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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Panasonic GH5 gets a kick in the pants, firmware update coming. And YI 4k+ 4kp60.

Steve Sherrick said:
Well, I think the point is the specs are only part of the story here. People have made quality content on far less capable image capture systems, and people have enjoyed that content. I like that you are always thinking ahead and trying to imagine what the world could be if people were just smarter and made better decisions about what to bring to market but I have to tell you, someone and more likely many are going to get a hold of this camera and produce things that I would never be able to make with the greatest camera you could ever offer me. Give me 28K, 120fps, RAW, 18 stops of DR, blah, blah, blah and I will never be able to achieve what these people will achieve with the "inferior" GH5. Specs are fun to talk about sometimes but really it's the content that ultimately drives us. And where we are at currently with technology, this camera is a capable tool of making someone's artistic vision come alive. It's not always about perfect skin tones, endless DR, etc. It's about what you are able to achieve with your imagination and the tools you have available to you. It's a lesson I continue to learn as I watch talented people do things I am envious of.
So, I'm not asking you to stop imagining what the future could bring in terms of technology but rather embrace the opportunities the technology that is here can bring. And if you or someone else is able to bring amazing camera specs to a wider group of people through a cheaper price point and make it sustainable, I think that will be embraced too.
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Great post!
 
Steve thanks. I'm laying down here to write at the moment because I have trouble walking (and frankly answering posts) at the moment. I'm continuously loosing threads of thought as I write, why my posts aren't 100% structured and deeply precisely cutting at times. On the drive over here, I had an brilliantly insightful structure for a post on a topic in my head, within 20 seconds, maybe a few, I thought I can't remember what it was about, I'm not a geniuse again, even though sitting down my blood pressure is right. So here goes:

Believe me the various interests that co-operate are not giving you everything you need or they can afford to, but what is convenient to make money, and often more money. Where they used yo say customer service, it is now more customer cattle for marketing deparments to convince you are getting good value. One of the only value sectors in the market is ambarella based Chinese cameras. Most of the quality metrics are cheap functions that could be added for a $1 to these cameras, some $10, some $100 in place a the couple doller to maybe $20 part. But you look at some of these things and even I marvel they can sell something for $30 retail. Eventually 8kp60, is probably going be a $30 camera cheaper (essentially likely past the current looming silicon bottle neck). Eventually most of what we regard as a high end camera could be put in for $30 with whatever interfaces, plus cost of sockets and controls. Even ambarella have had chioset designs that should or explicitedly stated to do 8k, I forget, been a year or so. (Now I've forgotten his to spell ambarella). Na, there it goes again, lost the thread.

Anyway, it is not all about them being smarter, they are, it is about us and what we encourage them to do by enablingnthem to exist by what we buy. We need to be the smarter ones.

Now, it doesn't matter that much, then why do people spend money on better equipment, the more so the higher you go in the industry. Why did the transformers director spend months comparing the image characteristics tests of different cameras. That's way past what most of us would, butnthennhe was making one of the highest grjssing films of the season.

Now, let's step back, and realise I'm only essentially complaining about three or four things. The 8 bit 4:2:0 of the 4kp50 mode (which is going to bite you in the arse artistically trying to push that around too much in the HDR realm, even in the SDR realm. 4:2:0 is not such an issue, as 4:2:2 maps better to the underlying Bayer image for processing). The low datarate. 150mb/s is not great for pushing around, or other image issues that don't compress well. Budget film maybe, quality budget film is another thing. 12 stop, please at least 16 stops, less work better images more easily low budget, el xgwapo sensors like I'm my sub $100 pocket 720p60 camcorder been capable of this for a decade or so, my 2001 credit card sized stills did at least this (and the sensor soecs show it should have been able to 720p, pity). It gives a loverly look to images as the camera adjusts to just seesl beyond what the human eye does, cools down the top end brightness and saturation of the image a bit, very artistic. A higher frame rate photo mode.(forget what pixel format or compression that has, but not expectkng too much at that resolution and frame rate). Essentially this should all be possible in that price, not technically remarkable.

If the camera had all those things listed above, it would be a formidable low end camera suitable fke all budget uses. Sure it still wouldn't be as good as a Raven, but some of these things could be done by firmware update. Get the point. What to do next.

Let's look at it this way, 4kp50 is less demanding to reach with 10 bit 4:2:2 then 4kp60, as it is a bit closer to 4kp30. P50 is a known HDTV format, and very conformable to a 24p 180 degree shutter, dual shooting. Something likely very doable with a firmware update. But, the doable 10 bit+ modes might be locked in the sensor, or in the camera hardware compressor,(as with most of the rest of the things below).

Raising the datarate from 150mb/s might be possible, or might be a disaster, but raising it to 200 mb/s might be much more disable with a firmware update. Simply put, 144mb/s-150, relates to highend bluray fhd compression ratio, consumer grade. You want to be double consumer grade, or more, for professional use and then go dien after you have finished post production. Consumer grade is not visually lossless, and nasty things turn up. 300 mb/s hopefully will be closer to visually lossless. (Now it's kicking in again). However, 200mb/s+ is a compromise.

12 stop, I find it hard to believe that this isn't just a native sdr latitude of the sensor, good for whitish half skies, blackish shadows. However there are some tricks that might get 13 or 14 stops on higher bit pixels (but I would not be surprised if 8 bit mode is really 10 or 11 stops, throw it against the wall territory if you were rich and 10 but was like that too). It is normal for some sensors to have a HDR mechanism, like multiple slope. If that is available on this sensor then firmware could enable a likely 16 stop+ HDR mode, accurately (not poorly done). But knowing Sony's love for native latitude, it might not have a HDR mechanism. Now, the issue with HDR of the past, is some unnatural effects onntje image, but if it is implemented and the slopes exposed and aligned right, not such an issue. HDR stuff looks gorgeous. Just watching dash can HDR test footage makes me feel good, the details are also amazing, the cloud details like sculptures. So maybe, maybe not with a firmware update.

A 6kp50 mode, apart from the on camera processing chip, this might definitely be limited by the sensor itself. The sensor might have a top end data rate close to 6kp30. So maybe, just possible there is a possibility this could be done with.a firmware update.

Steve, I like your well written thoughtful forthright post, I wish that was the ussual here. I am usually the one arguing how much you can do with with so little, but as you can see there are practical reasons and this camera is a little short. Originally all I wanted was a 50mb/s mpeg2 720p50 shoulder mount camera to do that stuff, as a minimum over 12 years ago. But the guys got sidetracked into this fancy name making for themselves digital cinema camera stuff and all the cheaper lesser stuff went out the window. I proposed a 4k spec list for a futyre camera and some of the guys joined the newly sarted Red and the Red One came out, pretty close to it (but 3-4 times the price). So, my heart is on the low end (and the 50p at 4k has been a desire a long time with me for practical purposes). This camera is another half to 3/4 step in the right direction of a moving target (except 8k is not so needed outside of stills and rendering better downscaled 4k, for us. So next time we will probably start catching up more with the practical target). Hopefully the 200 replacement completely catches up, as the next generation of Sony sensors, or Panasonic maybe, should be a doozie).
 
Plenty of BMCCs and 5D mk2s have been used successfully on feature films as crash cams. Even Iron Man 2 used 5Ds for the Monaco race sequence. Mad Max used the BMCC for the POV chase sequence.

Wayne I've no idea why you want to bash an entry-level camera so much, especially one you've not touched - but in video specs it annihilates the 5D you mentioned, and at almost half the price.

Sometimes you need to just shut up and shoot and not worry about it all. This will be a feeder camera for a whole host of people coming into shooting.
 
The GH5 is marketed to the naive?

Now, I know we're talking about "cinema" here, and by that I am assuming you mean Hollywood level productions and budgets, but that does raise the question as to what constitutes cinema - and I do believe that there are many people who would argue that the true spirit and art of cinema is actually most alive outside of the major budgets and corporate industry.

That's a different topic, but all that to say - it would seem prudent to remember that the cinema industry is a big industry, and many people freelance and shoot beautiful content on GH cameras and make a better living than engineers at Intel, sometimes being paid to shoot international documentary work as a one man film crew in amazing locations all around the world, carrying their gear in a backpack up mountains and into villages and in small trucks to access remote places, capturing subjects who would be very intimidated by larger camera gear - assuming the freelancer could carry all that gear to location at all. These freelancers may be telling incredible stories for organizations making incredible contributions to justice issues across the globe, who have decent budgets, but not the sort of budgets that pay for Red Weapons and all of the associated expenses and production considerations that come with it.

In fact, these freelancers may be incredibly tech savvy and understand that companies like Panasonic make a profit - sometimes a massive profit - on cameras like a GH5, and a VaricamLT, even after R&D costs are factored. They may understand that they could offer almost all of the features in a VaricamLT in a much smaller, lighter weight body for a fraction of the cost. They may even wish they did. They may look forward to the day when, spurred on by increasing competition, companies produce GH sized and GH priced cameras with 16 stops of DR, FF sensors, and 240fps @ 6k, all for $2000. They may decide that instead of merely waiting for that day, they may want to buy a GH5 in the meantime and keep shooting and doing what they love, in the niche they thrive in.

As a wise man once said, "normalcy involves what is realistically possible" - and everyone's niche is different.

Wayne, you seem like a smart and balanced guy so I'm sure you recognize that the GH5 is not just marketed to and/or purchased by naive consumers, but perhaps also by very professional freelancers who understand all of these things - from business to tech to other options - but work under the tyranny of market realities along with the blessing of a fulfilling, well paying but budget conscious career and niche they love, telling and capturing stories which contribute to more important human issues than 12-bit 4:2:2 RAW.

Of course, the worst part about this is if - despite a little banding, or maybe a little noise in the shadows in that clip, or that distant blown out highlight spotted by the pixel peeper - is if the images, framing, composition, story, and overall cinema they produce resonates more strongly with the people for whom we actually create cinema for.

Don't get me wrong, I love super slow motion low light shots and insane dynamic range with pixel perfect everything as much as the next guy, but let's remember why we fell in love with cinema in the first place. I love the tools of our trade, but ultimately I just want to tell compelling stories and change the way people view the world. For me that means a 1.5lbs body, flip out, rotating LCD screen, AF features I can use on a Zhiyun crane, quick intuitive menus I can operate with one hand, 10bit 422 internal log w/out external accessories, VFR for total frame rate control, 50+ hours worth of battery and storage... all stored in my backpack. That I can hike with. Up a mountain, into a remote village.
 
Diego Ramirez Budowski said:
This is more of a threat to the fs7 me thinks
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Not at all. The FS7 is far too good a 'jack of all trades' camera. It has constantly been out of stock for 2 years because of how popular it is with all markets.

The FS5, quite possibly. I'd take this over an FS5 in a heartbeat.
 
Daniel Cegla said:
The GH5 is marketed to the naive?

Now, I know we're talking about "cinema" here, and by that I am assuming you mean Hollywood level productions and budgets, but that does raise the question as to what constitutes cinema - and I do believe that there are many people who would argue that the true spirit and art of cinema is actually most alive outside of the major budgets and corporate industry.

That's a different topic, but all that to say - it would seem prudent to remember that the cinema industry is a big industry, and many people freelance and shoot beautiful content on GH cameras and make a better living than engineers at Intel, sometimes being paid to shoot international documentary work as a one man film crew in amazing locations all around the world, carrying their gear in a backpack up mountains and into villages and in small trucks to access remote places, capturing subjects who would be very intimidated by larger camera gear - assuming the freelancer could carry all that gear to location at all. These freelancers may be telling incredible stories for organizations making incredible contributions to justice issues across the globe, who have decent budgets, but not the sort of budgets that pay for Red Weapons and all of the associated expenses and production considerations that come with it.

In fact, these freelancers may be incredibly tech savvy and understand that companies like Panasonic make a profit - sometimes a massive profit - on cameras like a GH5, and a VaricamLT, even after R&D costs are factored. They may understand that they could offer almost all of the features in a VaricamLT in a much smaller, lighter weight body for a fraction of the cost. They may even wish they did. They may look forward to the day when, spurred on by increasing competition, companies produce GH sized and GH priced cameras with 16 stops of DR, FF sensors, and 240fps @ 6k, all for $2000. They may decide that instead of merely waiting for that day, they may want to buy a GH5 in the meantime and keep shooting and doing what they love, in the niche they thrive in.

As a wise man once said, "normalcy involves what is realistically possible" - and everyone's niche is different.

Wayne, you seem like a smart and balanced guy so I'm sure you recognize that the GH5 is not just marketed to and/or purchased by naive consumers, but perhaps also by very professional freelancers who understand all of these things - from business to tech to other options - but work under the tyranny of market realities along with the blessing of a fulfilling, well paying but budget conscious career and niche they love, telling and capturing stories which contribute to more important human issues than 12-bit 4:2:2 RAW.

Of course, the worst part about this is if - despite a little banding, or maybe a little noise in the shadows in that clip, or that distant blown out highlight spotted by the pixel peeper - is if the images, framing, composition, story, and overall cinema they produce resonates more strongly with the people for whom we actually create cinema for.

Don't get me wrong, I love super slow motion low light shots and insane dynamic range with pixel perfect everything as much as the next guy, but let's remember why we fell in love with cinema in the first place. I love the tools of our trade, but ultimately I just want to tell compelling stories and change the way people view the world. For me that means a 1.5lbs body, flip out, rotating LCD screen, AF features I can use on a Zhiyun crane, quick intuitive menus I can operate with one hand, 10bit 422 internal log w/out external accessories, VFR for total frame rate control, 50+ hours worth of battery and storage... all stored in my backpack. That I can hike with. Up a mountain, into a remote village.
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In summary, which other cameras can you fit in one hand, weigh less than a bag of sugar and will give you 4k 30p 4:2:2 10-bit? The answer is none. Not a single one aside from this. Oh, and cost about the same as a side handle for a Raven, let alone the camera itself.
 
Ask the guys that hardware hack the gopro series if they have, or gh4, or other. It doesnt matter what fools offer people to eat like they are cattle, but what cattle can eat. Your argument is a non argument, nobody said it was different (however, I haven't reviewed the latest camcorders).

Now literally, the GH series has had a leading reputation for videoing among digital stills. I'm surprised the Fs7 is that far ahead.
 
I'm excited for this. I just shot some light wack B-Roll for an MV in Paris with my Canon 60D which I had not used for several years. I forgot how liberating it to is to travel and shoot with a DSLR and a Z-Finder. So small and inconspicuous. Nobody even knows you're filming. When collecting B-Roll with a Red, pedestrians act different around you as it screams "I'm filming with a super expensive camera."

For $2000, this is brilliant.
 
To all who moan and groan about who is paying what for high-tech, consider that the enormous thicket of patents that cover everything from pixels to wifi comes at a cost. You can read about it here. Panasonic (and RED for that matter) probably pay a lot of licensing fees they'd rather not, and they don't necessarily make it up in return when the whole point of the patents (from their strategic perspective) is to inhibit competition. The net net is that lots of cost goes into a competitive strategy that is both expensive and legally uncertain. Measuring the cost of a high-tech gadget by counting the nano-acres of its chips doesn't account properly for this.

As others have said, Panasonic has positively moved the competitive profile of their flagship consumer camera forward. I think they've moved it forward farther and faster than Canon has done with their consumer lines. And the market appears to agree (with Canon consistently and persistently discounting their newer products, not only their older, more obviously obsoleted ones). Good on Panasonic! I will probably buy a GH5 this summer, adding to or replacing the GH4 that I already have.

None of the GH series competes with my Weapons (soon to be Helium S35s...whenever RED decides to allocate my order).
 
Yeah, for that stuff. I did a fair bit of filming holiday filming with my pocket Aiptek 720p60, like a pocket GY-HD1/HD100U, the codec was nice, and the sensor was one of the original nicer low end HD sensors with hdr. Stood out a bit dye to the pistol format, but was OK. The Sony postol grip however was a bit of concern to security when I met Prince William though (great guy). I bought it for around $109 or 90 something from Chicago. It was something like $79 the last time I saw it for sale. Sort of miss that, but I want to see a camera like that setup with professional control (I've done a lot of design work towards that). My latest design effort was a newer version of my flip match box sized design, but unfortunately the sensor technology I was looking at proved not suitable. With in enough money I could do a high framerate 8k+ 3D version within 10 years (this decade if I had a key technology already, where greater than 16k resolution is probably possible (there is another new sensor tech announced). At the moment high frame rate 4k 3D maybe possible, but without funding it will likely be a 720p toy camera and far too much hassle. I'm talking about a professional camera the size of the frame, even 1/1.23 for hundreds of dollers.
 
Michael, a $100 camera is probably covered by just as many patents. It all comes down to your mind set and business model. Probably why cameras use Sony and ambatella chips to spread the cost. Red likely has had access to Sony patents on the Sony Micron cross licensing deal (the pocket camera I mentioned had Micton sensor, and Sony was desperate to get their hands on the technology (rember how hot their s35 sensors used to get). Centralised research costs are spread across a lot of the industry, same reason PC and phone technology can be so cheap. Now, Red and BM broke the rules. FPGA is affordable low volume, but is not cheap. Red could justify going the extra expensive asic route because they had volume they were aiming for (though a number of volume products haven't come out). But using mass volume parts means the everything is cheaper volume or not.

As for your exertiin Panasonic has led the way, it is by far not true. JVC used to lead the wat, and I have been waiting to see if their replacement s35 camera is better. They released a series of firsts, even 36mb/s h264 fullhd camera for less than $1000 dollers they showed outputting 4K and were going to make into a new model before they were closed. Canon had a remarkable HD1 pocket camcorder (which is some strange almost Indian /Chinese ike design). Even better was Sanyo which led time and time again, with the first fullhd for around $699, a truer competitor, which Panasonic bought put and basically shut down. There might still be one Panasonic branded pocket camera left. How s that for am advanced company. If Sanyo was still going we would probably be ready to introduce a second generation 6k or 8k camcorder for less than $1000. Kodak did a lot of stuff going forwards too. But the true leader advancing the industry has been ambarella from $30 camera to probably some of the most advanced cameras using the same technology portfolio.

The reality is that the difference between cheap cameras and adding professional features to them is probably, $10-$100, not $1000-1000000. Reality of the high rent seeking.economy. is they do not want this. They are self entitled to your money to live richely while doing little productive to justify the extra profit (and note, companies that make bad unviable mistakes, keep themselves afloat by doing thus).
 
I'm picking up two of them. Internal 422 4K and 4K 60fps all for under $2k. Bargain of a lifetime. I'm curious if the AF system will be decent enough for some gimbal situations.
 
Steve Sherrick said:
Well, I think the point is the specs are only part of the story here. People have made quality content on far less capable image capture systems, and people have enjoyed that content. I like that you are always thinking ahead and trying to imagine what the world could be if people were just smarter and made better decisions about what to bring to market but I have to tell you, someone and more likely many are going to get a hold of this camera and produce things that I would never be able to make with the greatest camera you could ever offer me. Give me 28K, 120fps, RAW, 18 stops of DR, blah, blah, blah and I will never be able to achieve what these people will achieve with the "inferior" GH5. Specs are fun to talk about sometimes but really it's the content that ultimately drives us. And where we are at currently with technology, this camera is a capable tool of making someone's artistic vision come alive. It's not always about perfect skin tones, endless DR, etc. It's about what you are able to achieve with your imagination and the tools you have available to you. It's a lesson I continue to learn as I watch talented people do things I am envious of.
So, I'm not asking you to stop imagining what the future could bring in terms of technology but rather embrace the opportunities the technology that is here can bring. And if you or someone else is able to bring amazing camera specs to a wider group of people through a cheaper price point and make it sustainable, I think that will be embraced too.
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Excellent post.

Hats off, Steve.
 
Read the reply Hrvoje. You have short changed us all. Do you know what happened to the US auto industry during the 1980's, it was going broke due to people getting used to buying a manufacturers special they begin more and more not buying unless it was a special, so manufacturers were obliged to offer them. But the industry had some incredibly good prices even at bit more. The long term affect, was to hold prices to a reasonable level (the main issue in the industry was internal/structural and artficially propped up American doller and artifically lowered foreign currencies (still happens today). Labor in a hard working economy is not really worth too much more than in another just as hard working economy, it tends to produce similar amounts under the same circumstances (the Japanese just streamlined with commitment back then, the intelligent productivity, and a low yen). Now, I'm not saying that manufacturers shouldn't cover real costs and a modest profit, but they instead give us, what is affect is, active anti specials, but market it to (con) us as if they are, and we that go along with it enable their self entitlement. Now, the gh5 is special relative to the industry right now (and frankly the spec they should have used on that bigger camcorder last year, minus 6k, with the extras I described, and I might have actually bought one). But from a practical engineering and business point of view, I know they could have done more and still could. People think they know, even these manufacturers, but so much more can be done. It's all good on the shop floor, but unless you work it out better on paper how will you know if you are doing better (to flip the old phrase sideways on it's head). That's why manufacturers licence in technology, systems and consultants, because they are barely able to compete in house, those people on the outside tend to be the smarter ones. The only thing that keeps the camera products divisions profitable in these companies, is the refusal of companies like Red and BM to go for their core markets (ENG, still, camcorder) in a meaningful way on the same mass market basis (using mass manufacturing techniques that kick the ass out of costs unless you are nearer fresh/cutting edge technology where high licensing costs and manufacturing costs lay, instead manufacturers offer cheaper technologies at higher prices). When Commodore bought out the Vic 20, they knew mass manufacture they kicked their Asian production lines into gear, and picked an old video chip.they had laying around and old processor technology (they owned a chip manufacturer that designed the 6502 originally). But they did not understand innovation that well, hence they had to buy the Amiga technology in that Atari had a first offer on. So, they undercut everybody and were the biggest selling machine, and sent broke many manufacturers that could not price match them (they sold at a loss). However, the commodore 64 was a minor innovation blip (and the commodore 64GS, would have been great) as probably was the Vic 20, graphics chip in 1977, but the innovation turned to the bought in Amiga technology. Once companies loose people behind these innovations it is jstd for them to be innovatively competitive. You can buy the leading edge company, but if you are going be arses and the staff that produced the innovation.leaves, you did your money (happened many times). Its not the person that mills the case, it is the people that designed the technology and innovation behind the milling machine and the case that generates your lead, they are hard to extremely difficult to replace, a milling operator is not. Them are the hard cold facts of life. But the niave people that get the money for greasing the business and steering it (often not too well) are the ones that get the money instead, often not realising where the real wealth is being generated in key relatively modestly paid staff they see as cogs in their wheels (this attitude can really tank businesses as the market has been relying on advantage, and increasing advantage to generate sales, not management steering towards icebergs). What they need to think is the opposite, the customer and the employees, particularly key employees to wealth generation rather than power vectors) generate the money.
 
High end 8k 360 degree drone camera $3000 (probably lower volume than the Pansonic, but likely using higher volume parts).

http://www.newsshooter.com/2017/01/...launching-q1-for-3000-with-4k-live-streaming/

Ambarella 8k action.and drone camera chipsets. Note the old H2 4kp120 (that = 8kp30, and likely you can hook it up to a suitable 8k chip). And the new 8kp60 H3. Note, 10 bit HDR, unfortunately not 12 bit. Now, read the links. There is somethungnI am not mentioning that we knew about from the Sanyo HD1 days.

https://www.ambarella.com/products/sports-cameras
https://www.ambarella.com/news/104/...HD-SoCs-for-Virtual-Reality-and-Drone-Cameras
https://m.dpreview.com/news/7601128262/ambarella-announces-h3-8k-soc-for-drones-and-video-cameras

Now, this is the yi 4k+ 4kp60. 135mb/s h264 (I think, it's chip does support h265). This is the H2 chipset above, that supports 4kp120, but looks like not here (the sensor likely doesn't support it). I doubt it will be $199 of the previous camera (though the chipset seems to be a low powered version, so maybe this is a commodity H2). So why is similar 4kp60 on the Pansonic GH5 good value at $2k. Hopefully the sensor has good low light.

http://www.newsshooter.com/2017/01/...k-action-camera-with-uhd-capture-up-to-60fps/

Gh5 improved low light footage:
http://www.newsshooter.com/2017/01/...-capabilities-demonstrated-by-nick-driftwood/
 
Wayne Morellini said:
What confuses you Ben?
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You are literally the only person in here (and probably on the planet) that doesn't think this is a great deal for both aspiring young filmmakers and as a b/c-cam for more experienced guys.

You started off comparing this to Helium and Raven and now are talking about HD1s and Sanyos. Owners of those latter cameras could never in a million years dream of having something like a GH5. And owners and users of the former are in here telling you even they can see the benefits of it and possibly find a use for it.
 
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