Obsolescence obsolete...

[Mark L. Pederson]

Bought the 7" Touch screen the other day.

Sure, it wasn't cheap, but man... What a beautiful image when i put it on my Dragon.

Totally worth the extra $, and my 5" is going to a good friend who needed to buy one.

Yeah - the image side by side with 5" is like night and day. No banding, better color and WAY sharper.

I'm just going to keep begging Jarred to please make ANOTHER VERSION without the hinge - which adds considerably to the cost. TV & Features always put it on a NOGA arm and the hinge is just in the way.

Just want LEMO receptacle on the bottom or back - and a 1/4-20 or 3/8-16 on bottom and/or back.

Same panel, same board - just new enclosure and the LEMO without the hinge. LOTS of high end folks would be very happy.

Please .....

 

[Tommaso Alvisi]

Same panel, same board - just new enclosure and the LEMO without the hinge.

Yeah, please!!!!!

 

[Patrick Grossien]

Yeah - the image side by side with 5" is like night and day. No banding, better color and WAY sharper.

I'm just going to keep begging Jarred to please make ANOTHER VERSION without the hinge - which adds considerably to the cost. TV & Features always put it on a NOGA arm and the hinge is just in the way.

Just want LEMO receptacle on the bottom or back - and a 1/4-20 or 3/8-16 on bottom and/or back.

Same panel, same board - just new enclosure and the LEMO without the hinge. LOTS of high end folks would be very happy.

Please .....

Reminds me of: the old R1 Pro LCD

 

[Patrick Grossien]

I think a V-mount on the back of the LCD would be awesome (if they keep that same backing on the Weapon).

I'd rather have a Sony NP-F or REDVOLT Battery Mount on the back.
You could always attach the accessory v mount to a 1/4-20 (or a rosette or a rail clamp or...)

 

[Patrick Grossien]

Dunkan, note Jarred specifically talks about board development for our displays. To control our camera via touchscreen, you need a board (or boards) to interface between the camera and the display. Therein lies the development costs for an LCD, for example.

My guess is the "similar" products don't control the camera? A big difference between full UI and a video out.

I guess the question is more a comparison of e.g. a 7" F&V $600 display vs. something like the RED PRO 7" LCD which doesn't have touch functions either. To me it's numbers in sale, production in China vs. USA, etc. and also : quality.

It's hard to explain to people that quality costs what it costs. Or even that products just cost what they cost. With lenses for example you can compare a Samyang/Rokinon to a Master Prime or a Leica Summilux and people would get it because they can see the result in the image. They can choose if they want cheap and ok vs expensive and pretty much perfect. This is not as easy with electronic devices. Why is an iPhone more expensive than Samsung's devices? Why is a Mac more expensive than a PC? The list and the discussion has always been there and goes on and on.

One very easy way to get people into arguments in the camera world is: Why is ARRI more expensive than RED? To me it's definitely not because of the quality, and with that I can easily start a shitstorm of angry comments...

I mainly see cheaper products as an option and not as a reason to claim "RED needs to produce cheaper products because somebody else does it". If you want cheap(er) just get a third party product for viewing and get a cheaper controller option like a redmote or foolcontrol with the Hotlink. It's not like there aren't any options out there. Want a cheaper rig? Look elsewhere and you always get what you pay for.

I guess for RED it's tough because you guys produce awesome cameras for extremely competitive prices (not saying cheap) and some of the acc are on par with higher pricing companies products. The ones which are cheaper will never be part of such a discussion entering the pricing argumentations will hardly convince people otherwise.

I just want to remind folks that RED always tries to do the right thing for the customer. Even price wise if they can. Price drops on the EPIC MX and the dragon upgrades just now, price drops on media when it was possible, the new cheaper 240GB mags, the battle tested products... So I believe that if RED will be able to offer a bargain on any product, they will. Everything else just costs what it costs.

 

[Chosei Funahara]

We Miss Jim So Much, Nice to hear from you,

 

[Lee Saxon]

I guess the question is more a comparison of e.g. a 7" F&V $600 display vs. something like the RED PRO 7" LCD which doesn't have touch functions either. To me it's numbers in sale, production in China vs. USA, etc. and also : quality.

Plus the fact that most people use 8-bit or less panels.

 

[Fredrik Callinggard]

Yeah - the image side by side with 5" is like night and day. No banding, better color and WAY sharper.

I'm just going to keep begging Jarred to please make ANOTHER VERSION without the hinge - which adds considerably to the cost. TV & Features always put it on a NOGA arm and the hinge is just in the way.

Just want LEMO receptacle on the bottom or back - and a 1/4-20 or 3/8-16 on bottom and/or back.

Same panel, same board - just new enclosure and the LEMO without the hinge. LOTS of high end folks would be very happy.

Please .....

Agree and the Lemo connector being in the back or on "Camera right" could conflict when shooting with EVF. Cables running along camera, sticking out in the back (if broken/goose neck), could be poking your head. If it's the Lemo cables that its always been and they're straight they're gonna parade upwards as if they were the eiffel tower . Or the cables that have to run over the lens to connect. If Lemo connector is used as front connection. It's an observation and without really holding it I might be wrong. Just seems as if it might be one of those things?

 

[Martin W]

Since we joined the party :

RED : RED ONE, RED ONE MX, Epic-X, Scarlet-X, Epic-M, Epic Dragon, Scarlet Dragon, Epic Dragon-M,Carbon Dragon, Weapon...

ARRI: D20, D21, Alexa, Alexa HD, Alexa Plus, Alexa Plus 4:3, Alexa M, Alexa XT, Alexa XT Plus , Alexa XT M, Alexa XT Studio, Amira, Amira Advanced, Amira Premium, Alexa Mini, Alexa XXX .

SONY: ( just the Cinealta ones that I can recall from memory) F900,F950, F300, F350, PMW-500, F800, EX1, EX3, F3, F23, F35, F5, F55, F65. I am sure i missed a couple in there.

I think you get my point. Yes technology is moving fast. It is hard to keep up. It is the world we live in. And I love it.

We help as much as we can with those technology transitions, much , much more than anyone else.[/QUOTE]

Please let's not confuse 3 versions of the Amira as 3 different cameras. 3 different image options yes. But one doesn't need to sell the body once they're ready to update to get to the "next level"
Furthermore where is canon in this list? C300 and now a c300mk2 5 years later. (factoring in delivery)

Owning an Amira, Epic Dragon and Canon C300 I can honestly say that the RDC has cost me the most in terms of an ancillary parts. From brackets, to media, to breakout ports.
Sure, Obsolescence-obsolete for the body, but what of all of it's support needed to kit out a proper package. Good images? Great, I'd say! No one's fighting you on this thread for that.
The problem is that every other camera here needs only a battery a lens and a piece of media and away you go.
At the very least you need a power port, a side SSD module, a lens Mount. Three items before you can get into a position that 98% of the aforementioned already come ready with.

Since the Red one there has been 5 forms of media, Proprietary CF, Spin Disk, Solid State, Red MAG, Mini MAG whereas I can only count 2 across Sony, 1 across Canon. None of which are
proprietary.

I left to do a series in August '14 with a company's Epix-X, while my camera was sent in for a Dragon update. I got back earlier this year (March'15) and without even putting one hand on my Dragon there was already a newer camera.

Red knows exactly what it's doing. As a Dragon owner I'm happy to of been part of the 9 month ride (since the sensor has been swapped out) but when I was down at NAB. I 've realized it's time for me to get off. So much so that in order to stay on the "ride" it is going to cost me (at the very least) not only 19K after my "trade in value" but the 5k in modular accessories to just make the old ones work, or trade up another 12k to get all the new gizmos (LOW END). Plus I need Mini Mags as the 1.8" don't seem to have support, there's another 10k. (And these are realistic costs BTW not just enough so one can scrape by with one card and just a touch screen no eyepiece, we're talking about a fully functioning camera.) Then we're still left with a new "remote" or whatever the new thing is called.

All of this wrapped in a very clever package called the "weapon" which thank christ that name is on our Carnets cause as if it wasn't hard enough crossing borders with "BOMB EVF" on our lists.

Regardless of all my griping I'm merely trying to defend the other investors like myself who don't have a lot of money and I'm probably not going to stop shooting with RED because as stated early it does provide a beautiful image and certain clients of mine love it. But as a business venture it really has disrespected the base constituency that helped RDC become the company it is today. As is so clear with the abandoning of the DRAGON system so close to it's inception.

Thank you for letting me gripe, here's hoping for "RED WMD 2017!"

-Martin W

 

[Martin W]

Red helped, but someone could easily argue the Canon 5d Mark II was the biggest trojan horse in modern 35mm motion camera nerd democratization technology. And now someone just shot a film that premiered at Sundance that is getting critical acclaim on their iphone with an anamorphic adapter.


​Well Said Edward!

 

[Elsie N]

Red helped, but someone could easily argue the Canon 5d Mark II was the biggest trojan horse in modern 35mm motion camera nerd democratization technology. And now someone just shot a film that premiered at Sundance that is getting critical acclaim on their iphone with an anamorphic adapter.


​Well Said Edward!

Wonder when we can expect that in wide release?

 

[Lakis Amarantithis]

>>The Hobbit. Avatar 2, 3 and 4. Ridley Scott. David Fincher. You.

I can't wait to see the rest of the Avatars although they are garbage as a plot but how about Avatar 1-shot at 1080p breaking every record. I saw it in a super packed IMAX and looked fantastic.

 

[Elsie N]

>>The Hobbit. Avatar 2, 3 and 4. Ridley Scott. David Fincher. You.

I can't wait to see the rest of the Avatars although they are garbage as a plot but how about Avatar 1-shot at 1080p breaking every record. I saw it in a super packed IMAX and looked fantastic.

Bet they could have saved a ton in post if they had just shot it in 4k and scaled down. '-)

 

[Will Keir]

Finally got an opportunity to see my old and new footage on a 4K TV. 55" from 3 feet away. It makes a difference in the details. Little things like bugs around a tree, leaf movement from far away trees, it's beautiful and rewarding to view.

Shots I took over 7 years ago are still above the curve. That means if I did anything worthwhile, it's relevant today and for the foreseeable future.

4K was a good choice.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

@ Martin W.

Your calculus is different than mine.

We differ. But there is to me little of what I currently do I could have done without RED and their upgrade program.

But our mileage varies.

 

[Mark Warren]

I've been a RED fan since the beginning, shoot on the camera of course, but have zero need right now to update anything. Not interested in being arm twisted to update every single step of the way, or else! No biggie for me. Direct debit instalments/subscriptions locked in seems to be the way every business model in our world is going, but here I opt out for now on 10k, 20k+ intermittent subscriptions!

RED to me has always tried to be a little bit of all things for everyone, in reality I reckon they have never been firm (since Day 1) on what their main market is intended to be. For a company that was pretty savvy, unusual and interesting with its marketing, it may very well end up being a marketing issue which slips them.

It would be fair and reasonable for them to say that they now offer options almost right across the spectrum, a broad spectrum, and I think that's fair to say, but I still stand by my opinion that they have never really been firm as to where to pitch themselves, for whatever reason this issue *seems* to have bedevilled them since the start. (Perhaps the idealistic vision of wanting to be something for everyone.) It may be that in reality, after everything shakes down, they really just want to be at the top end. That's fair.

 

[Elsie N]

So...

In 2007 I bought a RED ONE with a 4K Mysterium sensor for $17,500. At that time, just for reference, a Sony F23 (2/3" 1080P sensor) was $175K. Plus SR (RGB) recorder.

In 2010 I upgraded to the 5K Mysterium-X sensor for $5750 . I am now in for a total of $23,250.

In 2012 I traded in my RED ONE (credit value $17,500) for a $28,000 EPIC M-X package. I am now in for a total of $33,750.

In 2013 I upgraded my EPIC M-X to the 6K Dragon sensor for $8500 . I am now in for a total of $43,250.

Soon... I will be able to trade in my EPIC Dragon for Weapon. God only knows what that means...

This is Obsolescence Obsolete. As promised.

The Hobbit. Avatar 2, 3 and 4. Ridley Scott. David Fincher. You.



Jim

And now I have traded my DRAGONS for Weapon 8k.. and it has been easier to come up with the money to do that than it was for the R-1 back in the days of tight money..