One Scarlet owners upgrade dilemma

[Michael Mastroserio]

The weapon announcement came the day my scarlet was upgraded to epic mx. I was seriously torn between the epic and scarlet dragon, but went epic because the scarlet dragon was "the end of the road". Now I kind of wish I had just gone to scarlet dragon, as I am now in a hurry to pay for the epic dragon upgrade before NAB hoping that I will receive a nice discount in the future when upgrading to weapon.

 

[Bob Gundu]

The weapon announcement came the day my scarlet was upgraded to epic mx. I was seriously torn between the epic and scarlet dragon, but went epic because the scarlet dragon was "the end of the road". Now I kind of wish I had just gone to scarlet dragon, as I am now in a hurry to pay for the epic dragon upgrade before NAB hoping that I will receive a nice discount in the future when upgrading to weapon.

No one said Scarlet Dragon was the end of the line. I believe it was stated that you couldn't upgrade to epic dragon from scarlet dragon.

 

[Terry VerHaar]

The weapon announcement came the day my scarlet was upgraded to epic mx. I was seriously torn between the epic and scarlet dragon, but went epic because the scarlet dragon was "the end of the road". Now I kind of wish I had just gone to scarlet dragon, as I am now in a hurry to pay for the epic dragon upgrade before NAB hoping that I will receive a nice discount in the future when upgrading to weapon.

I feel your pain. I was lucky enough to dodge that bullet only because I dragged my feet on the trade-in. Like you, I made the assumption that, because you couldn't move up to Epic Dragon from Scarlet Dragon, that Scarlet Dragon was sort of a dead end. Now, of course, I see how that was simply a short-sighted view. But it does't make it any easier to swallow. Maybe it helps to realize that it will probably take a big check to make that leap from Scarlet Dragon to Weapon when the time comes. Meanwhile, you have an awesome camera and, who knows, maybe some new pathways will open up.

 

[Michael Mastroserio]

In the email I received from red it stated that the scarlet dragon upgrade was "the end of the road".

 

[Eric Santiago]

In the email I received from red it stated that the scarlet dragon upgrade was "the end of the road".

Check RECON, its stated that there is a WEAPON path.

I will wait till its released and on the field before considering.

I love my Scarlet MX

 

[Michael Mastroserio]

In the email I received from red it stated that the scarlet dragon upgrade was "the end of the road".

Just to be clear, I know there is now a weapon upgrade path for the scarlet dragon. I am referring to the first time Red made the announcement they were going to raise the price to upgrade to the scarlet dragon to 13,500. At that point the scarlet dragon was said to be the end of the upgrade paths, so that was the major point that made me go with the epic mx instead.

 

[JeanChristophe Dupasquier]

I was in this dilemma a few weeks ago but I decided to upgrade from Scarlet MX to Epic MX. I think I'd have more value for the same money and my inner voice says that I'll be way more happy with what the old Epic has to offer (fps, HDRx) than the Scarlet Dragon (color,DR, OLPF), knowing that I'll miss future upgrades. That said I hope to make enough money with my "new" camera to someday buy a (battle tested?) Epic Dragon and jump on the upgrade train again
My Epic should arrive this or next week and I can't describe how excited I am!

 

[Phil Holland]

In the email I received from red it stated that the scarlet dragon upgrade was "the end of the road".

Check RECON, its stated that there is a WEAPON path.

I will wait till its released and on the field before considering.

I love my Scarlet MX

Your'e both correct! In the world of upgrading to Dragon from Mysterium-X originally and still there is no path from Scarlet Dragon to Epic Dragon. This is what "end of the road meant" prior to Red announcing Weapon.

However, Red is apparently offering both Epic Dragon and Scarlet Dragon paths to Weapon. Just what that means yet? Don't know. I'm sure they are still hammering down details and specifics to make this make sense.

In this particular instance, this is a change for the better as Scarlet Dragon suddenly does have an upgrade path were previously for some time it was the "end of the road".

I was in this dilemma a few weeks ago but I decided to upgrade from Scarlet MX to Epic MX. I think I'd have more value for the same money and my inner voice says that I'll be way more happy with what the old Epic has to offer (fps, HDRx) than the Scarlet Dragon (color,DR, OLPF), knowing that I'll miss future upgrades. That said I hope to make enough money with my "new" camera to someday buy a (battle tested?) Epic Dragon and jump on the upgrade train again
My Epic should arrive this or next week and I can't describe how excited I am!

That's an entirely decent perspective. Epic Mysterium-X is a great camera. There's nothing it can't shoot really. It sounds like you've thought it out and have a plan.

The Mysterium-X to Dragon upgrades end this summer, but I like your thinking regarding getting to Dragon and maybe even Weapon down the line if things go well for you.

Red will be offering Weapon and Dragon for some time to come and so will the Weapon upgrade itself. They will be available alongside each other. It's good to have choices.

 

[Robert Ruffo New]

I was in this dilemma a few weeks ago but I decided to upgrade from Scarlet MX to Epic MX. I think I'd have more value for the same money and my inner voice says that I'll be way more happy with what the old Epic has to offer (fps, HDRx) than the Scarlet Dragon (color,DR, OLPF), knowing that I'll miss future upgrades. That said I hope to make enough money with my "new" camera to someday buy a (battle tested?) Epic Dragon and jump on the upgrade train again
My Epic should arrive this or next week and I can't describe how excited I am!

The Epic MX is my favorite camera, from any camera company, overall, period, and I've shot with pretty much all of the pro cameras out there, even the pre-F35 Genesis. Sure sometimes you want a Phantom for ultra slo-mo, a Go Pro to put on a helmet, or whatever, but if I had to be stuck with just one camera for the rest of my career, and had to choose amongst all of what is out there today, I would choose exactly what is headed in the mail to you. Congrats!

 

[JeanChristophe Dupasquier]

Thanks guys, I'm so glad I made this decision! Its funny that the original Epic is quite old (mesured to how fast technology usually gets outdated) but still one of the best tools out there to this day. There really isn't something comparable to RED cameras, not even at higher price ranges when it comes to features (5K, RAW, HDR, fps) and efficiency (REDCODE, small modular package). And having a comunity like Reduser is a nice bonus on top
The only thing is: the waiting is killing me! Heheh

 

[Robert Ruffo New]

Thanks guys, I'm so glad I made this decision! Its funny that the original Epic is quite old (mesured to how fast technology usually gets outdated) but still one of the best tools out there to this day. There really isn't something comparable to RED cameras, not even at higher price ranges when it comes to features (5K, RAW, HDR, fps) and efficiency (REDCODE, small modular package). And having a comunity like Reduser is a nice bonus on top
The only thing is: the waiting is killing me! Heheh

Well, let's put it this way, if you shoot with a 5D or a BM camera, or many other cameras, no matter how good you are, the time will come when your camera will screw up a shot for you (moire, surprise noise, etc. etc.), where really the camera will be the weak link of your entire shoot. With Epic MX, as long as you get the right IR filters when it's hot outside, that will never happen. When the shot looks inadequate, you'll at least know it's not the camera's fault, ever. What else do you want?

 

[PJ Porter]

I'm right along with you man, Are you getting the Rocket with it as well? I'm hoping they allow a SCARLET DRAGON - to - EPIC DRAGON Upgrade, because if that's the case I say SCARLET now with RocketX and EPIC later, especially if you're on a bit of a budget, like myself. I'm not sure if I will have enough funds for both, and I want a much faster workflow.

With that being said, SCARLET DRAGON NAB/Post-NAB might be a better choice, ONLY IF SCARLET Dragon to EPIC Dragon is possible by then.

Hi Everyone,

I am in a bit of a pinch. I was just preparing to upgrade from my scarlet to an epic Dragon when all hell broke loose. It seemed so simple, two weeks ago. Now I am wondering whether I should upgrade to a Scarlet Dragon for $9500 and wait and see what happens or spend the 19K and just get the Epic Dragon. Getting the higher FPS was a big selling point for me. These are the questions keeping up at night.

Thanks for any input shared.
Josh

 

[sam karr]

I have a scarlet dragon and I think I'm done with upgrades. The scarlet mx was 15000€, the dragon upgrade 10000€. It seems there will not be any scarlet weapon, it probably means a 20000€ upgrade to come. I already paid the equivalent of 1000€/month for my camera. If the upgrade to weapon is 20000€ I will have paid 45000€. More than an alexa mini. And, as things change fast in the Red world, that money is lost for resale value. I see perfect Red one MXs for 3000-3500$ now. I see hvx200s still go on eBay for 1000$. Of course we make some money with the camera but selling our gear to buy some new one had always been part of these jobs too, and I'm afraid Arri is a better horse for that. What people are complaining about regarding arri, the fact they change so slowly, is also their strength, you will get a very decent price if you sell your amira in 2-3 years. Anyway the scarlet dragon is more than capable, my choice now is either keep it knowing that I will not sell it in the future or sell it now and invest the weapon money into an arri. That's my dilemma.

 

[Phil Holland]

I have a scarlet dragon and I think I'm done with upgrades. The scarlet mx was 15000€, the dragon upgrade 10000€. It seems there will not be any scarlet weapon, it probably means a 20000€ upgrade to come. I already paid the equivalent of 1000€/month for my camera. If the upgrade to weapon is 20000€ I will have paid 45000€. More than an alexa mini. And, as things change fast in the Red world, that money is lost for resale value. I see perfect Red one MXs for 3000-3500$ now. I see hvx200s still go on eBay for 1000$. Of course we make some money with the camera but selling our gear to buy some new one had always been part of these jobs too, and I'm afraid Arri is a better horse for that. What people are complaining about regarding arri, the fact they change so slowly, is also their strength, you will get a very decent price if you sell your amira in 2-3 years. Anyway the scarlet dragon is more than capable, my choice now is either keep it knowing that I will not sell it in the future or sell it now and invest the weapon money into an arri. That's my dilemma.

I don't think you'll get a good price for your Amira in 2-3 years, but you didn't hear that from me.

 

[Brian Boyer]

I have a scarlet dragon and I think I'm done with upgrades. The scarlet mx was 15000€, the dragon upgrade 10000€. It seems there will not be any scarlet weapon, it probably means a 20000€ upgrade to come. I already paid the equivalent of 1000€/month for my camera. If the upgrade to weapon is 20000€ I will have paid 45000€. More than an alexa mini. And, as things change fast in the Red world, that money is lost for resale value. I see perfect Red one MXs for 3000-3500$ now. I see hvx200s still go on eBay for 1000$. Of course we make some money with the camera but selling our gear to buy some new one had always been part of these jobs too, and I'm afraid Arri is a better horse for that. What people are complaining about regarding arri, the fact they change so slowly, is also their strength, you will get a very decent price if you sell your amira in 2-3 years. Anyway the scarlet dragon is more than capable, my choice now is either keep it knowing that I will not sell it in the future or sell it now and invest the weapon money into an arri. That's my dilemma.

I think your biggest dilemma right now stems from the conclusions you're drawing from your assumptions. I don't think it has been stated by RED that there won't be an entry-level spec'd Weapon. What has been stated is the names "Scarlet" and "Epic" won't be used to delineate Weapon models.

Jarred said pre-NAB Dragon owners (like yourself) can expect a significant double-savings on Weapon upgrade pricing compared to post-NAB announcement pricing or buying one outright. 20,000€ for an upgrade doesn't sound like a double-savings deal to me, let alone something that most Scarlet Dragon owners can afford.

Jarred did state upgrading from Scarlet Dragon to a Carbon Fiber Weapon would be more than a $6K-$10K upgrade (as someone speculated the Weapon upgrade range will be) but that makes total sense seeing how a CF Epic Dragon already costs a $25K premium over the regular Epic Dragon.

I think RED may be counting on the over-estimation of pricing to make the actual pricing seem all that more awesome and achievable when finally announced. A wave of relief will wash over the handwringers and those considering jumping ship.

 

[Will Wernick]

Just paid for my Dragon upgrade. Couldn't see any other sensible path. Actually using a scarlet dragon put me over the edge, not to mention the weapon perks. People go back and forth about compression, etc. But the 5k 48fps footage I have seen is more than acceptable. The funny thing to think about for me: I never felt like I was out-shooting my scarlet, ever. I upgraded mostly to protect my original investment. The nice perk is the bump in image quality and flexibility.

Anyone else want to chime in here? Unless you run a rental only business, have you honestly felt like your scarlet is holding you back? Or wasn't worth every penny you spent on it? Even if you can't afford the upgrade, you still have one hell of an amazing camera, and it is 1/3 the size of the competition, 1/3 the cost (conservatively) and shoots more usable resolution then their latest.

 

[Terry VerHaar]

Just paid for my Dragon upgrade. Couldn't see any other sensible path. Actually using a scarlet dragon put me over the edge, not to mention the weapon perks. People go back and forth about compression, etc. But the 5k 48fps footage I have seen is more than acceptable. The funny thing to think about for me: I never felt like I was out-shooting my scarlet, ever. I upgraded mostly to protect my original investment. The nice perk is the bump in image quality and flexibility.

Anyone else want to chime in here? Unless you run a rental only business, have you honestly felt like your scarlet is holding you back? Even if you can't afford the upgrade, you still have one hell of an amazing camera, and it is 1/3 the size of the competition, 1/3 the cost (conservatively) and shoots more usable resolution then their latest.

I am totally in your same boat; couldn't have said it better. I love my Scarlet but, as you say, plan to "protect my investment" with the Scarlet Dragon upgrade.

 

[sam karr]

Anyone else want to chime in here? Unless you run a rental only business, have you honestly felt like your scarlet is holding you back? Even if you can't afford the upgrade, you still have one hell of an amazing camera, and it is 1/3 the size of the competition, 1/3 the cost (conservatively) and shoots more usable resolution then their latest.

I love my scarlet for many different reasons. But I must admit that sometimes I'm a bit frustrated by the colors in post. Even with dragon. I guess it's not a problem for people being mostly into resolution. I'm more into colors unfortunately.
Many Arri users are criticizing Red without knowing anything about it and never even touching it. But the same thing can be said about many Red owners regarding Arri.
People who never tried an Arri should download this footage and play with it a few minutes . It's just logC in prores, random shot. I'm just frustrated, as much as I love everything else from the scarlet, that I can't get what I get here just by playing with the levels and saturation in 10 sec. Ultra separated colors, gorgeous lips, one million tonalities in the skins, super green greens, super blue blues, perfect balance of the saturation everywhere in the image. Getting something as filmic and gorgeous on the Red for a random footage like this one is not that easy. It's more about struggling in post most of the time, and you have to be already very careful when shooting, but even at the end you don't get these colors. Let's be honest, the majority of the red footages on Vimeo doesn't look good colorwise. And I saw many great looking Hollywood features shot on Red but there is always a heavy color correction, a tint applied to the whole movie that is hiding the colors, or heavy saturation that make the skins monochrome without the subtleties of the skin.
So, to answer your question, yes I feel sometimes that it is holding me back, as much as I love the shape, the size, all these crazy technical stuffs inside, the resolution, the concept, the spirit & the cost. Now that Red is in advance on many levels compared to the competitors, I would like them to ease off on the resolution race and to put their genius a bit more on colors.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wm1VZLRV0k0 (the link to the original footage is in the "about" text)

 

[Will Wernick]

In my experience, and from seeing what has come out of these cameras, good color has much more to do with lighting and correct post workflow, than anything else. These cameras can produce beautiful color, if the person using them knows what they are doing. It does take more work and know how. It isn't automatic. But I don't believe it is the camera holding us back in this respect. This isn't meant to be inflammatory, I need to remind myself of it all the time

QUOTE=sam karr;1483317]I love my scarlet for many different reasons. But I must admit that sometimes I'm a bit frustrated by the colors in post. Even with dragon. I guess it's not a problem for people being mostly into resolution. I'm more into colors unfortunately.
Many Arri users are criticizing Red without knowing anything about it and never even touching it. But the same thing can be said about many Red owners regarding Arri.
People who never tried an Arri should download this footage and play with it a few minutes . It's just logC in prores, random shot. I'm just frustrated, as much as I love everything else from the scarlet, that I can't get what I get here just by playing with the levels and saturation in 10 sec. Ultra separated colors, gorgeous lips, one million tonalities in the skins, super green greens, super blue blues, perfect balance of the saturation everywhere in the image. Getting something as filmic and gorgeous on the Red for a random footage like this one is not that easy. It's more about struggling in post most of the time, and you have to be already very careful when shooting, but even at the end you don't get these colors. Let's be honest, the majority of the red footages on Vimeo doesn't look good colorwise. And I saw many great looking Hollywood features shot on Red but there is always a heavy color correction, a tint applied to the whole movie that is hiding the colors, or heavy saturation that make the skins monochrome without the subtleties of the skin.
So, to answer your question, yes I feel sometimes that it is holding me back, as much as I love the shape, the size, all these crazy technical stuffs inside, the resolution, the concept, the spirit & the cost. Now that Red is in advance on many levels compared to the competitors, I would like them to ease off on the resolution race and to put their genius a bit more on colors.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wm1VZLRV0k0 (the link to the original footage is in the "about" text)[/QUOTE]

 

[Brian Boyer]

And I saw many great looking Hollywood features shot on Red but there is always a heavy color correction, a tint applied to the whole movie that is hiding the colors, or heavy saturation that make the skins monochrome without the subtleties of the skin.
So, to answer your question, yes I feel sometimes that it is holding me back, as much as I love the shape, the size, all these crazy technical stuffs inside, the resolution, the concept, the spirit & the cost. Now that Red is in advance on many levels compared to the competitors, I would like them to ease off on the resolution race and to put their genius a bit more on colors.

Shot on Dragon. Check it: http://trailers.apple.com/trailers/lions_gate/theageofadaline/ Watch both trailers.

There's a very nice combo of neutral and stylized grading with very natural looking skin tones.



Also, I just noticed that Jarred addressed your concern over tiered Weapon models directly:

So it seems that what I was afraid of will happen. The death of the scarlet in a near future. No scarlet weapon in that list. Probably a very high price for the upgrade then, that most scarlet users can't afford. I hope I' m wrong. It was a nice adventure anyway.

There is more than one Weapon and there is a path for Scarlet (dragon) owners to go to Weapon.