Pro Res Suggestions

[Savannah Miller]

Naw, we can work with R3D fine on a fast system. I draw the line at 6K and 8K, because things start falling apart quickly there. But 4K & 5K Raw are fine. If we use ProRes 444, I prefer to make it myself just to make absolutely sure it's decoded and debayered correctly and the DP's original settings are retained. I'm generally not a fan of 422 or 422HQ when I can avoid it.

VFX workflows are more complex, but trust me, they're not using Raw there, either. I generally only see DPX and EXR being used there, but again, the settings have to be just right, and it's a good idea to give them a reasonable LUT as the final layer so they can see the composite in context. On tight schedules (and small budgets), ProRes 444 can work fine, and I've seen this done all the time for quick-turnaround TV projects.

For places I've worked at it's usually DPX that is either delivered from the client (when using something other than Prores) or for Prores shows, it's converted by us in-house directly using EDL and Camera Reels. Then it's done in/out in DPX and then those DPX files are converted back to Prores for deliverables.

EXR is typically used when shots are worked on by multiple people as an intermediate format for precomposites.

Prores 4:4:4 generally works fine with very few issues (vfx-wise). If cameras have some internal sharpening settings, maybe they can cause some artifacting during keying, but generally otherwise it's usually not a problem.

 

[Savannah Miller]

With VFX, as long as you return the files exactly as you got them minus requested changes, it's a lot easier to use Prores. With R3D there's a lot more points of failure and easier at that point for plates to be created by someone else. LUT and CDL help to see the intent of how the shot will be graded, but not 100% required. That's why the Prores workflow is just smoother on everyone and why the Alexa is so popular for TV. It just works very well.

The biggest "change" you'll notice is for complicated shots, or if laziness sets in, is that shots will sometimes come back with completely different grain as the shots are entirely denoised and then reapplied afterwords. Normally it's bad to do this but for green screen, it saves so much time.

 

[antoine carpentier]

The spots who you need VFX is not the majority. Prores “4K” 4444 is good enough for many alexa users so I’m sure it could works for red users too.

2K and transcoding are so 2015!

 

[Misha Engel]

The spots who you need VFX is not the majority. Prores “4K” 4444 is good enough for many alexa users so I’m sure it could works for red users too.

2K and transcoding are so 2015!

When upscaled ProRes 4k 4444 from an Alexa is good enough Full-HD 1080p and DCI-2k are good enough.

In a perfect world with a bayer sensor you will need atleast twice the amount of pixels to convert it to a RGB matrix.
With UHD this means (3840 x sqrt(2)) x (2160 x sqrt(2)) = 5431 x 3055 bayer pixels.
Since we don't live in a perfect world (OLPF, Lens, etc...) it will be more something like (3840x1.5) x (2160x1.5) = 5760 x 3240 bayer pixels.

At the moment the only ARRI camera that can do this doesn't have ProRes.

I wonder if there are already camera's that can do this...

 

[Alex Stolpakov]

In a perfect world

In a real world nobody cares about perfect world . AND once more everybody speaking about camera for shooting (before production) in terms of postproduction. FIRMWARE with options of debayred and downsamplled raw is something epicX should of had, DSMC2 can now have.

 

[Misha Engel]

In a real world nobody cares about perfect world . AND once more everybody speaking about camera for shooting (before production) in terms of postproduction. FIRMWARE with options of debayred and downsamplled raw is something epicX should of had, DSMC2 can now have.

In a perfect world means best case theoretical scenario. The reality is worse.
4k 4444 ProRes from an Alexa is upscaled from a lower resolution.

 

[Alex Stolpakov]

In a perfect world means best case theoretical scenario. The reality is worse.
4k 4444 ProRes from an Alexa is upscaled from a lower resolution.

IN real world there is hear say in terms of camera choosing . How many productions come to pixel peep before shooting in prep --- just about non. Best case scenario they check lenses or other physical equipment. In times of regular alexa you know how many times I herd that it is better for green screen than red , even if many heavy VFX movies were using red. So name plays a big role in camera cost, longevity, or usage.

 

[Alex Stolpakov]

Alexa became so strong because of ease of post and not ability to hold highlights so well.
Streamlined DSMC2 can get a lot of bonuses from having a new firmware with ability to have downsampelled red raw , all flavours of prores or g-d forbid apple raw.
Its good to have a vision but also good to give a posibility to stay on top what is current need from the camera.

 

[Misha Engel]

Hence "When upscaled ProRes 4k 4444 from an Alexa is good enough Full-HD 1080p and DCI-2k are good enough."

 

[Alex Stolpakov]

Hence "When upscaled ProRes 4k 4444 from an Alexa is good enough Full-HD 1080p and DCI-2k are good enough."

Hence what are sugetions for ProRes? Probably the best answer is ProRed ... Codec light on a computer and holding strong in post ...
While it was a hint before that never came true (red ray), now please sweeten the pill of changing bodies (additional cost) with a new firmware with established codecs -- red raw All sizes , prores All flavours.
So much talked about cameras as cars bought from dealer, and going down in price as you leave the store. But think if you buy a collective edition, which you can't get easily in hands , only thru costly rental. That will be your camera becoming with a new firmware.

 

[Sabovic Adis]

Hence what are sugetions for ProRes? Probably the best answer is ProRed ... Codec light on a computer and holding strong in post ...

We already have that, it's called R3D.

While it was a hint before that never came true (red ray), now please sweeten the pill of changing bodies (additional cost) with a new firmware with established codecs -- red raw All sizes , prores All flavours.

What about licensing?
Are you willing to pay for that?

So much talked about cameras as cars bought from dealer, and going down in price as you leave the store.

Everything 2nd hand loses it's value.

But think if you buy a collective edition, which you can't get easily in hands , only thru costly rental. That will be your camera becoming with a new firmware.

Only snobs/idiots buy/rent things they don't really need, don't know what they're meant for, don't know how to use them properly, and they even brag about how good they have it.
Bragging - that's how we spot them.

 

[Misha Engel]

Hence what are sugetions for ProRes? Probably the best answer is ProRed ... Codec light on a computer and holding strong in post ...
While it was a hint before that never came true (red ray), now please sweeten the pill of changing bodies (additional cost) with a new firmware with established codecs -- red raw All sizes , prores All flavours.
So much talked about cameras as cars bought from dealer, and going down in price as you leave the store. But think if you buy a collective edition, which you can't get easily in hands , only thru costly rental. That will be your camera becoming with a new firmware.

How many pixels does the BAYER sensor of an Alexa have?
How many BAYER pixel do you need to get a 4k or UHD RGB matrix?

 

[antoine carpentier]

We all know that's Alexa don't do a true 4K pictures. But for many DPs, productions, viewers it's not a problem. Anyway both cameras are great and it's not the point here. It's a thread for ProRes suggestions to improve our red cameras, and technically there is no 4K 4444 options yet, let's hope that could be change in the futur for people (like me) who could be very satisfy with it.

 

[Alex Stolpakov]

We already have that, it's called R3D.

No we don't. R3D is not light on your computer.

What about licensing?
Are you willing to pay for that?

We already payed.

Everything 2nd hand loses it's value.

Not everything. You are thinking about your camera as cellphone. Think of it as professional equipment made in small quantities.

Only snobs/idiots buy/rent things they don't really need, don't know what they're meant for, don't know how to use them properly, and they even brag about how good they have it.
Bragging - that's how we spot them.

Only a snoob calls somebody an idiot without prior knowledge of him.

 

[Alex Stolpakov]

If somebody don't remember, think of 9-10 years back and how many days you needed to get your money back from rental of red one. THAT was a real success of 4K world. Liquidity and demand.

 

[Sabovic Adis]

No we don't.

That's to bad. I mean for you, who don't have it.

R3D is not light on your computer.

Of course it is.
(And please stop speaking for me, that's not good for you.)

We already payed.

Well, use it then!

Not everything.

Like virginity?

You are thinking about your camera as cellphone.

What "my camera"? I don't even have a camera...and cellphones can't think.

Think of it as professional equipment made in small quantities.

How small you want it?

Only a snoob calls somebody an idiot without prior knowledge of him.

What's a snoob, dude?

 

[Alex Stolpakov]

That's to bad. I mean for you, who don't have it.
Of course it is.
(And please stop speaking for me, that's not good for you.)
Well, use it then!
Like virginity?
What "my camera"? I don't even have a camera...and cellphones can't think.
How small you want it?
What's a snoob, dude?

Play with meaning , not with words. YOU is hypothetical. If anybody is a second son does it make his mother second hand? --- Please make relevant examples.

 

[Sabovic Adis]

Play with meaning , not with words. YOU is hypothetical. If anybody is a second son does it make his mother second hand? --- Please make relevant examples.

That's why you're only hypothetically right.

Of two sons, which one is fake?

 

[Alex Stolpakov]

That's why you're only hypothetically right.

Of two sons, which one is fake?

Hypotheticals are possible situations, statements or questions about something imaginary rather than something real. Hypotheticals can deal with the concept of "what if?"'.
Hypotheticals can be important because they provide a means for understanding what we would do if the world was different. Although this may assist our understanding of risk, and help us plan and create a new and better future, hypotheticals also help us understand the past, and why things happened or how things work.
Mother-son relationship as much as virginity is irrelevant in terms of Having ProRes in camera.
You is not personal ...

 

[Sabovic Adis]

Hypotheticals are possible situations, statements or questions about something imaginary rather than something real. Hypotheticals can deal with the concept of "what if?"'.
Hypotheticals can be important because they provide a means for understanding what we would do if the world was different. Although this may assist our understanding of risk, and help us plan and create a new and better future, hypotheticals also help us understand the past, and why things happened or how things work.
Mother-son relationship as much as virginity is irrelevant in terms of Having ProRes in camera.
You is not personal ...

Ok.
Hypothetically speaking, what if you persuaded Apple to integrate RED DSMC around their precious ProRes RAW codec instead? To you, the consumer, there would be no difference anyways. Right?