Panavision 8K Camera

[Mike S. M.]

No but I think it is very encouraging that Panavision tested ALL the sensors out there in the wild and decided on the Weapon 8K sensor and tech. They have done a nice job in the design with internal motors for focus and iris so no wires, no exterior motors. FIZ built in.

I think it's foolish to believe Panavision has tested ALL sensors out there. I doubt they tested the Arri sensor because they are in direct competition and I doubt Arri would let them use it. I also doubt they tested any Sony sensor. Their relationship with Sony seems to be over for several reasons. Maybe they tested off the shelf sensors out there like the ones Blackmagic uses. But this is not saying much. Of course the Red sensor is better than this.

I think politically, Panavision is not happy that Arri has their own rental facilities in some areas that are in direct competition with them, plus Arri makes, sells, and rents world-class lenses. It makes better business sense to make a Panavised Red camera that works with Panavision lenses. I think this is all about being competitive and providing something you can't buy anywhere else.

I have seen DPs who have objections to certain things about the basic Red camera, but a lot of those problems were addressed with the Panavised DXL camera. It looks really good and has a lot of very well-thought-out features.

Exactly!

Politics would make it very hard for them to consider Arri or Sony sensors. So if they are saying that it's just marketing talk. But I didn't hear that directly from anybody at Panavision.

 

[Andreas Mendritzki]

It doesn't have a Red logo because it's not a Red camera. It only uses a Red sensor. A camera is so much more than just the sensor. If anybody thinks images out of this camera will look just like images out of a Red Weapon they are in for a surprise. Red sensor but everything else that makes the image is Panavision.

While you're right in that there seems to be a lot of Panavision in this camera (that will eventually distinguish its usability and even perhaps the images it spits out [Light Iron color aside] there is clearly more RED in there than just the sensor. If you look hard enough there's a heck of a lot of similarities between this and Fincher's Alien cams. . . Front of the cam is Weapon, front/operator side of the cam is Weapon (including ssd mag & pogo connectors) everything right down to the font on the menu is Weapon). I think you're really looking at a hot-roded Weapon 8k here....

 

[Nick Morrison]

It doesn't have a Red logo because it's not a Red camera. It only uses a Red sensor. A camera is so much more than just the sensor. If anybody thinks images out of this camera will look just like images out of a Red Weapon they are in for a surprise. Red sensor but everything else that makes the image is Panavision.

Ummm...Im assuming RED "made" this camera FOR Panavision. I wouldn't dismiss RED's involvement so easily. This camera looks A LOT like the Zenomorph RED also made for David Fincher. No denying Panavision's input on this - but the image quality is still coming from a RED sensor and RED boards, presumably the same as what will be in a RED 8K Weapon. The color science and OLPF may be tweaked - but that's it. Lets please give RED their due...

Panavision could have teamed up with LOTS of other companies - Sony, Panasonic, Canon, etc - they chose RED for a REASON.

 

[Brett Harrison]

Isn't everything with R3Ds post-related? If the color science were implemented in the Red SDK, we can use it in software like Resolve and that's the main importance.

Panavision are all about exclusivity; I doubt that they would offer their Light Iron IP up for Weapon. However I would imagine that the collaboration has given RED some ideas/directions.

Panavision may have deeper access to the sensor - who knows. But the point is that if you give Light Iron your r3d they will transform it and develop it to its full potential using the experience and knoweldge of colourists and colour scientists. To my mind, RED have always just offered you the information in an unbiased way and said 'let's see what you can do with it' whereas ARRI have tried to make it look a certain way at the get-go.

 

[Christoffer Glans]

It doesn't have a Red logo because it's not a Red camera. It only uses a Red sensor. A camera is so much more than just the sensor. If anybody thinks images out of this camera will look just like images out of a Red Weapon they are in for a surprise. Red sensor but everything else that makes the image is Panavision.

If you look at the camera design, there's more Red in there than just the sensor. Think about the Xenomorph, essentially this is the same thing, but with another design. You still use Redmags and I think the interface on the screen menus might be the same, but dunno.

Panavision are all about exclusivity; I doubt that they would offer their Light Iron IP up for Weapon. However I would imagine that the collaboration has given RED some ideas/directions.

Panavision may have deeper access to the sensor - who knows. But the point is that if you give Light Iron your r3d they will transform it and develop it to its full potential using the experience and knoweldge of colourists and colour scientists. To my mind, RED have always just offered you the information in an unbiased way and said 'let's see what you can do with it' whereas ARRI have tried to make it look a certain way at the get-go.

How can Panavision have deeper access to the sensor than the makers of the sensor? :tongue_smilie:

But as I also mentioned, Weapons might be used for smaller setups and drones on shoots where the Panavision is the main camera and then you'd need the same color science.

 

[Brett Harrison]

How can Panavision have deeper access to the sensor than the makers of the sensor? :tongue_smilie:

But as I also mentioned, Weapons might be used for smaller setups and drones on shoots where the Panavision is the main camera and then you'd need the same color science.

Deeper than end users. We only get the transforms we're given like ACES, RLF, DC2 - we don't get access to the native camera data. Who knows, perhaps they're even writing customised debayer algorithms.

There are already Panavised Epics and Weapons - it wouldn't be hard to issue exclusive firmware per serial number for those cameras to give the Panavision customers the Light Iron mojo.

 

[Jeffery Anderson]

To my mind, RED have always just offered you the information in an unbiased way and said 'let's see what you can do with it' whereas ARRI have tried to make it look a certain way at the get-go.

I think for a long time Red did have it's doors closed to 3rd parties... specifically when it comes to compression/color science... I think when ACES 1st tried designing DIT and 3D LUTs Red didn't participate(unlike Alexa & Sony), but it could have easy been that the quality was not up to Red's standard. Then again, they've away done RAW in Camera and Color in post... just food for thought


there were also lawsuits, that are now a distant memory

If you look at the camera design, there's more Red in there than just the sensor. Think about the Xenomorph, essentially this is the same thing, but with another design. You still use Redmags and I think the interface on the screen menus might be the same, but dunno.

I suspect the camera might be very expensive and that's why it's a rental... Jarred seems to indicate that if they sell a million of an item over a thousand he can bring down the price... might help invest more in 8k tech?

seems like they're developing a new 8k/Full Frame standard over the older Super35, specifically with Lenses

 

[Brian Merlen]

Where is panavisions 65 digital camera they built in house? It has more resolution than 8k and was nearly finalized last I heard? It's why they have a 100 lens sets for it too? Not that I'm opposed to this outcome just wasn't expecting this



ps Sony screwed them in the past on f35. Arri competes with them now with 65. This isn't a bad move for all involved in just surprised they would mothball their 65 when it was so close to being released?

 

[Phil Holland]

Where is panavisions 65 digital camera they built in house? It has more resolution than 8k and was nearly finalized last I heard? It's why they have a 100 lens sets for it too? Not that I'm opposed to this outcome just wasn't expecting this

That project is long since dead.

 

[Brian Merlen]

i heard they were still weighing killing it or not as recent as late last year.... man id trade them all my cameras for that unit! i just need 65, i hope red turns out one soon. i cant even buy a used phantom 65 despite lots of attempts...

 

[Christoffer Glans]

That project is long since dead.

...and why continue with that when you have a Vista Vision 8K sensor instead, that enables use of "regular" cinema lenses that cover full frame. I think the most underestimated thing about the 8K sensor is that you don't have to use cinema medium glass, which would be quite costly. I don't doubt that people who use this camera and the Alexa 65 can afford such lenses, but still. Also, it gives more options when picking lenses and you don't have to be locked into super slow apertures. You can still probably shoot with T1.4 lenses in full frame. As a format, Vista Vision 8K is quite final I would say. It's the largest sensor in a "normal" working film gear architecture and it's enough resolution for many years to come.

 

[Michael Hastings]

snip:
But as I also mentioned, Weapons might be used for smaller setups and drones on shoots where the Panavision is the main camera and then you'd need the same color science.

I think this is a very important point as it suggests we will have some access to whatever mojo Light Iron created. Or at least if it is good someone will examine it and recreate it.

 

[Kemalettin Sert]

I think it's foolish to believe Panavision has tested ALL sensors out there. I doubt they tested the Arri sensor because they are in direct competition and I doubt Arri would let them use it. I also doubt they tested any Sony sensor. Their relationship with Sony seems to be over for several reasons. Maybe they tested off the shelf sensors out there like the ones Blackmagic uses. But this is not saying much. Of course the Red sensor is better than this.

Panavision had panavised Alexas since the beginning.why they can't test Alexa? Even you can rent Alexa65 ? But not panavision? LoL

 

[Brody_B]

It doesn't have a Red logo because it's not a Red camera. It only uses a Red sensor. A camera is so much more than just the sensor. If anybody thinks images out of this camera will look just like images out of a Red Weapon they are in for a surprise. Red sensor but everything else that makes the image is Panavision.

It's not a Red brain too?

 

[Randall Weatherington]

As far as I know, Panavision never sold a camera or lens in the 60+ year history of the company. They're strictly rental.

The FTC, in of all cases a DP wanting to buy a Panaflex, ruled that if a company offers a product for rent, they must also offer the product for sale.
Panavision puts such a cost prohibitive price tag on their equipment that nobody wants to purchase.

 

[Nick Morrison]

I think it's foolish to believe Panavision has tested ALL sensors out there. I doubt they tested the Arri sensor because they are in direct competition and I doubt Arri would let them use it. I also doubt they tested any Sony sensor. Their relationship with Sony seems to be over for several reasons. Maybe they tested off the shelf sensors out there like the ones Blackmagic uses. But this is not saying much. Of course the Red sensor is better than this.

They've had Panavised Alexas for a while, as other have said. I'm sure Panavision did thier due diligence before plunging into the DXL.

 

[Joel Arvidsson]

I'm interested to see if the LightIronColour and LightIronGamma become available in RCXp...

My thoughts aswell. Leets hope!

 

[Nick Morrison]

It doesn't have a Red logo because it's not a Red camera. It only uses a Red sensor. A camera is so much more than just the sensor. If anybody thinks images out of this camera will look just like images out of a Red Weapon they are in for a surprise. Red sensor but everything else that makes the image is Panavision.

Ummm...this looks just like Xenomorph. My guess this camera is very much "RED", and what Panavision are providing are ergononimcs and color workflow - but everything else inside is RED.

This partnership is clearly great for everyone - RED, Panavision, and Light Iron.

But I wouldn't be so rash to dismiss RED's involvement here - the guts inside appear to be 100% RED.

 

[David Battistella]

From what I understand, this was a collaborative effort. Why is that so hard to believe?

i agree that this opens up a new chapter for red sensor tech and I am sure we will see a lot of feature production with this 8k cameras doing a lot of heavy lifting in the feature world in the coming couple of years.

Exciting times.

 

[Brian Merlen]

...and why continue with that when you have a Vista Vision 8K sensor instead, that enables use of "regular" cinema lenses that cover full frame. I think the most underestimated thing about the 8K sensor is that you don't have to use cinema medium glass, which would be quite costly. I don't doubt that people who use this camera and the Alexa 65 can afford such lenses, but still. Also, it gives more options when picking lenses and you don't have to be locked into super slow apertures. You can still probably shoot with T1.4 lenses in full frame. As a format, Vista Vision 8K is quite final I would say. It's the largest sensor in a "normal" working film gear architecture and it's enough resolution for many years to come.

But what's a regular lens? S35? PV made 70s and needed to repurpose them. They are still 70 medium format sized and I'd guess slower as a result? PV isn't interested in renting this camera out without getting their glass booked too. My red 8k will be rocking full frame still glass but no one using PV will would be my guess. It's the only reason to book from them besides this camera basically.. It will be interesting to see this going against Arri 65