Obsolescence obsolete...

[Christoffer Glans]

My alternative story if Red didn't exist would be that Arri came out with a worse digital camera that needed a box to record to like the Origin. The resolution would still be 1080p for almost every camera on the market and real 4K wouldn't happen before 2020.

The consequences of Red releasing the Red One have had a huge impact on the digital cinema landscape. I'm not even sure if "digital cinema" would have been a concept back then because that's really a term that gained popular due to Red. There's so much that Red changed in the industry that all the other camera manufacturers were forced to follow. Red pushed the industry into what it is today.

 

[Patrick Grossien]

I've seen the results of A.D.D. and I'm impressed. So, as ignorant as I am on a lot of this stuff, I'd say that algorithms have, indeed, improved significantly.

This is awkward. I didn't post to what you responded that's a quote from Gavin's post. Something is mixed up.

 

[M Most]

My Prediction if RED Didn't exist...

I don't know how old you are or how long you've been around this industry, but my guess is possibly "not very" in both cases. Or perhaps you just have a short memory. The fact is that other companies were already evolving their products before Red came into the picture. Panavision had already introduced the Genesis, which arguably had as much influence on the industry in terms of digital production acceptance as Red did, if not more. Arri had already introduced both the D20 and the D21, which ushered in RAW recording. All of these devices were single chip designs (Genesis with a "striped" filter array, and Arri with a Bayer sensor). Thomson was still around with the Viper (3 chip design), but the industry was already changing to single sensor designs for a few years before Red showed up. And digital projection was moving along on its own timetable with its own mission, very separate from camera development and the acceptance of digital cameras as a film alternative. Arri was already well on its way to developing what would become the Alexa (which is itself an evolved version of the D21), which to this day still dominates high end studio production for both broadcast and features.

Red did change the industry in a number of ways, but they didn't invent everything you now see. What they did do, and very effectively, is show that compression, properly done, is an acceptable compromise for achieving higher resolution captured images and forcing them through a post chain. They also drastically altered the price points of motion picture cameras, allowing a much lower barrier to entry, and thus accelerated the move towards larger capture formats. Of course, once you go down that slippery slope, it can get a bit out of hand, to the point where everyone thinks high end equipment and software should cost next to nothing (or actually nothing, as it does today in some cases). And to the point where even the instigators of such pricing policies are forced to play that game as well, which is not a particularly healthy atmosphere for manufacturers or continued research and development (you can't do those things without profitability, at least not for long...). So while I give Red an awful lot of credit for a lot of things, it is valuable to keep it in perspective.

 

[Bob Gundu]

Lets not forget Dalsa either. In any case, I agree that it is Redcode which continues to be at the heart of what RED is all about.

 

[Lauri Kettunen]

I think the only colorspace operation that RED even does in bayer space would be white balance. I would be pretty confident that 95% of RED's RAW settings are from a consistent RGB starting space.

Gavin, in my understanding exposure, (which is same as ) ISO and color changes happen on linear data –this is what Deanna told me some years ago. If white balance were the only "colorspace operation", everybody who tends to exposure to the right would notice it sooner or later. What comes to Nokia, when they developed their high res camera, they were definitely aware of what RED had done.

 

[Maz Mawlawi]

To this day there is still not one camera company like RED... I'm not a fan boy by any means and I have wondered and questions some of their decisions before...by I do have the utmost respect for RED and truly think they care more about their customers than anyone else....that is why I have brand loyalty for RED. Let's hope they never become like Sony, canon or Arri!

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

OMG, dude, what an oversimplification. Without RED, we simply would not be where we are today, period. As far as raw is concerned, are you serious ? 95%, really ? I couldn't disagree more.
A

It's not a question of agreement or disagreement. Everything in the RAW settings after "Colorspace" (?Except for Sharpness/Noise Reduction?) happens post-debayer in RGB colorspace. I'm not even 100% certain that the "Colorspace" matrix isn't also applied on top of a debayered RGB image. Gamma, curves, gain, saturation etc... all done in RGB color. So if you had a debayered neutral RGB image that RED starts with you could do at least 95% of the operations (that RED themselves do in RGB). That's not a knock on RED, that's just how you have to process images, they're doing it right.

I've seen the results of A.D.D. and I'm impressed. So, as ignorant as I am on a lot of this stuff, I'd say that algorithms have, indeed, improved significantly.

I run almost everything through ADD and it's awesome, but how much of ADD is actually done in Bayer Pattern space and how much is done in RGB post-debayer space? We'll probably never know but it would look like there is some optical flow juju going on which would suggest to me at least that it's actually an RGB space operation not necessarily performed in bayer space. I'll give you that one. But if it is done in bayer pattern space then it's the first thing that's been done in 7 years that is impossible to do in RGB space--and even then, optical flow denoising isn't that much worse than ADD with the correct noise profile.

What you have is "4K resolution" in cheapo quality. T

Today's cheapo quality is tomorrow's breakthrough camera. Your average flagship phone today has more capability than the DVX100B. You could for a few hundred dollars make a business of disassembling Lumia smartphones and making XLR inputs. Or you could spend a couple hundred more dollars on a GH4 etc. The sub $1,000 market is shooting 4k these days and it's not "bad" quality it's just not up to professional standards. It's also entirely disconnected technologically from high end cinema. Arri's pricing isn't pushing down the price of the GH4. The opposite is true though, RED benefited enormously from the comoditization of high end electronics. Thank god for gaming rigs wanting SSDs or we would never have seen flash memory affordable for cameras. That's why Tape Decks cost $100,000 that everyone bemoans. Let's be clear, we wouldn't be using tape decks these days no matter what RED did. They just aren't fast enough for modern production and nobody in their right mind would pick tape over a solid state recording device with flash prices what they are today.

I love my RED, I'm just saying they didn't have a monopoly on good engineers and they still don't. It's kind of insulting to everyone else to assign credit for every single advancement in the film industry, I'm sure even RED doesn't claim that. To say that in 2015 you would still be shooting with your HVX is patently absurd since the HVX was a huge improvement on the DVX. And there were other movements in the industry when RED started making waves. The Viper had a 4:4:4 flash recording system that had a 9.2megapixel sensor. The REDOne was only an 8.5 megapixel sensor. The Dalsa and the SI recorded bayer pattern. In fact the SI already had a lightweight wavelet codec that could record RAW when the REDOne launched. And the same year that the REDOne launched a bayer pattern solid state recording wavelet encoded camera won best cinematography. I can't think of a much better endorsement of the general technological concept. It's a bit like Apple, it's easy to get carried away assigning Apple credit for what they accomplished. They didn't invent touchscreens, they didn't even invent smartphones, they weren't the first to add a decent camera, they weren't the first to have a browser and they weren't the first to offer mobile web. They came out right on the cusp of a whole bunch of technologies that were maturing and becoming commercially available that they didn't invent and they were able to take advantage of not having a legacy system to support. The iphone and the RED are very similar. Right time, Right Place, Good engineering and a willingness to start their thinking from a clean slate not encumbered by past "correct" but outdated choices. That's in my opinion the success of RED. And like the iPhone RED forced everyone to accellerate their timelines by slowly transitioning from their old systems to their new systems economically impossible.

What RED didn't do though was create Blackmagic. Blackmagic came straight from the DSLR market. I don't think I"ve ever used a blackmagic product on my RED except for my hyperdeck.

 

[Blair S. Paulsen]

Inflection reflection

Inflection reflection

Most/all of the established camera manufacturers had little incentive to push the technology forward rapidly before RED. Development cycles were coordinated with the anticipated working life of existing cameras, keeping up with competitors who were also happy to go at a steady pace, etc.

Jim was in the unique position of not having to prove the viability, and more critically, the profitability, of the camera he wanted to build in advance of starting the project. The risk was his own, no fiduciary responsibility to shareholders. This happened to coincide with a time frame in which high resolution Bayer/CMOS tech was on a steep trajectory due to it''s popularity for digital still cameras. Jim's vision, leadership and bank led to Red Digital Cinema which, if nothing else, pushed hard on the "fast forward" button.

I've been a cameraman for 4 decades and the RedOne totally re-energized my love for making compelling images. Because of that, I do have some brand loyalty and when I thank Jim, Jarred and the rest of the RedTeam it's sincere. I'll also freely admit that I look at what RED can offer first when speccing a project. That said, if another camera system suits a particular project better, then I act like a professional and use it instead.

Cheers - #19

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

One thing to keep in mind though was that prior to RED cameras were using proprietary components and designing something like the DVX was an incredibly involved and expensive process. It can't be underappreciated how much commodity hardware has helped drop the price. For instance I'm working on a cool little accessory for RED and I literally couldn't have made it for a fraction of the price I am even 6 months ago because there were no mass produced commodity components to do what I needed. P2 memory was super expensive because it was custom designed. Blackmagic is able to use off-the-shelf hard drives now to record 4k! RED used Compact Flash. The latest qualcomm chips support 4k. The cameras might be junk but you don't have to use a smartphone camera to use the latest ARM chips to process 4k. You can get a 2watt ARM SBC capable of processing a 4k sensor for under $100 today. The iphone is an ARM chip with probably a qualcom modem and micron memory and a sony sensor etc etc... everything these days is commodity and yet just like there is clearly a difference between an iphone and a samsung galaxy. It would be crazy to have expected that Moore's law would affect all electronics--except for digital cinema.

Cameras are now computers. That's the revolution that RED was able to jumpstart. Computers are a Trillion Dollar a year industry. Now there is a trillion dollars worth of customers funding R&D to making our teenie tiny niche industry's essential components. That's pretty awesome. Most of the component manufacturers don't even know RED or any of us professional film makers exist. But they're tirelessly working away to accidentally drive down prices and push the performance capabilities of their chips which solve a lot of our problems.

 

[Jake Wilganowski]

Man add is pretty incredible, would love for it to be more widely integrated

 

[Mike Nagel]

Cell phone cameras are advancing faster than anything else. They have pretty much cannibalized the still camera market. A cell phone over the next couple of years will most likely outperform a RED ONE

sorry Stacey, but if picture you deciding on shooting the next series of "Lighthouses of the Pacific Northwest" on either a 2017 cell phone or the R1 (from 2007 w/ latest fw) which shoots not only RAW but REDCODE RAW, I don't think u'll choose the cell... ;-)

mere pixel count is just one out of many factors in terms of final IQ - Alexa is a good example...

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Your living room sounds pretty boring if you don't have passionately divergent debates at home.

 

[Phil Holland]

Erg... For the sake of sanity let's be a little bit more on topic.

Reduser is a public forum to discuss Red cameras, motion picture technology, tools, workflows, and techniques. All are welcome, differing opinions and all. No personal attacks and a general respect for others is expected.

Do note that this is an international community and some patience is occasionally necessary as there's usually something lost in translation.

Back to the subject at hand gentlemen.

 

[Mike P.]

I think the only way to get back on topic is to drop another Weapon picture or new tidbit of Weapon-info... <hicks>It's the only way to be sure...</hicks>



(..it was worth try, right?)

 

[Martin Stevens]

Two things...

More Info and Photos of and about "Weapon" please..... AND....

David Battistella is awesome, and one of my favorite RedUsers.

 

[Sergio Perez]

On a lighter note, since I really like the aesthetics of my Epic (color, Design (angular) ), I'm really curious, and looking forward to where they are taking the form factor and overall looks of the camera. Yes, not that important, but, hey, a bit of eye candy wouldn't hurt on the looks part!

 

[Antony Newman]

I love the rate with which our understanding of light detection pushes on - how exotic materials like Black Phospherous might one day form sensors that count the number of photons that strike the sensor, and how people who have talent spilling out of them - devote their lives to make this happen.

Minaturisation of the building blocks we need to capture image will ultimately squeeze ASICs, CPUs & GPUs into the space of an iPhone. Super fast Stacked memory shift our focus away from expensive media as their price melts away; Glass coating of lithiium sulphur batteries will finally realise batteries that are 1/10th the weigt - And we will all be searching for the next 'big thing' that is stopping us from enjoying the creative art that we are all part of.

AJ

 

[albert rudnicki]

I miss Jim's cleverness so much on this forum.

 

[Elsie N]

Yeah, his personal belief that pre-planned obsolescence is obscene has been not only the key to RED's success but has transferred to the customer base as well. His posts were never complicated... straight from the shoulder solutions or comments.

When some would try to make the use of his current model at the time, complicated... he would post how to utilize the camera shooter-friendly. For me, that was invaluable during the early years.

 

[Scott Crawley]

I miss Jim's cleverness so much on this forum.

He is missed that is for sure, and of course he came back pre-NAB to pump the new thing up. He is lightning in a bottle and little Jim can go a LONG way. Look at the stir he made with just a wee tiny post.