If you play this and split screen it with your conformed edit, you can spot if there are any offset edit points or other sync or clipname discrepancies between the final offline edit and what you are grading.

 

[M Most]

You can't work with ProRes in Windows. As Bjorn said, you need an XML/EDL and camera original files, or if the ProRes was an online you or your clients need to have a transcode made to a file format that Windows can read and write.
.

Windows has been able to read Prores for at least 4 years using Apple's own software in any program that supports Quicktime (which is virtually all of them, and certainly every color grading or conforming program). And since early last year, there is an open source project that allows it to write Prores as well. This code is used by a number of commercial software vendors to allow Prores file creation in their products. And some other vendors have licensing deals with Apple that allow them to use Apple's software in Windows to do the same thing.

Bottom line: while it's not always as convenient as it is on a Mac, Prores is a very viable, widely supported, and robust codec on Windows and has been for some time.

 

[ericyoung]

Windows has been able to read Prores for at least 4 years using Apple's own software in any program that supports Quicktime (which is virtually all of them, and certainly every color grading or conforming program). And since early last year, there is an open source project that allows it to write Prores as well. This code is used by a number of commercial software vendors to allow Prores file creation in their products. And some other vendors have licensing deals with Apple that allow them to use Apple's software in Windows to do the same thing.

Bottom line: while it's not always as convenient as it is on a Mac, Prores is a very viable, widely supported, and robust codec on Windows and has been for some time.

I stand corrected - I wasn't aware you could easily write ProRes on Windows! I knew you could read it, but that would be of limited use if you couldn't also write it.

 

[Phil Holland]

Windows has been able to read Prores for at least 4 years using Apple's own software in any program that supports Quicktime (which is virtually all of them, and certainly every color grading or conforming program). And since early last year, there is an open source project that allows it to write Prores as well. This code is used by a number of commercial software vendors to allow Prores file creation in their products. And some other vendors have licensing deals with Apple that allow them to use Apple's software in Windows to do the same thing.

Bottom line: while it's not always as convenient as it is on a Mac, Prores is a very viable, widely supported, and robust codec on Windows and has been for some time.

I'll second this sentiment as I have to make deliverables in ProRes via windows and image sequences fairly often and it's a now become a standard for broadcast finals too.

We gotta get Apple, Adobe, and everybody to make wider support available. Many of us are all encoding through the backdoor methods, but I think it's somewhat silly now that after a couple years of this that we can't get official Windows support.

Apple. Get smart on this. People like using this codec for a variety of applications.

Screw it. I just made a note. I'm calling them Monday. This is just silly really. This is coming from a licensed "Quicktime Pro" owner/user too. That license should allow for this honestly.....

 

[Dave_S]

Good point Phil. when you call them mention my name as well I am very upset and confused with Apple strategy.
M.Most and Phil could you please guide me with exact steps how do I work with Pr res files in windows Pc. which plugin or software do I need to buy and from where ?
Thanks guys for your help.

 

[M Most]

Good point Phil. when you call them mention my name as well I am very upset and confused with Apple strategy.
M.Most and Phil could you please guide me with exact steps how do I work with Pr res files in windows Pc. which plugin or software do I need to buy and from where ?
Thanks guys for your help.

What exactly do you want to do? Any Windows program that supports Quicktime can read Prores files, so if you just want to use them as source files, you don't have to get anything other than Apple's ProRes for Windows codec. If you want to write them, you could either use software that already supports that (Telestream Episode comes to mind, there's also support in MTI's Cortex products and Colorfront On Set Dailies), or something like ffmbc, which is open source and for which a number of GUI's have already been written (Another GUI and others, just Google "ffmbc gui" and you'll find a bunch of them).

And Phil, if you really want to call Apple, feel free to do so. But frankly, Apple is a huge, successful company that already has a rather significant percentage of our industry's business. They really don't have to "do" anything in terms of opening their technology up, no matter how much people might want them to. And they know that. They've never shown any real interest in participating in industry initiatives or standards bodies, and I don't expect them to start now.

 

[Dermot Shane]

On the ProRez from Linux/Winoze question.. i have a BMD HypeDeck shuttle on my desktop, hit play on my timeline, rec on the shuttle, use Qtpro to truncate and QtChange to re-do the timecode, much, much much faster than rendering out a 88 min movie.. even if i use Qtref to an outboard encoder

On the source thing.. i always ask for every frame shot, i end up using elements from other shots .. yesterday i had a shot that reflections of the crew in a car, a definate QC fail, i looked at the camera reports, and sure enough they noted the reflections, and did another take, i grabbed the side fo the car from that, warpped and tracked it to fit, and the reflections were gone....all while doing digital makeup and adding a golden highlight to a bunch of shots...

Again this is not what you would do for a pipeline series, but for Inde features and MoW's that have a 5 week turnaround (dictated by the mix sched) it's a valid way to work

As to keeping it in reels.. really depends upon the tools used, some index once at the start and once the timeline is open everything is good, i keep 90 min timelines open all day every day without issue.. but the software i use does take half of forever to open the timeline in the first place and use the first 20+ gig of RAM to load it



- some will try to sort off-line issues, i kick them back,
- some will work from a flatened timeline, i ask for the camera orignals,
- some want truncated files, i ask for everything
- some will want to work in reels, i keep the entire film in one piece

all valid choices given the workflow and pipelines we all choose, none of us do the same work, have the same demands upon us, have the same ROI needs, have the same overhead, have the same tools on tap...

End game is to ask your post facility how they want a project to arrive at their doorstep & work with their strengths

d

 

[Marc Wielage]

As to keeping it in reels.. really depends upon the tools used, some index once at the start and once the timeline is open everything is good, i keep 90 min timelines open all day every day without issue.. but the software i use does take half of forever to open the timeline in the first place and use the first 20+ gig of RAM to load it...

There ya go. Imagine how much more convenient it would be to just have 5 x 20-minute timelines. It's not unusual with feature projects for individual reels to still be in the process of getting locked while color-correction is underway. If reel 3 is locked while 1 and 2 are still being worked on, it's not a big deal to start with that and then get to the other reels later. Harder to do when it's one massive project.

I have, however, worked on many 1-hour American episodic shows where we routinely had one big 43-minute file with over 1000 corrections. But when you start to add a lot of nodes and layers, it can get very, very slow. Crashes also become more potentially catastrophic. The biggest problem is changes, since one change can potentially affect all the edits that follow (particularly problematic with sound sync).

I think the best advice for the o.p. is to hire a post-production supervisor to avoid making time-consuming mistakes before they happen.

 

[Dermot Shane]

There ya go. Imagine how much more convenient it would be to just have 5 x 20-minute timelines. It's not unusual with feature projects for individual reels to still be in the process of getting locked while color-correction is underway. If reel 3 is locked while 1 and 2 are still being worked on, it's not a big deal to start with that and then get to the other reels later. Harder to do when it's one massive project.

I have, however, worked on many 1-hour American episodic shows where we routinely had one big 43-minute file with over 1000 corrections. But when you start to add a lot of nodes and layers, it can get very, very slow. Crashes also become more potentially catastrophic. The biggest problem is changes, since one change can potentially affect all the edits that follow (particularly problematic with sound sync).

I think the best advice for the o.p. is to hire a post-production supervisor to avoid making time-consuming mistakes before they happen.

Ive done loads-0-films both ways... 5 years ago when the hardware and software was not up to the task, i would always work in reels, in 2013? rarely any more, and sooner or later you will have to stitch it all together to screen a final pass anyway.... i shudder thinking of that with Cyborg2k on a Zpro a decade or so ago..... cross fingers and wait for the crash

depends upon what tools you have to work with and what the strengths and weakness are, all toola are not the same....

I'm starting a feature on Monday, 6 reels & 107 min, i have r3 & 5 lok'd only, so yea, i'll start on wot i got, i'll also be stiching the entire thang together as soon as i get the rest of the show..

i second the post sup suggestion

 

[Dave_S]

What are common issues you have come across while dealing with your clients? Whats the average time for you to color correct/grade a 90 minutes movie.... 4 weeks? How much can you color correct/grade in an 8 hour working day?

 

[Marc Wielage]

What are common issues you have come across while dealing with your clients? Whats the average time for you to color correct/grade a 90 minutes movie.... 4 weeks? How much can you color correct/grade in an 8 hour working day?

One could write a book on the answers.

I have color-timed 90-minute movies in one 12-hour day, and I've also done them in 3 months. You basically take the existing budget you have, figure out how much material you have to get done in a day, and do triage to fix the most significant problems and let everything else ride. Reasonably speaking, I think it's possible to do one 20-minute reel a day if there's not massive amounts of photographic issues and great expectations. And for every additional person with opinions in the room, add 25% to the total time needed.

I'd say 7 days for a 90-minute movie is not unreasonable: 1 day per reel (5 days), a day to review and for fixes, and a day for outputs and versioning. This is also allowing half a day for input/conform and output/file copying. Add an additional day for closed-captioning and another day for audio laybacks.

The guys on the LiftGammaGain colorist discussion group cover a lot of these problems in detail.