Phil's NAB Journal 2013

[Bill Martz]

Hello Phil

My question is, If I shoot at 4K or 5K instead of 6K, will I still have an ISO 2000 rated sensor (Will I create more noise by shooting with a smaller section of the Dragon sensor)?

 

[Björn Benckert]

Hello Phil

My question is, If I shoot at 4K or 5K instead of 6K, will I still have an ISO 2000 rated sensor (Will I create more noise by shooting with a smaller section of the Dragon sensor)?

You have 2000iso but as you zoom into the picture when going 4k you enlarge your noise 30% and you also loose quite a bit of lens resolution. So basically your image is a center crop of your 6k image.

"rating iso" on digital cameras is a bit difficult as it basically only tells you what luminance / brightness your capture is elevated to. So the dragon being a "2000iso sensor" only means that when shooting at 2000 iso your image is per pixel about as good as the MX at 800 iso. It's probably also so that the dragon with the new tech is better than the MX and has less noise per pixel and it has more pixels which helps keeping noise down. So my guess is that the 2000 iso on dragon will probably be even cleaner than 800 iso on MX. But thats me guessing, we are still waiting for proper test footage from the dragon, until then we can only speculate, but it's probably fair to believe that the dragon image will be far better than the MX in all ways thinkable.

The 800 iso of the MX, which is quite high already is very clean even down to pretty low light levels, the dragon with more range and also more than twice the iso will make huge difference.

 

[Bill Martz]

Thank you Björn

 

[Phil Holland]

Thanks Phil. Wow I would not have imagined carrying around 4 lenses but I like the shots of the lenses near the end. Thought they were 1.2s

Heh. I had the 24mm f/1.4L and a couple other things in the bag with me. I think it came out to 25-30lbs. Carried it on me for both days. I've got the bruises to show it!

So Phil, what is Skully going to get? Did you make a choice yet?

Skully has been with me through thick and thin. We'll have to talk it out over a beer perhaps.

In reality all 3 upgrade paths are really good options. A million thoughts buzz in my head based on conversations with Red owners at NAB and on Reduser.


Option #1 - Scarlet-X to Epic-X

$9500 and you get a full blown Epic-X. You get that slightly larger than S35 sensor and the ability to record at much higher frame rates at 5K and every other supported resolution. I feel this is a great option for those who feel the hunger for those higher speed frame rates and increased resolution of the full sensor for standard production shooting situations. Great for a nice 4K finish.

Option #2 - Scarlet-X to Scarlet Dragon

$9500 and you get access to the new Dragon sensor and tech. A bit more sensitivity and provides a cleaner image at those higher ISO ratings. It's 5K as well, however, it's 5K smashed into a 3-perf S35 sensor size and shoots up to 60fps. This is pretty tremendous as well. You get essentially twice the frame rates of the current Scarlet-X at 4K at 5K resolution with a new sensor. Which is interesting, because at 4K we might see something like 72fps and so forth down the windowed resolutions. That 60fps capability is neato too. You'll be able to get some nice overcranked 5K on projects with a 24, 25, and 30fps timebase. However, you'll also be able to shoot with it on HFR projects that capture at 48 and 60fps. Pretty nice and also good for a 4K finish.


Option #3 - Scarlet-X to Epic Dragon

$19,000 and you get the Dragon sensor and the ability to shoot up to 100fps at 6K. 6K is an interesting format and I think a lot of folks are going to want to utilize it. 5K is again that 3-perf S35 size and you'll have up to 120fps. Which means you can overcrank on 24, 25, 30fps as well as HFR productions at 48 and 60fps timebases. Pretty much like the current Epic but with new tech and more resolution to explore and utilize. That larger sensor can also be used for Look Around, which is really cool and useful for a variety of shooting scenerios. As a format 6K Dragon is getting very close to a VistaVision-esque sized frame. As a format, many of "us" find that appealing. With Dragon 5K and 6K it's almost like having two cameras in one so that extra moolah really might be worth it. And obviously suitable for a 4K finish.


To me, these options are all really seductive. I can't imagine what's going through Scarlet owner's minds right now. However, one unifying feature stands out. All upgrade paths are designed to provide a beautiful 4K delivery. The current reel running at Red's booth right now and damn near any feature shot on Red showcases a lot of quality 4K visuals. You'll be able to do that with any of these options. So really it's going to come down to preference and what is desired from the shooter.

For myself? Toughie. However, I specialize in high resolution capture and love (not a healthy love, but dirty love) both S35 and VistaVision as formats. At one point in my life I had access to and shot on a Fries VistaVision camera and I yearn to have that format back in my life some nonsensical reason. So I have a feeling that Epic Dragon is the right choice for me. I fully intend on shoot at both 6K and 5K however.

I will say, and I've pretty much been saying this all along. Many productions are going to capture at 5K and focus on a 4K delivery for the next several years. So that puts the first two options extremely viable and useful for damn near everything.

It's a tough choice and the good news is they are all good options.

 

[soren k jensen]

Just to get this straight, Phil, the quote about the Motion Mount: " It provides a 10 stop range overall with the ability to dial in the amount ND you would like as well" is about the range of ND dimming, NOT resulting in a reduced DR on the sensor, right?

 

[Zul Y]

And also what Meizler is looking like today:

What interface plate is that? What is it attached to and how is it connected to the camera?

 

[Phil Holland]

Just to get this straight, Phil, the quote about the Motion Mount: " It provides a 10 stop range overall with the ability to dial in the amount ND you would like as well" is about the range of ND dimming, NOT resulting in a reduced DR on the sensor, right?

Correct. Adding the filter itself is somewhere around a .3 or .4 ND, which is around a 1 stop ND right away. It goes up to essentially an ND 3.0, which is 10 stops. You'll be able to dial in precise adjustments if you need something like a 3.2 stop ND correction for your desired exposure. At the show Bob and Justin had it configured to the DSMC Side Handle and using the + and - rocker had it increasing or decreasing the ND. Pretty slick.

I asked about a million questions about the Motion Mount, but keep in mind it's still under development.

I'll poison your mind with this as I've seen some folks discussing this elsewhere on Reduser. On set I've noticed some DPs like to leave on a .3 ND if they know they are using ND filtration at all to help have a consistent look. I think for pure low light shooting it'll be nice to have a "naked" PL mount, but I also can imagine about 1,000 situations where having a quickly adjustable on camera ND at this level of precision would be highly desirable. The nature/wildlife shooters are going to freak out about this. Not to mention anybody who shoots sports or automotive related material.

It's certainly a good thing. And remember, if it's not for you, ND filtration via screw on or matte box is likely still going to be used for the next decade

 

[Phil Holland]

What interface plate is that? What is it attached to and how is it connected to the camera?

If you are referring to what is behind and underneath the camera, that's the newest Meizler Module. The bit with the accessory/V-Lock is the Meizler-To-Redmote Dock. It's attached to the body via the 150mm SWAT Rail and DSMC Tactical Right Z Adapter.

It's actually really cool to see Meizler up and running with the new motors. Wireless video out, FIZ, and Timecode are going to save time during a day on set. And you won't be tripping over your HD-SDI back to video village.

 

[Elliott Balsley]

I missed the VESA mount while I was there. Can anyone share some more details on that? From Phil's picture, it looks like it has a built-in 5/8" receiver and a 100mm VESA plate. What else is in there?

 

[Zul Y]

Thanks Phil. Yea the Meizler-RedMote dock. Any idea if the port and cable is only for charging the RedMote or is it for hardwire communication as well?

 

[Phil Holland]

I missed the VESA mount while I was there.

I'm pretty confident if I didn't look up and look at the back of that monitor and then go "gum shoeing" I wouldn't have learned as much as I did. I know it's currently being used on a production and it was birthed from that same desire to be super portable without ripping things apart. Pretty much the fires of which Meizler was born out of. All I was told was it was holding the A/C power for the monitor and AKS and had those mounting points so you can keep everything together.

I talked to Nate about it and discussed some observations, but really what it came down to was adjust those dog bones and place the AKS to the side and you can dump that whole rig in a case or just grab it by the handle and move it around set.

Seemingly the whole deal behind Meizler and other incoming products is to help productions become more efficient. Wireless, lightweight, new designs, and new modular concepts seem to be the recurring theme. At least from what I'm looking at.

Thanks Phil. Yea the Meizler-RedMote dock. Any idea if the port and cable is only for charging the RedMote or is it for hardwire communication as well?

We talked charging and docked communication functions, just like the back of the camera's brain. Likely designed due to losing the brain's rear connection point when Meizler is installed as there is a V-mount plate there now.

Between the RedSync app and the Redmote there's a few ways to adjust the camera's settings without touching it. Lot's of uses for this. On the jib, crane, in some crazy housing, or even while mounted on a car.

 

[Will Keir]

So is it safe to say we are getting a more sensitive low light sensor with Dragon? More stops of light, maybe less need for high speed lenses?

You have 2000iso but as you zoom into the picture when going 4k you enlarge your noise 30% and you also loose quite a bit of lens resolution. So basically your image is a center crop of your 6k image.

"rating iso" on digital cameras is a bit difficult as it basically only tells you what luminance / brightness your capture is elevated to. So the dragon being a "2000iso sensor" only means that when shooting at 2000 iso your image is per pixel about as good as the MX at 800 iso. It's probably also so that the dragon with the new tech is better than the MX and has less noise per pixel and it has more pixels which helps keeping noise down. So my guess is that the 2000 iso on dragon will probably be even cleaner than 800 iso on MX. But thats me guessing, we are still waiting for proper test footage from the dragon, until then we can only speculate, but it's probably fair to believe that the dragon image will be far better than the MX in all ways thinkable.

The 800 iso of the MX, which is quite high already is very clean even down to pretty low light levels, the dragon with more range and also more than twice the iso will make huge difference.

 

[Ketch Rossi]

Technically speaking and only limited to the light acquisition part of the image, yes, but then all stops there, as the capabilities of a High Speed lens goes far beyond light, and I could never do without it's capabilities especially the look below T1.5 on longer focal.

 

[Paul S.]

So is it safe to say we are getting a more sensitive low light sensor with Dragon? More stops of light, maybe less need for high speed lenses?

The way I'm looking at it is that a good chunk of the added low light performance will just compensate for the stop you lose with the Motion Mount - which is an awesome addition - and that low light performance is an extra bit of back up you keep in reserve for certain conditions when you'd take that mount off. But you could equally think of it the other way and only use the Motion Mount for special occasions.

 

[Phil Holland]

So is it safe to say we are getting a more sensitive low light sensor with Dragon? More stops of light, maybe less need for high speed lenses?

Ketch and Paul have pretty good points. Straight out of the box Dragon is going to provide fairly clean ISO 2000 performance (I'm betting ISO 3200 ain't gonna be too shabby either). The Motion Mount does lose 1 to 1.5 stops right when you put it on, however, it is an optional device. So keep that in mind if you've got some low light stuff to shoot.

In terms of fast glass, light has also been one of the deciding factors. The bigger one of me though is what is in and out of focus in a shot. I like shooting at T1.8 for instance because the depth of field it provides and where the focus on my point of interest lands.

I do think a lot of folks shooting with T2.8 and T2.9 glass will be happy with the new and improved low light performance. Personally most glass that interests me is in the T1.3-T2.1 maximum aperture range. That's just my preference though.

 

[Steven-Marc C.]

Personally most glass that interests me is in the T1.3-T2.1 maximum aperture range. That's just my preference though.

With that in mind, which glass would you consider using for 6K on a personal project ?

 

[Christopher Barrett]

Phil, this is Sick. Really awesome of you to bring it to the masses. Great meeting you and trying to philosophize visualizations over loud music. I just may have to get to more NABs in the future.

Cheers,
CB

 

[Chad Bonanno]

Wow Phil! nailed it! thanks for posting this !

 

[Phil Holland]

With that in mind, which glass would you consider using for 6K on a personal project ?

Tough decision these days! There's actually a good chunk of FF35 designed glass out there, not to mention that some quality S35 glass will cover Dragon too. For me personally I have a rather full set of FF35/S35 still glass from 11-600mm that I've modded for cine use one way or another. But those are all EF mount and suffer from the design issues that make still glass not so cine-friendly.

I would recommend looking into those Schneider Xenon FF-Primes if you are looking to move up to cine style glass at an attractive price. Minimal breathing, FF35 coverage, and no image shift; available before the year is out with more focal lengths on the way. Built solid and feels like cinema glass.

The Canon CN-E and Zeiss CP.2 aren't bad choices either if you need the speed or a fuller set of lengths but have a bit more play an exhibit a bit of image shift depending on which focal length you use. They are still based on still designs. Specifically the Zeiss CP.2 15mm and 135mm are killer lenses. Canon really needs to get that 35mm lens out. I don't know what's up with that.

There were a couple companies offering "cine-mods" at NAB as well. Basically you either send them your lens or purchase it through them and they rehouse them. And that's pretty much all they do. I actually thought the housing work looked good, but I made the guy at Cinematics show me all the lenses in their acrylic case and they all had a heck of a lot of play in them as well as shift. Feels like they just attached the housing. So that's a straight rehousing and not something in the realm of quality of say the Duclos 11-16mm rehousing, which solves some of the issues with that stock lens. So be aware of that. It gets you cine-gearing and the housing at an attractive price, but it's not really what I would consider cinema minded mechanics.

I've always liked the feel of the Leica R lenses with the cine-mods, I use a couple pretty often and I love that look. Certain lengths again suffer from not being designed for cinema use.

If we're talking way into the future, I'm real curious about the Zunow glass, which price-wise is also in the Schneider FF-Prime arena. However, right now those Zunow lenses are unicorns and there's a ton of work to be done on tightening the mechanical design and optical movement within the cam.

So I guess the short answer would be Schneider Xenon-FF Primes, then adding some Zeiss CP.2 lenses to flesh out the set for the time being. The Canon's don't have a PL option, which saddens me because I like some of those lenses. I'd also look into a cine-modded Leica R set as well.

Phil, this is Sick. Really awesome of you to bring it to the masses. Great meeting you and trying to philosophize visualizations over loud music. I just may have to get to more NABs in the future.

Thanks Christopher. It was good talking to you at the opening party. Hanging with you, Paul, Jeff, and getting to meet several other Redusers like Joseph and Rick was a big highlight for me. Nice to run into papa Tonaci, Justin, and reunite with Big Lu.

One day we'll have to have to have that drink and shoot the breeze about composition and color theory.

 

[Björn Benckert]

Technically speaking and only limited to the light acquisition part of the image, yes, but then all stops there, as the capabilities of a High Speed lens goes far beyond light, and I could never do without it's capabilities especially the look below T1.5 on longer focal.

Agree on that,
And enough light is never enough... lol I mean even 2000 iso is just the same amount of light per frame as 800 when shooting 75 instead of 25fps... So it's a bit the same as for render power, you double it and then you add more samples and everything is back to normal... And the effect of the DOF, as Ketch says is just as wanted as the actual lowlight preformance of a fast lens... Even though the dragon with its larger format is creating a shorter DOF, shooting wide open on the large dragon sensor will be what differentiate it the most from the rest, especially when going anamorphic, That is what will make the dragon look... super epic, not only on the big screen, it will show huge difference even on the smallest vimeo files.

We will for sure use 6k even when making small internet movies. If you have a large format still camera and a 2/3's one then you know the difference, even when looking at the pix on small proxy sized images.