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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Professional...

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Peter Majtan said:
Liam, do not take the question out of the context. Please read the whole post as one single sentence...:

"We profess to make professional cameras. I'd love to hear your take on what exactly professional means to you."

:sifone: Peter

EDIT: Further more it is irrelevant whether the person using these cameras are professionals or not. It won't make the camera any less (or more) professional...
Click to expand...

I did read it properly and still think it is a touch ambiguous.

Anyway, it was designed to stir up comment and it certainly did that.

I agree it is irrelevant whether the person using these cameras is a pro or not and would add a professional tool does not a professional make...
 
Professional means, "cream of the crop". Through a lengthy process, becomes the best of the best. And it doesn't come cheap.
 
Antonio Forjaz said:
David,

I see what you want to say, but, please take care, some of us, like my self, live in a parts of the world, where budgets are not as high, life is not as expensive, and because of that, salaries are lower, yet, we also have the right to be able to own and shoot with the very best cameras available, but if RED takes your advice, we will not be able to afford the very best cameras in the world. Please RED, don't raise prices to a value that professionals like my self are cut off from the beauty of using RED products. But, like the $1000 that seems like the EPIC will be raised for HDRx™™ I see no problem, the problem would be raising the price $10.000...

RED prices are at the moment the correct prices. Not cheap, but not expensive, JUST RIGHT. I think RED knows why they price their products at the price they do.

You give an example to a DIT making $200 a day, I really think that depends where in the World that salary is being paid, and what the project is, and the budget is. I live in a country where minimum salary is $75 a month....I pay my DIT $125 a day, which here is a salary for a KING, the equipment is mine, I taught him all he knows about DIT. So, professional should not be about how much you make a day.
Click to expand...

Antonio,

No disrespect intended. I appreciate you post and I should re-iterate that I am making that post from a North American/European perspective. The challenges you describe are everywhere and day rates do and have to change with the "place" you are in.

Points take.

David
 
David Mullen ASC said:
I

From a practical standpoint, the word "reliable" has been mentioned a lot, and I think that's key. The product has to work consistently and it has to be robust, because often a lot of money and careers are hinging on that -- if you are on a TV series or feature spending a quarter-million dollars a day, the last thing anyone wants is a shot to not come out or the camera to go down for three hours.
Click to expand...

Since you raised the point David, reliable is a good word to bring up. But how would one judge this "reliability".

I think it is simple.

How many people on this forum have required a BACK UP camera body on a RED shoot? Sound off.

Now, I know it is wise to be "covered" in any instance of any shoot and that is just smart business, but just about every time my RED is offered up it's a REQUIREMENT FROM THE PRODUCER that a backup body be on set.

I am not saying I do not believe my RED is reliable, but I know that there is basically a REQUIREMENT to have a SECOND body ON SET at all times in my city on any PROFESSIONAL job.

That might be a cautious attitude which anyone should adopt with any new technology but the times I have needed the backup I am very glad I always have had it there.

David
 
As a matter of fact, only once on a two-cam shoot and then only as a precaution because one cam acted oddly, after build 15. The reason was someone putting screws into the fans.

I had some other (non-RED) camera going down on me, losing the EVF image and doing weird stuff like recording at the wrong frameratea few times lately, but I haven't had many REDS doing stuff like that that where the body/software has been the issue - again: Since buid 15 or 16.

I think RED made a really bad first impression when it was released, even though it said beta all over, and that impression is hard to erase. If nothing else, this is an extremely good reason NOT to release the Epic until it's done. I don't mind these thing while testing. On set, they can be disastrous.

I have had REDs go down due to bad batteries etc, but that could happen with any cam.

Problem with RED is that the baseline is the body. People have all kind of kits from that upwards, while other cams come with a higher baseline setup. My guess is that the base Epic-X kit is a way to set a higher baseline to avoid some of these situations...

Fun thing with RED is that despite all the initial issues, the rate of adaption has gone far beyond my imagination when I saw it first marketed over at DVXuser... -:)

I saw that it could be a camera for me and especially for smaller markets, but I didn't see Social Network and Pirates any time soon, even despite Che...
 
Good to hear Jim :-)

For me a professional piece of equipment does exactly what it says on the tin day in and day out. So it does a great job, and you can rely on it to always work. It's also got to be adaptable, allowing you to use it in the many varied ways in which you'll be required to use it by your clients. That's why I haven't traded in my Sony EX1 yet for a Canon 5/7D, they can take a nice image but there too many compromises with them for me to be able to use them professionally. That's also why I've still got the money in the bank that I'd saved for a RED 1, (now it's waiting to buy a Scarlet). Because the RED 1, while obviously a very professional and accomplished piece of kit in the right team's hands is too much of a compromise in other areas. Scarlet and Epic look fantastic in every way! If they are also day in day out reliable, dependable, then they will be the most wonderful, professional, piece of filming equipment I can ever dream of buying :cheers2:
 
Professional is a term which add a higher value proposition to a standard praxis .Value is what last and go beyond .So professional is what go beyond hubby and bring EXPERIENCE SKILL SETS in and out .
 
Since the beginning of the trade experience,we human give value to an ARTISAN job in relation to it lasting value first,aesthetics and craftmanship.Thus professional should be hold against the highest standard of technology in every industry .
 
Gunleik makes some very good points.

It seems that a “professional” piece of equipment can be assessed according to several different dimensions or criteria (stating the obvious).

It seems reliability is not an all encompassing metric to define “professional”, far from it.
In my mind the closer that you push the technological limits in terms of raw capability (no pun intended), the more likely that system is to be less reliable.
There is a trade off.

This principal is very well understood in the "movie" industry, extremely difficult shots and set ups barely held together for a fleeting few seconds by super glue and gaffers tape. Seemingly never ending and frustrating takes just to get the shot, that will probably occupy half a second in the final cut.

For example many professional photographers (that I know) that used to shoot film based medium format (professionally) were always expected to turn up to a job with a Hasselblad, as the client seemed to view or judge the photographer by the equipment. However the Hasselblads were always temperamental, and rather finicky, and many photographers I know (even though they owned Hasselblads) , would prefer to use a Kowa, Mamiya, Bronica etc etc. The difference is these other cameras are built like tanks and are very reliable but are heavy and unwieldy. The Hasselblad (apart from great optics), has a lot of finicky clockwork in a small space that causes it to be less reliable, a real design trade off. That’s why most “professional” photographers will pack two Hasselblads.

A formula 1 race car, pushes the limits of technology, but is very unreliable, but you wouldn’t say the Ferrrari or Williams team is unprofessional. The space program is an excellent example, totally pushing the technological limits, yet extremely unreliable systems, and yet you would not (all the time) say the engineers were unprofessional (apart from a few lapses in management and decision making).

Conversely military equipment is extremely robust made from components and electronics that are seriously overspec’d and yet on the whole extremely reliable. However the level of technology deployed in the field is not that advanced or cutting edge and is several decades behind what is currently being developed in various labs.

In my mind what Jim and Red team push out the door are systems that have in essence “future capability”, that would not normally be released into any kind of market place. Obviously they understand that a lot of people are willing to work with the natural difficulties that accompany new and more advanced technologies. The fact that some professionals are prepared to put up with these difficulties speaks volumes about the real need to have these advanced capabilities right now and being “professionals” fully understand the inherent risks.

Nothing is without risk, but if you understand these risks then failure is avoided, exactly as Gunleik sets out.

[Reliability takes time. If you try to design and release a new product (assuming non lethal situations), that is 100 % reliable first time, you get seriously bogged down and the unit price spirals out of control and the release dates are delayed by years. Due to the rapid turnover of new technologies hardware will increasingly follow the level of flakiness tolerated in software assuming replacement boards and firmware. That’s where it’s all going.]

Cheers,

Eric
 
I own three Red cameras - they are terrific and have usurped film to all intents and purposes and I was a 20 year Kodak man. I have some quibbles with the power system (poor) but love the images and new MX tech. The cameras are pro. No doubt.

However, one aspect of Red I find non-professional is the notion that simple repairs must be returned to Red. We have, we suspect, a faulty fan as the camera is shutting down periodically due to overheating (in winter here on a soundstage so pretty cool environmentwise). We opted to replace the fan. I asked to purchase a fan and was told that, even though the camera was out of warranty, that the camera must be returned to Red for repair. If we opened the camera that we would no longer be elegible for upgrade to Epic etc.

Replacing a fan must be a simple job. The notion that a simple malfunctioning fan would take a camera off a feature film for more than a week is ludicrous. "The show must go on" as one Billy Shakespeare once said. Panavision would always see to it that if a camera went down that a replacement would be provided instantly - allowing the shoot to continue.

This is the major difference between Pro companies and amateur ones - the backup. With SAG actors on strict contracts etc there isn't room for this kind of thing. I hope Red reconsider this aspect carefully.
 
As to the fans being user replaceable, Jim confirmed that... on the Epic...
Agree that "standard" maintainance should be possible to do by the user.

I think you can take some pointers as to what RED have done with the batteries on the Epic and Scarlet.


G
 
Here's my humble opinion:

Professional Equipment - The user usually needs to compromise how they accomplish a task to get the least compromised results.

Consumer Equipment - The result is compromised so that the users compromised skill set can be effective at all.

Professional People - Manage the necessary compromises needed to realize a valuable commodity.

If we're skilled, we get to make a living plying our trade.
 
James I think that’s a really cogent point. We are designing new types of 3d imaging systems, and the one thing that we haven’t completely resolved, is do you make the system completely open so that people can swap out/repair and modify every component on the system, or do you make it a closed box?..[ Or create clear zones between the two modes of use and application?] We understand that we can’ be everywhere on the globe at a drop of a hat but continued use of a system is very important.

If the system is very open then it’s much easier to knock off/ copy. An old Arri doesn’t have any IP or know how that it’s trying to conceal or protect.

With mechanical systems it is easier to offer the client a chance to repair it themselves, but with expensive CMOS type chips that can be fried by a single small static shock, that’s a tough call. In most systems the sensitive components are buried deep within sub housing and fans and other easily replaced components are generally more accessible. I think the new swap-ability of the “brains” and various processor boards/blocks might take care of such simple failures in the future and perhaps not require people to take things apart. I guess redundant systems, i.e. extra modules will be the norm for a while?
 
While I think what professional means has been covered very well by everyone. I truly love Red and believe they are a professional company through and through, however, I do have one quibble with Red. While I am fine with the delays that happen when releasing a product, I really hope that going forward Red will keep up their inventory better.

I know with a company this young there are growing pains, however, whenever I need accessories from Red they should be readily available especially with the upcoming modules. If last minute I realize an upcoming shoot requires a H.264 module I don't have, I want to be able to order it and have it shipped immediately. I also understand when releasing new cameras it may be hard to meet initial demand and I am okay with that. Once the cameras have shipped though I believe it is crucial to have all accessories readily available, especially when there are no third party options. I really feel that this is the only aspect of Red which might not be up to professional standards. Anyways, I truly am thankful to Red and appreciate the openness of Jim and Co. by asking questions like this.:thumbup1:
 
Professional

Professional

A professional camera will continue to democratize the medium of film. RED cameras put the power in the hands of the nascent and ambitious as well as the industry veterans, and as ever, the great stories will rise. RED creates opportunity by lending professionalism to all who use its tools, and along with that comes credibility in the quality of the image.

Though I'm proud of my first directorial effort, this would have looked infinitely better and more professional shot on a RED camera:
The Last Dinner


Loyal window-shopper and reader for the last 3 out of my 24 years.
Faithfully submitted,
Anderson "Drew" Boyd
 
An alternative view. Everything consumer and more. It is the bottom of the professional market where the numbers are. Using switchable/customizable menu/controls contexts can accommodate.

I glanced the professional post, the prosumer/digital stills market is easy at a good price, done for them. Even high quality 1080p50-150+ 10+bits will do, and HDR like my low end cameras. On the stills side 2/3rd might do, 4/3rds preferable, but at least 4K is needed. To the prosumer people, even stills people interested in video, that would be a dream (at least until the consumer range of panasonic SHD TV's come out early next year, so I head).

People think the others camera manufacturers are sleeping, but seriously they will not want to savage their pro markets, and will wait to see what Red will do, and tease and spoil and respond if they have to, don't give them the the time Jim ;) .

You know that I have insight into behind the scenes technology. I have waited for some associates to release revolutionary chip technologies for 20 years. I have waited for years for the scarlet, a really descent computer, descent SHD 3D TV, Optical fiber Bus, massive parallel processing, my revolutionary 3D technology (though somebody else seems to be doing that). And whatever else. Seems they are all coming next year, maybe even my third world computer and random access suitable reduced transistor memory. I expect to have a cheap 50-100Mb/s H264 pocket SHD camera in the next year or two. Said camera is for personal use, and will probably not be a patch on a 4K system from red, and anybody worth their salt will know that. So bring on the fixed scarlet ;) .


Thanks

Wayne.
 
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