Picture of a Weapon

[Scott Crawley]

We are really off topic.

We need a new Picture of a Weapon!!

:drool5:

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

I'm the first person to say that the future of stills and motion is LARGER sensors.

If speaking about high-end motion imaging - definitely agree (as in options, not simply replacements), so in the context of Red's choice of focus the decision is understandable.



On a different note, however:

http://www.amazon.com/Sony-DSCRX10-Cybershot-Digital-Camera/dp/B00FRHTSMW

24-200 f2.8.

Just sayin'....






Just a slight off topic drift to avoid misinterpretations.

 

[David Battistella]

I was one of those people who always thought 3k Scarlet was a "cute" idea, but in the end a 4k version in one form factor was even better idea on many levels.

Everyone had a boner for these things but what did the digital bolex do?

I love 16mm and it made sense alongside 35mm. But the simple fact now is that in a configuration just a bit bigger than a DvX 100a we are capturing 6k, high speed off speed timelapse, high compression low compression, windowed sensor, full sensor etc etc.

its better now now than it's ever been and in not interested in going back or a pocket camera. But that's just me.

battistella

someone is going to mention "all that great S16 glass" which belongs right on 16mm film cameras.

 

[Glen Powell]

**Sigh***

I'm sorry that my smart ass comment:

Why is this not uploaded in 4K?

Maybe Weapon is only a 1080p Alexa Killer... Hmm?

Opened up an actual new line of speculation and commentary... This is a cinema camera, WPN will be the next progression of that theme. There is no going back.

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

but what did the digital bolex do?

Chased past and assumed that retro hipsta rollin' is da shit.


: )

 

[Donald MJ Anderson]

As with a lot of ideas floated here, many will not like a given idea until it is a RED product.

Then the likes will fall like rain.

 

[Glen Powell]

Then the likes will fall like rain.

That put a smile on my face.

 

[Jake Wilganowski]

Thought someone already confirmed Shane's thing has to do with the c300mk2, not Red weapon, no?

 

[Scott Crawley]

I thought I saw something about that as well, though it didn't seem to be a solid confirmation of any kind.

It would make sense though.

Thought someone already confirmed Shane's thing has to do with the c300mk2, not Red weapon, no?

 

[Glen Powell]

Thought someone already confirmed Shane's thing has to do with the c300mk2, not Red weapon, no?

I thought I saw something about that as well, though it didn't seem to be a solid confirmation of any kind.

It would make sense though.

I remember reading that here as well - but if you look closely at the promo you can see what appear to be some of the leaked photos of WPN on monitors in the BG.

Who knows?

 

[David Battistella]

As with a lot of ideas floated here, many will not like a given idea until it is a RED product.

Then the likes will fall like rain.

not assuming it was aimed at me but....


The 3k scarlet was at least a prototype red product even shot by ketch Rossi or Joseph Hutson maybe. I always figured once you have 4 k and 1080 was not good enough then what was the point of going backward?

 

[Brian Boyer]

Thought someone already confirmed Shane's thing has to do with the c300mk2, not Red weapon, no?

I thought I saw something about that as well, though it didn't seem to be a solid confirmation of any kind.

It would make sense though.

I remember reading that here as well - but if you look closely at the promo you can see what appear to be some of the leaked photos of WPN on monitors in the BG.

Who knows?

Anything not at least partially related to Weapon would be a terrible bait and switch, seeing how the screen shows Phil Holland's comp of leaked Weapon images with "RED WEAPON" written across the top.

I'm pretty confident it's RED related. I think the speculation about Canon came from Shane's perceived (by some) Canon bias. If he had one, he's certainly warmed up to RED in the last few months, judging by his tweets.

 

[Jake Wilganowski]

OK now I'm excited

 

[Phil Holland]

Anything not at least partially related to Weapon would be a terrible bait and switch, seeing how the screen shows Phil Holland's comp of leaked Weapon images with "RED WEAPON" written across the top.

I'm pretty confident it's RED related. I think the speculation about Canon came from Shane's perceived (by some) Canon bias. If he had one, he's certainly warmed up to RED in the last few months, judging by his tweets.

I have no idea what Shane's teaser is about, but I do wonder if it has anything to do with some insight about the current commercial he is shooting on Dragon perhaps?

Alternative formulation:

There are still people who would find VERY useful a very compact high picture quality camera with practical single operator focus pulling in real life situations, minimally compressed raw onto off the shelf memory cards, more optimized for run n gun, able to shoot wide open more often without razor thin DOF, camera being a proper successor for S16 format where resolution is secondary to other factors, not having to watch over a $30K bag/case with every creative whim, carrying another bag/case for glass, still achieving resolution which matches Alexa, not being a problem for many Oscar nominees/winners.

That is your valorization.

I agree it "would" be useful, specifically for S16 production. However, Red is not in this market though they do have a rather proper windowed resolution mode these days for S16 and a bit larger shooting. Also, there are plenty of people who self-operate with Red cameras in the wild.

If you remember the history of Scarlet-X's launch there was competition and Scarlet coming to the market at that price point was very, very smart. Based on the staggered release of various 2K boutique cameras and various DSLR with 1080p or 4K capability as well as specifically the C series. The price to performance ratio on Scarlet and now Scarlet Dragon even makes more sense.

And remember right at that specific moment there was nothing close to Scarlet specs and in some ways for standard shooting did a fair bit more than the other cameras out there at an appealing price.

It's not really my valorization, but more an observation of a very smart move.

 

[Joe Walker]

Am I reading between the lines correctly that Weapon is mostly just a body upgrade and such, that the sensor will still be the Dragon sensor?

 

[Terry VerHaar]

Am I reading between the lines correctly that Weapon is mostly just a body upgrade and such, that the sensor will still be the Dragon sensor?

I believe that is basically correct; same sensor. It is possible, perhaps even likely, that some boards will be upgraded as well.

 

[Donald MJ Anderson]

I believe that is basically correct; same sensor. It is possible, perhaps even likely, that some boards will be upgraded as well.

So the EPIC DRAGON becomes the WPN DRAGON?

In theory Dragon branding will still be there as the Mysterium branding was visible on Epics?

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

Having no interest of yanking the thread off topic:

I agree it "would" be useful, specifically for S16 production. However, Red is not in this market though they do have a rather proper windowed resolution mode these days for S16 and a bit larger shooting.

Yes, that is clear.

Also, there are plenty of people who self-operate with Red cameras in the wild.

Self/solo operating in general is not an issue. 16 mm format/lens+camera is a much more practical and efficient for many usages plus more inconspicuous and less intimidating for people.

If you remember the history of Scarlet-X's launch there was competition and Scarlet coming to the market at that price point was very, very smart. Based on the staggered release of various 2K boutique cameras and various DSLR with 1080p or 4K capability as well as specifically the C series. The price to performance ratio on Scarlet and now Scarlet Dragon even makes more sense.

Okay, but that doesn't have anything to do with 16 mm film replacement camera.
Different approach, different visual aesthetics.

Acquiring 35 mm one to shoot 16 mm means paying, lugging and watching over more than you need for the specific purpose. This way 1/4th of processing power and storage space are needed and 3K image holds up nicely on the big screen. Not expecting Red to change their mind but one tool does not cover all routes, even though Red's modular concept is one of the most - if not the most - versatile one.

And remember right at that specific moment there was nothing close to Scarlet specs and in some ways for standard shooting did a fair bit more than the other cameras out there at an appealing price.

Again, not related to Scarlet S35.

There is nothing as serious as 3K 16 bit raw motion imaging camera in 16 mm realm.
Although $3K route was unnecessary IMO.

It's not really my valorization, but more an observation of a very smart move.

That is again your valorization, based on what you personally define as "smart" and the context you choose to focus on. You haven't seen the alternative outcome of 16 mm model coming to market, nor the option of 16 mm and S35 model coexisting. There may be "smart" and "smarter" as well, but that again doesn't mean much all by itself and if seen strictly from one perspective.

From a perspective of current trend in image acquisition, affected by manufacturer's specs race, 16mm is often perceived as "not good enough", mostly due to the legacy of initial limitations of digital in its teething phase, while technology has evolved significantly. Sony went with 20 MP 1" branded S16 sensor route, implemented in its consumer and prosumer codec-limited cameras, differentiating those tools from its 2/3" broadcast division, while Red chose 35 mm as its base format. Other manufacturers do not seem to posses the required sensor quality level and/or other necessary requirements.

From a perspective of today's society there is a tendency of running towards constant increase.
So one may end up needing 96000 cores to be able to fluidly observe the texture of mosquito's eyelashes while dealing with dramaturgy of human relations.

From a Nature's perspective evolution involves diversity and optimization.

From a cinematographer's perspective picture properties effect aesthetics, and shooting style and feel are an important factor, while needs tend to differ.

From a storytelling perspective, 16 mm aesthetic and shooting approach are currently being disregarded in a digital realm by serious camera manufacturers, everything chasing the same/similar look, while great technology is just sitting there, capable to provide one more creative option, finally allowing the creation of a very compact, very high quality and very practical professional motion imaging camera. Superior for sports, many types of run 'n gun, shooting real unpredictable and dynamic life unfolding...and 3D.

I understand your context and point though, and again, Red's targeted market and approach are understandable as well, when many things are taken into consideration.

 

[Brian Boyer]

Self/solo operating in general is not an issue. 16 mm format/lens+camera is a much more practical and efficient for many usages plus more inconspicuous and less intimidating for people.

Okay, but that doesn't have anything to do with 16 mm film replacement camera.
Different approach, different visual aesthetics.

Acquiring 35 mm one to shoot 16 mm means paying, lugging and watching over more than you need for the specific purpose. This way 1/4th of processing power and storage space are needed and 3K image holds up nicely on the big screen. Not expecting Red to change their mind but one tool does not cover all routes, even though Red's modular concept is one of the most - if not the most - versatile one.

Again, not related to Scarlet S35.

There is nothing as serious as 3K 16 bit raw motion imaging camera in 16 mm realm.
Although $3K route was unnecessary IMO.

That is again your valorization, based on what you personally define as "smart" and the context you choose to focus on. You haven't seen the alternative outcome of 16 mm model coming to market, nor the option of 16 mm and S35 model coexisting. There may be "smart" and "smarter" as well, but that again doesn't mean much all by itself and if seen strictly from one perspective.

From a perspective of current trend in image acquisition, affected by manufacturer's specs race, 16mm is often perceived as "not good enough", mostly due to the legacy of initial limitations of digital in its teething phase, while technology has evolved significantly. Sony went with 20 MP 1" branded S16 sensor route, implemented in its consumer and prosumer codec-limited cameras, differentiating those tools from its 2/3" broadcast division, while Red chose 35 mm as its base format. Other manufacturers do not seem to posses the required sensor quality level and/or other necessary requirements.

From a perspective of today's society there is a tendency of running towards constant increase.
So one may end up needing 96000 cores to be able to fluidly observe the texture of mosquito's eyelashes while dealing with dramaturgy of human relations.

From a Nature's perspective evolution involves diversity and optimization.

From a cinematographer's perspective picture properties effect aesthetics, and shooting style and feel are an important factor, while needs tend to differ.

From a storytelling perspective, 16 mm aesthetic and shooting approach are currently being disregarded in a digital realm by serious camera manufacturers, everything chasing the same/similar look, while great technology is just sitting there, capable to provide one more creative option, finally allowing the creation of a very compact, very high quality and very practical professional motion imaging camera. Superior for sports, many types of run 'n gun, shooting real unpredictable and dynamic life unfolding...and 3D.

I understand your context and point though, and again, Red's targeted market and approach are understandable as well, when many things are taken into consideration.

I have no real stake in this either way but wouldn't it be worth examining S16 from a broader perspective? Keep in mind I'm posing questions and not trying to defend one position over the other.

It seems to me the pertinent question might be, of all the projects ever shot on S16, how many were because it best suited the aesthetics of the project versus being done as a cost-saving compromise? How many would've shot S35 if budgets and other circumstances would've allowed for it?

I'm by no means an expert on the subject but my impression of S16 was it provided a cheaper entry into high quality filmmaking. By virtue of simply being, of course it has its own aesthetic and associated market for lenses and accessories. Practically every format does. But, how many people are upset that Sony isn't still churning out Hi-8 cameras?

S16 offered a cost-effective compromise in the analog world that's no longer necessary in the digital realm. I bought a new Sony NEX-3N with a roughly S35 sized sensor with a lens for under $300. I understand it doesn't perform at the level you're talking about but my point is S35 has probably always been the more preferred format.

If S16 was primarily only ever a (beautiful, practical and useful) compromise versus S35 to most people, wanting the major camera manufacturers to fully commit to that format seems like a big ask.

It might not be worth the effort from a business sense because the majority of people already decided they would've preferred to shoot S35 a long time ago.

 

[Dan Rizzuto]

I should have looked more into RED before I bought. I've only owned my camera for 6 months and now to keep up to date i'm going to be spending what I could have just bought an Alexa for. Not to mention all the issues I had when buying in the first place. I understand the need for progressive technology in order to stay competitive...but who is RED competing with? Not Arri. They are in a league of their own. So why not make the upgrade prices a little more fair. Now knowing that the mini mags are a better option for dragon cameras, why was i not told this when i bought? Why did my rep not explain this? It's these little things that start to build up. Just knowing that for what i would have to pay to upgrade my Epic Dragon to weapon I could have bought an Alexa just makes me sad. I guess If i had my camera a little longer and had it fully paid back then an upgrade wouldn't be such a big deal. (sorry for the vented, just feeling frustrated)