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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

PRORES recording for DRAGON

David Battistella said:
So. there is essentially a Prores only REDrocket X inside the Weapon?

I'm not sure it is a FULL debayer either. It depends on where information gets thrown away. Resolution for example would get thrown out first to less the load on the scaling. Considering the computing power required to do Real time 6K to 4K debayer and scaling, I still would think that RAW is the way to go. I think the Prores is there to facilitate editing and possibly finish in fast turnaround situations.

But if that amount of processing power is in camera, then they should take that chip, put it in a small external enclosure box with a TB2 I/O and replace the RRX as well.
Click to expand...

David -

The ROCKET-X card DECOMPRESSES R3Ds and THEN after that decompression - it DEBAYERS the image. The DEBAYER is trivial compared to the DECOMPRESSION.

On the camera - you have UNCOMPRESSED RBG signals that happen AFTER debayer - but BEFORE compression. These signals, after a color matrix is applied, can then be compressed to PRORES on dedicated hardware or compressed to R3D on dedicated hardware.

And this is why the camera has a FULL debayer on the LIVE signal - but only a 1/2 DEBAYER on playback. Because when the signal is LIVE - the camera does not need to DECOMPRESS.

The ROCKET-X is a very different, more flexible, more powerful animal than the purpose built decompression hardware in the camera.
 
Ok.

So it's all about what possible at the time of acquisition compared to post (after the file is written).

The bottleneck is decompressing r3d. I get it.
 
David Battistella said:
The other important factor you are missing here is why RED would start creating modules and add-ons for Legacy body styles. You are actually reviving a conversation that happened around here two years ago and all of the same things apply. You have a Weapon, you have prores. You have a EPIC dragon, find a different solution.

PIX
Atmos.
BMD just released a 400$ solution at NAB.

What you are asking for, IMHO will not happen.

Many of the recorders above have a DNX option as well so you can record AVID for your AVID clients and Prores for everyone else.

It's quite a dead conversation.
Click to expand...

Main thing is not having to press record on both of them because that might be forgotten on a long feature film. I just don't see a reason to spend $15000 just to get ProRes offline files for editorial. I think a module to do just that would be cheaper and more attractive to those that don't need what Weapon does besides that. Hopefully there might be some third party module developed for the old Epic Dragon, now that they opened up for third party developers. Having just low quality quicktimes or MXFs with the same clip names and timecode as the R3Ds without having to do anything else but pushing rec on my Epic would be worth an extra module. Something that only does that is all I need and all many others need. Build quality and other stuff is not essential for everyone.
 
Christoffer Glans said:
Main thing is not having to press record on both of them because that might be forgotten on a long feature film. I just don't see a reason to spend $15000 just to get ProRes offline files for editorial. I think a module to do just that would be cheaper and more attractive to those that don't need what Weapon does besides that. Hopefully there might be some third party module developed for the old Epic Dragon, now that they opened up for third party developers. Having just low quality quicktimes or MXFs with the same clip names and timecode as the R3Ds without having to do anything else but pushing rec on my Epic would be worth an extra module. Something that only does that is all I need and all many others need. Build quality and other stuff is not essential for everyone.
Click to expand...

They all record when you hit record, by reading the record flag that red include in the SDI signal, but there is a +-3 frames inaccuracy. I doubt that 3rd party could make such module if red did not succeed in creating such. As I understand, it would be something that takes the actual sensor feed, and not capturing the video out to make it work... and then again highframe rates etc cause their own set of problems.

One solution: you get quite a few DIT´s for 15k USD :)

I understand that people really want prores on board, but as it seams to be rather costly and rather complicated and also it fall short as high framerate proress recording is something completly different than what a pix or samuraj does... Would not the second best to on board recording be a little box with a mag slot and 2xHHD slot that duplicated r3d´s and rendered proxies on the click of a button. To me it´s more strange that RED has not made such or even more strange that there is no real 3rd part solution that does this.
 
David Battistella said:
https://vimeo.com/75928189
Click to expand...

Hahaha, perfect, but is it totally automatic? Do I need to change the file name manually? What I mean is that all it takes is one mistake on set of a 30 day shoot and it's useless.
If it's totally automatic and react to the settings done in camera it will work.


Björn Benckert said:
They all record when you hit record, by reading the record flag that red include in the SDI signal, but there is a +-3 frames inaccuracy. I doubt that 3rd party could make such module if red did not succeed in creating such. As I understand, it would be something that takes the actual sensor feed, and not capturing the video out to make it work... and then again highframe rates etc cause their own set of problems.
Click to expand...

But isn't the inaccuracy just between the monitor and the Atomos? The timecode should be accurate, right?
 
Haha.

For or totally automatic buy Weapon. I'm sure integration is perfect because it has to be apple and red approved.

Thing for me is. I actually don't care about prores onboard and never have, but I understand why people want it. In terms of TC I think that it would be best to jam TC to a pix 240 and the EPIC and then at least it should be accurate on both.

You our are right Bjorn. Someone needs to build a box called DIT in a box that copies files with one button and makes prores with another. As Mark says, it's best to make all your copies at aquisition and be done with it.

It it sounds like red did the right thing with weapon. Like if you are going to have prores as an option then just do it in a smart way instead of creating frankenrigs and all the bullshit that goes with it.

Again. Another reason I like fast computers and R3D.



Christoffer Glans said:
Hahaha, perfect, but is it totally automatic? Do I need to change the file name manually? What I mean is that all it takes is one mistake on set of a 30 day shoot and it's useless.
If it's totally automatic and react to the settings done in camera it will work.




But isn't the inaccuracy just between the monitor and the Atomos? The timecode should be accurate, right?
Click to expand...
 
Christoffer Glans said:
Hahaha, perfect, but is it totally automatic? Do I need to change the file name manually? What I mean is that all it takes is one mistake on set of a 30 day shoot and it's useless.
If it's totally automatic and react to the settings done in camera it will work.




But isn't the inaccuracy just between the monitor and the Atomos? The timecode should be accurate, right?
Click to expand...

Again no, the time code is off, not right, incorrect so It´s not just monitor delay. The video out is not accurate in terms of time code. it will differ from your r3d timecode with +-3 frames. So will your audio if you apply it to the prores files.

It´s not consistent more like the video is off beat, as I think I used the TC out for audio sync and that works fine.

Try a pix or atmos, and record the SDI signal with graphics in picture, tc etc. you will see that file names comes across perfectly and automatically, so does record on/off but TC does not the TC in the actuall picture will differ from the TC embeded in the signal or the record flag or what ever it is giving he tc to the SDI feed.

My solution to solve this when there was no playback in camera and we did not have a rocket and we needed fast proress for editing... (back in 2011) was to set my programer and make a little program that looked at the SDI signal and had a pixel reader, so when bright red pixels appeared in the upper right corner the SDI signal was recorded. then he also had a pixel text reader box that was placed over the TC in fram, reading the actual time code in the frame of the first frame recorded and giving the recorded clip that TC... such thing would work. but that would mean that you would need to build a pretty advanced proress recorder or program and record with graphics on screen, not something that the editors thought was a great idea... but we used it for a couple of months running on a laptop and a BMD thunderbolt express.

As I see it the above would be the only way to get it half right but then you would need to crop down on the signal to get rid of the graphics... i.e get sub HD proxies.

Edit: Looking for the dmg file for the above program, should have it somewhere. Called it syndicate capture tool 2 if I remember correctly I think I sold it to some people on this forum.

Only found a link to the beta version. it works but does not have the wanted TC code.

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?74990-Syndicate-Capture-Bot-Beta-Free-Download

Edit again. Nope link does not work. Will check our server for it.
 
Thinking of it..

would not the best option be a little module with a 10G ethernet connection. Sucking out the files that way and compressing them on the side... If Weapon was not around the corner then I would start building such tonight. Lol.
 
Not really enough bandwidth on that connection for motion streams.
 
Mert Icgoren said:
So, my Blackmagic Pocket Cam has enough processing power to record RAW and Prores(I know its 1080, but still), but my 25K Red Dragon is not powerful enough to do that ?


I can't believe we're debating which external recorder to buy when we can ask RED to figure out a way and release a firmware update to solve this problem.
Click to expand...
Who told you to buy Dragon? 80K Alexa could only record prores once ;)
 
Sorry to jump so late in the conversation, I actually know a DP who owns a Scarlet MX and never owned a RED mag. He is been shooting from day one on a external Black Magic shuttle that costs $400.
Funny part is that in the right set up, it uses the whole sensor on the Scarlet when shooting at 24 or 30 fps.
If requested to over crank he would borrow or rent a red mag and just play the slow mo shot back and recorded it of camera.
His argument was, my clients hire me because of the fact that I shoot on a RED, but they never need anything beyond 1080.
They are not educated enough to even use RAW files and have never complained about the quality of my work.

I also came across a DIT once that had made a script, where you point at a R3D folder, and a pro res folder with the same footage shoot with a external recorder,
and it would rename the QT files to match the names. He told me the next version he was working on would re-save the QuickTimes with the matching time code to the R3D files.

Not sure why we are still discussing the ProRes issue at all like it has not been talked to death before.
Or why anyone believes that a piece of firmware would solve the issue. How about we have the camera run iOS or Android so we can buy apps for it. lol.

RED did even announced a ProRes module at some point that obviously never hit the market and if it did because its proprietary it would have costed a fortune.
I personally think that thats one of the problems with RED's approach in general. If they made a ProRes recorder that was well intergraded in the RED eco system and would work with anything else as well.
Marketed right, chances are they would sell much more of them and that would make it feasible.
Same with other peripherals. I wish my touch screen would have a regular power and SDI port as well, so I could use it on anything else.
How about a cable adapter that lets you use RED screens and EVF on any camera or any video and regulated power sorce.

Just my 5¢
 
James Falco said:
Sorry to jump so late in the conversation, I actually know a DP who owns a Scarlet MX and never owned a RED mag. He is been shooting from day one on a external Black Magic shuttle that costs $400.
Funny part is that in the right set up, it uses the whole sensor on the Scarlet when shooting at 24 or 30 fps.
If requested to over crank he would borrow or rent a red mag and just play the slow mo shot back and recorded it of camera.
His argument was, my clients hire me because of the fact that I shoot on a RED, but they never need anything beyond 1080.
They are not educated enough to even use RAW files and have never complained about the quality of my work.

I also came across a DIT once that had made a script, where you point at a R3D folder, and a pro res folder with the same footage shoot with a external recorder,
and it would rename the QT files to match the names. He told me the next version he was working on would re-save the QuickTimes with the matching time code to the R3D files.

Not sure why we are still discussing the ProRes issue at all like it has not been talked to death before.
Or why anyone believes that a piece of firmware would solve the issue. How about we have the camera run iOS or Android so we can buy apps for it. lol.

RED did even announced a ProRes module at some point that obviously never hit the market and if it did because its proprietary it would have costed a fortune.
I personally think that thats one of the problems with RED's approach in general. If they made a ProRes recorder that was well intergraded in the RED eco system and would work with anything else as well.
Marketed right, chances are they would sell much more of them and that would make it feasible.
Same with other peripherals. I wish my touch screen would have a regular power and SDI port as well, so I could use it on anything else.
How about a cable adapter that lets you use RED screens and EVF on any camera or any video and regulated power sorce.

Just my 5¢
Click to expand...

Might work fine.... Possibly his client do not use sound or dont care that it´s +-3 frames off...
 
Christoffer Glans said:
It would be nice if there was an external recorder that records as soon as the Epic records, so that no one forgets to push the record button on that box, loosing offline files.
Click to expand...
The PIX 240 does this through record flag embedded in HDSI as well.
 
Björn Benckert said:
But I though external r3d recording was allready implemented or just around the corner no?
Click to expand...

Limited to 80MB/s though (GigE). The only way to get full tethered recording would be to hack a module to take the SATA stream off of the REDMAG module and "mount" a TCP/UDP 10GBE interface as a drive to be recorded to. And that would be a megahack.

The Best solution is an oldie but a goodie: just auto-sync the ProRes to an R3D using audio match. Both the ProRes and R3D should have identical audio so something like Syncronicity should work perfectly.
 
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