Panavision 8K Camera

[Michael J Brennan]

Whatever work Panavision have done to put their brush strokes on Red hardware, surely it will it have to be retweaked whenever Red change sensor output characteristics?

Unless Red or Panavision reveal more, brand loyalists will continue the discourse based on what so far, I'll characterise as Panavision PR.


Mike Brennan

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

I already touched on this (either in here or the recon thread), but I think Graeme is (rightfully) more focused on accuracy/mathematical correctness, rather than a semi-subjective "look" (under the presumption that the look gets created off the raws in the grade anyway). Whereas LI, who's traditionally a post outlet, knows that 99.9% of the time people want a traditionally "film look" (in both colour and contrast), so it makes sense to have that out of the gate.

You are mistaken in both cases.

Neither of the examples you mention can be properly achieved without the usage of both aspects of the mind.

There is no single "film look" to have out of the gate. Both cases include creative decision on aesthetic, which in a color science realm is heavy juggling between what an eye sees, heart wants and N interdependent technical variables manifest.

Mike Most is spot on.

 

[Mike P.]

I can't speak for Graeme (although I'm sort of going to anyway), but color science has always been both an art and a science, balancing the physical principles of light, the human perception of it, the digital representation of it, and the art of what is pleasing in human visual experience. Graeme knows this very well, and while his earliest efforts might have been a bit more slanted to the pure science, he has balanced all of these considerations very well for a number of years now. Tne math is important, which is why (at least for the most part) colorists are not color scientists. And the art of color grading is not the same as the art of gamut mapping, writing transforms and matrices for various purposes, and creating LUTs for color space conversions. In both cases there is an element of technology and science, and an element of art. But looking at color science as "pure science," and casting Graeme in that light, is not really accurate or fair to the man, the position, or the results.

Oh I totally agree.. I just wouldn't be surprised if Light Iron/Panavision doesn't have to worry about the balance nearly as much... They can break the rules (reduce DR and accuracy) if it allows them to achieve a look they want, whereas G might not necessarily have that much freedom (which makes his job much more difficult, and his work that much more impressive given the results he gets). LI/Panavision/DXL are in an awesome position because they can stand on the shoulders of giants (both the VV Dragon, and Graeme), which is why this partnership has so much potential for RedUsers as well...

I think maybe I didn't articulate properly (or maybe it's coming off like I appreciate a "filmic look" more.). Truth is, whatever the case may be, I love the fact that with RED (more than any other), we actually *can* have it both ways. And, I mean the best part is that Greame, Cioni, and Ian will likelyl chime in if they feel it necessary.

 

[M.Halsell]

Does anyone know the history of Panavision Primo ?

Primo lens design at Elcan (Ernst Leitz Canada)

 

[Milano Questa]

No but I think it is very encouraging that Panavision tested ALL the sensors out there in the wild and decided on the Weapon 8K sensor and tech. They have done a nice job in the design with internal motors for focus and iris so no wires, no exterior motors. FIZ built in.

All sensors? Even Arri65?

There isn't much to choose from in the way of digital cine sensors.

 

[Brett Harrison]

You are mistaken in both cases.

Neither of the examples you mention can be properly achieved without the usage of both aspects of the mind.

There is no single "film look" to have out of the gate. Both cases include creative decision on aesthetic, which in a color science realm is heavy juggling between what an eye sees, heart wants and N interdependent technical variables manifest.

Mike Most is spot on.

Very true, colour scientists rely heavily on just asking people what they see and recording it. Graeme has often said on here 'if it looks right it is right'. The research papers regularly refer to what is pleasing vs. what is accurate.

I think the Analogy that Panavision have tuned their lens making process for cinema says it all - which is very exciting. RED is more of a Zeiss Master Prime compared with a Primo.

 

[Peter Lyons Collister ASC]

Two things... Panavision tested many sensors including sensors we don't even know about. Remember the Alexa 65 sensor is a sensor weld of 2 Alexa 35 sensors I believe so yes they tested that.

And as for color science remember that Graeme is constantly (and I do mean constantly) working on the color science. He is tweaking the 8K sensor science as we speak. I would assume that Cioni's people are in constant conversations and emails with Graeme. What Cioni/Light Iron/ Panavision is doing with their color science is tweaking it so the out of the box look is more "pleasing" to people. I hesitate to use the phrase "more Alexa like" but that is what has happened.

Remember we are talking a big sensor. Read all you can about the magic 8K circle discussion from Cioni.....

 

[Mike Nagel]

the most important things IMO - by far - is to get a neutral image from the raw, everything else is then adjusted to taste...

the DXL footage today was very nice - way better than the VV 8K preview of last year - and it looked very clean...

but it had a grade on it, so it needs to be seen whenever somebody does a test against a standard VV 8K how much the custom OLPF and the LI color cleans up the image...

I hope the color science improvements will trickle down to the standard Dragon cams ASAP...

There's nothing worst to finally get DC4 - the very best Dragon debayer - but everybody has moved on to the next sensor and it (partially) starts all over.....

 

[David Battistella]

And as for color science remember that Graeme is constantly (and I do mean constantly) working on the color science. He is tweaking the 8K sensor science as we speak. I would assume that Cioni's people are in constant conversations and emails with Graeme. What Cioni/Light Iron/ Panavision is doing with their color science is tweaking it so the out of the box look is more "pleasing" to people. I hesitate to use the phrase "more Alexa like" but that is what has happened.

And this is exactly as it should be. Panavision wants to build it's next generation cameras around RED sensor tech and they will want to create image paths (custom looks, OLPF's to go with their lenses) and workflows, looks that give them an exclusive look that they produce, research and create for their tech and their customers. Panavision is a respected name in cinema and it's great that RED is associated with them in this way.

This is yet another example of how eventually all users will win in the long run.

The only way to view this is as a huge positive for all parties including "we" the red customer base.

David

 

[Elsie N]

And this is exactly as it should be. Panavision wants to build it's next generation cameras around RED sensor tech and they will want to create image paths (custom looks, OLPF's to go with their lenses) and workflows, looks that give them an exclusive look that they produce, research and create for their tech and their customers. Panavision is a respected name in cinema and it's great that RED is associated with them in this way.

This is yet another example of how eventually all users will win in the long run.

The only way to view this is as a huge positive for all parties including "we" the red customer base.

David

I agree it is a positive in that the movie-going public will identify with 8k rather than PV 8k. This will surely be a positive for those of us in the 8k queue who can make the 8k claim.

It can on the other hand be a negative for us in that PV will soak up many, if not all the passed 8k sensors for a while. Eventually 8k will trickle down, but when?

 

[Ugo Del]

I agree it is a positive in that the movie-going public will identify with 8k rather than PV 8k. This will surely be a positive for those of us in the 8k queue who can make the 8k claim.

It can on the other hand be a negative for us in that PV will soak up many, if not all the passed 8k sensors for a while. Eventually 8k will trickle down, but when?

Double edged sword. From what I read in the forums here and there, Light Iron making a new color science for a Red sensor means that Red CS was not good enough, like an admission of weakness for many guys. I hope Red will have some CS update influenced by this project and will not become a subpar not optimized Panavision camera.
And I guess people, especially cinematographers, will focus more on colors than Ks (only redusers complain about the alexa resolution before alexa65).

 

[David Battistella]

Double edged sword. From what I read in the forums here and there, Light Iron making a new color science for a Red sensor means that Red CS was not good enough, like an admission of weakness for many guys. I hope Red will have some CS update influenced by this project and will not become a subpar not optimized Panavision camera.

we are talking about a private company, Panavison who do not sell and only rent cameras lenses, etc to a very specific customer base. The color science is tweaked very specifically to their OLPF and their lenses which work as part of their camera and lens rental package.

The RED Dragon color science is there to serve every other aspect of production aside from the very narrow one described above. To somehow suggest it is inferior or not "good enough" is just plain wrong IMO.

Add to this that RED has made it possible for underwater shooters to modify the color science for that specific situation and little old me can match and test any one of many different types of OLPFs now available with my lenses and add custom LUTS to "cook a look" and I think it's actually quite fair.

Panavision on is putting resources toward creating the next generation of images which falls in line with their tradition and history, but the fact that they are doing this does not make RED's color science "not good enough" it just means REd has become flexible enough for anyone who wants to, to squeeze more out of their sensor.

No no one has "lost" here. We all win.

david

 

[M.Halsell]

I am curious how long is required to stock Panavision's 8K demand as related to satisfying the RED 8K queue?

 

[Patrick Tresch]

...the fact that they are doing this does not make RED's color science "not good enough"
No no one has "lost" here. We all win.

david

Not sure if this is true when Ian Vertovec says that their CS has been tweeked to make it " ... clean skin tone and rich, vibrant saturated colors and not plastic or electric-looking colors.".
Doesn't it sound like a LI vs RED thing?

Will a private company like Panavision be happy to give back to the community what has been found in the R&D with RED?

Pat

 

[David Battistella]

Not sure if this is true when Ian Vertovec says that their CS has been tweeked to make it " ... our top priority is good, clean skin tone and rich, vibrant saturated colors and not plastic or electric-looking colors.".
Doesn't it make sound like one VS the other?

Pat

but you get the concept that RED color science needs to satisfy a wider range of motion and stills production, while Panavision is aiming directly toward recreating some this that is very specific to major motion picture production. Plus, they would be wanting to create space between their level of production and the rest of the feild and they have the resources to do that as their own proprietary look and feel.

they are doing what they have always done, cutting themselves away from "the crowd".

I dont believe it's a stab at RED or the quality of the images. They could have easily picked any sensor or system, but they picked this one and now they want to customize it. You get that we are talking about them serving the highest end market? That is what this is about. Not really about stating that RED is inferior, but if one wants to view it that way that is ones prerogative.

David

 

[David Battistella]

And I might add that any lens, OLPF and LUT combo can create this exact same situation for any production. Not everyone will have the same resources, but conceptually people can easily cook LUTS to emulate what is being discussed here. Panavison is doing it a deeper level, it's true, but they are also doing it through REDs SDK.

David

 

[Patrick Tresch]

I'm OVER happy with Dragon sensor / color science.
I'm "the crowd" and do not complain about any tool RED gave me since 2008 (from RED ONE 336 to Weapon MG).
But I'm fed up with the color science bashing of RED in the industry and the PR Panavision is making is partly based on that.
I probably should ignore it because my trust is in what I see on screen every day.

 

[Phil Holland]

Not sure if this is true when Ian Vertovec says that their CS has been tweeked to make it " ... clean skin tone and rich, vibrant saturated colors and not plastic or electric-looking colors.".
Doesn't it sound like a LI vs RED thing?

Will a private company like Panavision be happy to give back to the community what has been found in the R&D with RED?

Pat

They are using choice words. It's not particularly a slap on RED, but rather emphasizing some of the things they want to avoid that certain other cameras/brands tend to do. Namely two of them that you never tend to see on typical studio productions.

As for the new OLPF and Color Science that is under development still, the focus is clearly to create something that is exclusive to Panavision, their workflow, and for their customers.

That's not stuff that ends up in anybody's hands except PV.

However, it's also some of the reason that people like me don't release our LUTs for that matter. It's part of the service I provide.

 

[David Battistella]

I probably should ignore it because my trust is in what I see on screen every day.

That is good advice to give yourself.

 

[Peter Lyons Collister ASC]

You will see that Graeme's color science is in evidence as DragonColor2 & Red Gamma 4 is showing on the display. No one is replacing Graeme's hard work here.