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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

One Scarlet owners upgrade dilemma

J

Josh Tyron

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Hi Everyone,

I am in a bit of a pinch. I was just preparing to upgrade from my scarlet to an epic Dragon when all hell broke loose. It seemed so simple, two weeks ago. Now I am wondering whether I should upgrade to a Scarlet Dragon for $9500 and wait and see what happens or spend the 19K and just get the Epic Dragon. Getting the higher FPS was a big selling point for me. These are the questions keeping up at night.

Thanks for any input shared.
Josh


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Well - I was somewhat in your same shoes; planning to go first to Epic, when the news of Weapon hit. I have decided to go Scarlet Dragon before NAB. I simply don't have the funds to do both upgrades now. However, I do think that being at the level of Epic Dragon prior to NAB will buy you some advantages in the future. Since it has been said that the path to Weapon is through Dragon, I'd make sure to get there before NAB just to get the maximum advantage. If you think having Epic Dragon (while you wait for Weapon) will meet your own needs better than Scarlet Dragon, and you have the funds, then I'd do the two step upgrade now.
 
Josh, I think you should upgrade to Scarlet Dragon, save some $$$ for now until there is more clarity, and rent my Dragon body (at a very attractive price, lol) when you need the FPS. Call me to discuss...
 
If you need the high frame rates now, you might as well get the Epic Dragon. Going Scarlet Dragon to weapon will cost more than from Epic Dragon. It is possible it will less then an additional $9,500, in which case you will save by waiting, but will not have the extra frames until you to the weapon upgrade, which won't happen till later in the year.
 
If you don't badly need the Epic now, I'd wait and get the Scarlet D.
I wanted to go Epic-X and then Epic Dragon but now I'm moving to Scarlet D because I can't clear enough funds before NAB.

As you will be able to upgrade to "top" Weapon from a Scarlet Dragon, you will still be able to go up all the way. So you won't "loose" anything when going Scarlet D as far as we know for the time being. It might only be that the Epic level Weapon is not in your budget at the time it comes out or that it will take some time until it's your turn to upgrade and that you might need to stick to Scarlet for longer than you planned.

We can't predict what RED will do, so you should base your decision on what makes most sense for your business model. Will Epic make you more money? Do you need the higher frame rate?

That said, you don't need to do anything right now. You can still wait and make the decision during or after NAB. We don't know what the credit towards WEAPON will be. If your trying to secure that, see above ;)
 
For me the biggest fear is... if I upgrade to scarlet dragon... which I am not impressed with. Then the next upgrade is weapon, and I do not feel that there will be a low end weapon. I think there will be weapon carbon, and normal weapon. I think they will both be the highend of red, as they should be. The problem is if I upgrade to dragon, then I am stuck basically at scarlet dragon due to the fact I now I will not be able to afford the jump to weapon.
 
I suggest you go Scarlet Dragon. Save $$$ for the eventual Weapon upgrade. 120fps slow mo @ 5k isn't worth the extra $$$ at this point. Hopefully Weapon will give 240 fps at the low end version and 1000 fps at the Carbon level. You can also spend the extra cash on lenses. I love my Scarlet Dragon and trust me you will be happy with one as well.
 
Josh, I'm in the same boat as you (as well as from GR)... and I think just going up to the Scarlet Dragon and then waiting to see what exactly is announced at/after NAB is the route to go. I'd also take Tom up on his offer! Now I just need to work out some sort of commission plan with Tom... something where I earn "points" toward renting all of the toys he's collected lately! ;)
 
Another thing to think about is if you have to upgrade to mini mag as well. You media costs will take a hit at some point on your way to Weapon, if you haven't already changed.
 
I guess I am just a little under whelmed at the idea of the Scarlet Dragon. Yes I get a bump in frame rates and I do get usable 5k. Does the dragon sensor at 5k look so much better than the a Epic MX? I am also worried about how long I would be shooting on it before I can even get the chance to upgrade to a Weapon. Going to the Epic MX or Dragon at least feels like a new camera.
 
Greg Barley said:
Josh, I'm in the same boat as you (as well as from GR)... and I think just going up to the Scarlet Dragon and then waiting to see what exactly is announced at/after NAB is the route to go. I'd also take Tom up on his offer! Now I just need to work out some sort of commission plan with Tom... something where I earn "points" toward renting all of the toys he's collected lately! ;)
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Thanks, Greg! Whatever you guys need. ;)
 
Josh Tyron said:
Does the dragon sensor at 5k look so much better than the a Epic MX? I am also worried about how long I would be shooting on it before I can even get the chance to upgrade to a Weapon. Going to the Epic MX or Dragon at least feels like a new camera.
Click to expand...

Moving from Scarlet MX to Scarlet Dragon felt like almost as big a leap in moving from a DSLR into the RED ecosystem. The Dragon sensor is stunning, and the color science feels very "what you see is what you get"... with a bit of organic pop and magic. I spent a lot of time trying to balance out slight green color casts in MX after filming, but with Dragon it feels like I'm able to spend more time artistically enhancing the picture on the first color-pass instead of fixing issues. The grain is also so much smoother on Dragon. I've had my fair share of issues getting MX noise to look smooth on well-lit shots at 800 ISO. Don't forget about the reworked REDCODE and the compression being much cleaner on Dragon.

I find that usable 5K is a big step up, even if it's a singular number increase. Shooting 5K and finishing 4K has left pretty sharp results. Also, I personally find the frame rate bump as well more than significant... 48FPS at 5K is perfect for all my project needs (Scarlet MX was at 48FPS / 3K!), alongside the other slow motion offerings and HDR at 5K. If I actually needed the extra speed, I'd probably just rent another camera body for a day... But the current options are great for what my projects call for.

Honestly - at the end of the day, it's all determined by what you need and what your projects require. Don't spend the extra $10K if you don't need to, because I'm sure the price discrepancy between Scarlet Dragon and Epic Dragons moving to the same tier Weapon will still be around that ten thousand. Who knows... it may even be cheaper. (Please, I hope so - I've got SSDs to upgrade to MiniMags!)

At the end of the day, I don't believe RED will alienate their fans at the bottom (pun intended) with Weapon. I do agree that the "Scarlet" brand will probably seize to exist alongside "Epic," but I'm still going to assume that there will be multiple versions of Weapon - Good, Better, and Best. A singular design that won't divide the market between different models, only different feature sets. Not everyone needs a sunroof and that silly camera that helps you back up the car.
 
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Anthony Berenato Jr said:
Moving from Scarlet MX to Scarlet Dragon felt like almost as big a leap in moving from a DSLR into the RED ecosystem.
[...]
I find that usable 5K is a big step up, even if it's a singular number increase. Shooting 5K and finishing 4K has left pretty sharp results. Also, I personally find the frame rate bump as well more than significant... 48FPS at 5K is perfect for all my project needs (Scarlet MX was at 48FPS / 3K!), alongside the other slow motion offerings and HDR at 5K. If I actually needed the extra speed, I'd probably just rent another camera body for a day... But the current options are great for what my projects call for.
Click to expand...
Don't forget Scarlet Dragon can do 5K WS @60fps and 4K WS @76FPS, compared to Scarlet MX 4K WS @30fps.
 
I went from Scarlet to Scarlet Dragon. I am extremely happy with my decision. Going higher than 60 frames per second is hardly an everyday situation. You can always rent an Epic for that.
I think you can get better things done with a Scarlet Dragon than an Epic MX right now, then switch to Weapon when you have the chance. It´s the cheapest ticket you can pay to stay in the race and see what´s next.
 
If you can afford an Epic Dragon, surely it's a no brainer?

You could rent it to your mates inbetween your own shoots and with the money, upgrade to weapon later in the year with the rental money. That's what I did and now I've somehow got to epic dragon, happy days. Rentals are relatively easy with epic as everyone wants the extra fps & scarlet's crop sensor / more prone to noise floor makes scarlet doesn't always rent as well.

And epic dragon is more camera than most people need and if you're jumping from scarlet to epic dragon, you will soon realise that the images are so good that you're in no rush to upgrade to weapon anyway. Plus all your accessories still carry over & the upgrade price has been reduced down again right?

However, at the end of the day, it's a big decision & a big investment so it really all comes down to your business model.

My two pence.

Craig Lees
ED UK
3dstories.co.uk
 
Thank you to all that have given your response. Especially those who have made the jump to Scarlet Dragon. Great to hear that first hand experience.


Anthony Berenato Jr said:
I spent a lot of time trying to balance out slight green color casts in MX after filming, but with Dragon it feels like I'm able to spend more time artistically enhancing the picture on the first color-pass instead of fixing issues. The grain is also so much smoother on Dragon. I've had my fair share of issues getting MX noise to look smooth on well-lit shots at 800 ISO. Don't forget about the reworked REDCODE and the compression being much cleaner on Dragon.
Click to expand...

I know that green all too well!
 
Akin A said:
Don't forget Scarlet Dragon can do 5K WS @60fps and 4K WS @76FPS, compared to Scarlet MX 4K WS @30fps.
Click to expand...

I did not know this. I shoot a lot in WS and those fps actually make a bit of difference to me. When I rent an Epic I spend a lot of time at 72fps.
 
 
Akin A said:
Don't forget Scarlet Dragon can do 5K WS @60fps and 4K WS @76FPS, compared to Scarlet MX 4K WS @30fps.
Click to expand...

You're completely right - can't believe I forgot to mention. For most features / projects that are cropped, this is perfect for not deflowering a 4K deliverable.
 
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