Pro Res Suggestions

[Misha Engel]

The "naive demosaic" factor is 1/root(2) = ~71%, but better demosaics can achieve ~80% and that is measured on real-world data thus taking into account lens and OLPF.

Graeme

Yep 3840/5431 ~ 71%.

Good to hear that a way is found to achieve ~80%.

That is good news for the Gemini owners since 5120 x 0.8 = 4096, so we won't be able to see (resolution and color wise on a 4k resolution analyses chart, including RGB) the difference in 4k -DCI between a 5k Gemini and an 8k Monstro sources.
Since it is measured I hope it's not to much asked to give a link to the test procedure and the verifiable results.

 

[Alex Stolpakov]

Once more , time passes by , season is in the decline little by little . WHAT cameras did and will get the most time on set ? How can i answer which is the best prores capable camera is out there ? Maybe the best answer is red ( if it was possible to write all the flavours of prores like 444 4k or prores raw 4k ) Living in a world of scripted television.

 

[Misha Engel]

Once more , time passes by , season is in the decline little by little . WHAT cameras did and will get the most time on set ? How can i answer which is the best prores capable camera is out there ? Maybe the best answer is red ( if it was possible to write all the flavours of prores like 444 4k or prores raw 4k ) Living in a world of scripted television.

ARRI LF because it's ARRI, or a poor mans AMIRA a.k.a. BMD UMP 4.6k for the less fortunate (4608x2592, ProRes 444XQ, full sensor scan, upto 30 fps OR 3840x2160, ProRes 444XQ, full or windowed sensor scan, upto 40 fps or any other prores you can think of)

 

[Alex Stolpakov]

Never herd of rental having only ARRI LF , AMIRA or BMD UMP 4.6k . As matter of fact noon of the mentioned exist in rentals in our latitude and longitude. Mostly its classic , plus, minis, xt, epic mx, dragon, and new comer helium . Of course there are all smaller guys like sony as2 or bmd but they never go on a long form project.

 

[Misha Engel]

Never herd of rental having only ARRI LF , AMIRA or BMD UMP 4.6k . As matter of fact noon of the mentioned exist in rentals in our latitude and longitude. Mostly its classic , plus, minis, xt, epic mx, dragon, and new comer helium . Of course there are all smaller guys like sony as2 or bmd but they never go on a long form project.

ARRI ALEXA LF is the only ARRI camera that can do native ProRes at 4k, it has the same sensor as the other ARRI's that are for sale only bigger. (4448 x 3096).
The biggest drawback of this camera is it's price ~ $ 100.000 ready to shoot without lenses.

The Blackmagic Design Ultra Mini Pro 4.6k (BMD UMP 4.6k) can be seen as it's poor mans counter part (4608x2592) ~ $ 10.000 ready to shoot without lenses.

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

The Blackmagic Design Ultra Mini Pro 4.6k (BMD UMP 4.6k) can be seen as it's poor mans counter part (4608x2592) ~ $ 10.000 ready to shoot without lenses.

And there are also FS5, C200 and EVA.

 

[Misha Engel]

And there are also FS5, C200 and EVA.

All great Non ProRes cameras, kind of like that.

It would be great if all camera makers would stop using ProRes and would only use their RAW and open standards like Cineform with it's different very nice flavors.
Tim Cook would be so pissed off that he would sue them to death or buy them all.

 

[Alex Stolpakov]

And there are also FS5, C200 and EVA.
:undecided:All great Non ProRes cameras, kind of like that.

With Atomos they are. Small box with monitor 1500 nit around 1500 bucks and new flavour of prores . How small monitor can do it and big camera don't :confused1:

 

[Misha Engel]

With Atomos they are. Small box with monitor 1500 nit around 1500 bucks and new flavour of prores . How small monitor can do it and big camera don't :confused1:

I think that at the end the camera manufactures don't really like the Apple business model (technical it's no problem).
Lots of manufacturers feel that they are pushed to deliver some sort of ProRes(ARRI, BMD, RED, Kinefinity), luckily there are manufacurers that give Apple the finger (Sony, Pana, Canon).

ProRes is a reasonable codec but the business model sucks i.m.o., normally you can only export to ProRes on very expensive ,slow, consumer grade, all-in-one Apple computers or with very expensive software like Scratch (or you can build yourself a fast cheap Hackintosh). ProRes is mainly big in the US as is the lack of Net Neutrality.

 

[Alex Stolpakov]

I am not so sure why r3d so difrent from prores.

I think that at the end the camera manufactures don't really like the Apple business model (technical it's no problem).

Codec making any computer slow or codec working "only" on mac.

 

[Björn Benckert]

When you give them RAW material they are responsible for the end product, when you give them ProRes they can always blame you when something goes not the way they want.

When it would be just ProRes, they can convert it themselves.

Its not an easy task handling red material. For VFX to be done proper they need to be done / composited in a linear colorspace. So how to convert from Red raw via IPP2 to linear, then composite with CG and then flip back for final grade... Well that beats me. Im a VFX guy and been doing it for 30 years. So I think Im not alone thinking the red workflow is a bit difficult to get right.

So if you have the proper luts or described workflow for the above please share.

First grade then ad CG is not right, doing composites in anything but linear is possible but not optimal as the math used in transfer modes work linearly.

 

[Misha Engel]

Its not an easy task handling red material. For VFX to be done proper they need to be done / composited in a linear colorspace. So how to convert from Red raw via IPP2 to linear, then composite with CG and then flip back for final grade... Well that beats me. Im a VFX guy and been doing it for 30 years. So I think Im not alone thinking the red workflow is a bit difficult to get right.

So if you have the proper luts or described workflow for the above please share.

First grade then ad CG is not right, doing composites in anything but linear is possible but not optimal as the math used in transfer modes work linearly.

So the person who converts .R3D to ProRes(CineForm 16 bits gives you a lot more room to breath) is doing all the hard work and still gives you only max 12 bits color headroom for your 12 bits DCP output.

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

All great Non ProRes cameras, kind of like that.

Baked in compressed RGB codec is inferior to light compressed RAW.
Prores 444 in 4K and up makes zero sense compared to 3:1 RAW.

Which why Cupertino 2.0 went with Prores Raw trying to keep the hoarding paws on media production domain.

It would be great if all camera makers would stop using ProRes and would only use their RAW and open standards like Cineform with it's different very nice flavors.

Open standard for all camera makers is unlikely.

Raw implementation is progressing nicely.

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

So the person who converts .R3D to ProRes(CineForm 16 bits gives you a lot more room to breath) is doing all the hard work and still gives you only max 12 bits color headroom for your 12 bits DCP output.

Low compressed high colour depth codecs are not an issue Björn is talking about.
Transformations are.

There is no headroom advantage with higher bit depth after A/D.
The advantage is more dense material. Depending also on compression ratio.

Its not an easy task handling red material. For VFX to be done proper they need to be done / composited in a linear colorspace. So how to convert from Red raw via IPP2 to linear, then composite with CG and then flip back for final grade... Well that beats me. Im a VFX guy and been doing it for 30 years. So I think Im not alone thinking the red workflow is a bit difficult to get right.

So if you have the proper luts or described workflow for the above please share.

First grade then ad CG is not right, doing composites in anything but linear is possible but not optimal as the math used in transfer modes work linearly.

Proper LUTs for which transformation exactly ?

 

[Alex Stolpakov]

Baked in compressed RGB codec is inferior to light compressed RAW.

TWO out of three heliums finally got some love on set -- shooting prores only. Had several discussions over the last months mostly "no go" is 8k plus no realtime playback. Why not to have full range of rgb codecs in a good camera ?