Obsolescence obsolete...

[Daniel Bolton]

In 2007 at the age of 18 while still in school I asked a TV producer (that came in to do a one off lecture) what they shot on. Sony HD CAM he replied.
So I looked it up and started to get prices... needless to say after seeing the prices just for the tape decks alone I forgot about my dream for a while.

In 2008 after flunking out of school and working a job pushing trolleys about a car park I got dreaming again. So searched the words "Digital Cinema Camera" after clicking a few links I found RED.com

I looked at the specs and then the price for a Red One. 4K for $17,500 and thought "too good to be true", as so many things in life turn out to be, however I searched around to try and view footage. I then saw clips of "Crossing The Line". I was sold.

I worked my ass off for 3 years doing crazy over time week after week, month after month. When other people were spending their money on going out parting, new cars, £40 a month iPhone contacts, I was saving every penny I had. I was getting a Red One. End Of.

Summer of 2011. Deposit paid. I went with my dad to Pinewood and picked it up my Red One. Year on year now I have been honing my skill and learning my craft and I am finally ready. No matter what happens, if I fall flat on my ass or march on to triumph there is one thing I can be sure of...

I could not of done it without RED.

Heres to you Jim and Jarred and all the other guys that made Red happen. Hopefully one day my film will be on red.com with the words "Shot on Red" proudly displayed.

 

[Ed David]

Your history shows selective memory as well as selective amnesia. At the NAB - 2008, I believe it was - after RED released the RED ONE began to truly be a mass produced camera - the floor was covered in RED ONES. RED had gone from upstart to ubiquity in one year, upon its release. That is a massive and deliberate achievement. Whereas Canon has even said that it released its first hybrid cameras to better serve its base of photojournalists - to give em a little bit of video functionality to supplement their stills. The is fact that indies took this up as a replacement for kludgy 35mm adapters strapped to camcorders - Nikon (nobody even really counts Nikon in the recounting of history) and then Canon set out to do one thing and did something even they did not anticipate. There are really three revolutions which happened - the 35mm revolution - great, let's credit all those pioneers of adapters P+S, Letus, etc etc and the still camera companies. RED is just part of this mix.

Next - let's acknowledge who has championed high resolution - better than than 1080p as a replacement for film - in this, RED stands alone. Everyone else has followed. Extra props to BlackMagic for kickstarting affordable UHD for the masses - even outpacing RED on pure price point and pushing things along fast.

Now everyone is doing it. This simply wasn't the case in 2007-08.

And finally, let's acknowledge RAW - there are certainly predecessors to RED here - but none mass-produced and none affordable, and none with onboard recording. RED did that.

RED led in 3 imaging revolutions - and for awhile, pretty much stood alone in 2 out of three. Those are now done. They are so done that they don't seem revolutionary anymore.

What are we in the middle of right now. Drones and gimbals - RED is now being mimicked for size by the Alexa Mini, don't even try to pretend that the Mini is anything but a giant steal from RED - carbon fibre, interchangeable lens mounts, short boxy form factor for better balance).

Wifi control - Redlink, Hotlink, foolcontrol - show me tools that are equal to these from other manufacturers at similar price points - GoPro is probably the most even match, to date.

Size, form factor - Weapon is going to kick ass on this account. Let's wait and see. But I'm betting it sets a new standard for the amount of power packed into size.

And here's one more difference. By now, buying an Alexa straight up or paying for RED upgrades are beginning to converge. It took eight years for this to happen, if you were on board from the beginning. It's no contest - I think of the RED upgrade program as RED giving me a no-interest financing package. Every kit I have bought to date paid itself off before the next upgrade. I could not have done this with an Alexa because I would have had to cough up $50K - either in cash or financed WITH INTEREST!

Even if they are converging in price point, eight years later, you had eight years to pay it off! With no interest and no creditor.

I think Phil said it best. RED is in charge of innovation. We are in charge of our businesses and how we use the tools to make money.

If it's not making money for you, you should hop off the carousel. I have a SCARLET that I am keeping MX because in my smaller market, there are a lot of opportunities for it to work at lower tier pricing - and it's PAID OFF already. No need to upgrade when it's still a baby cash cow and continues to work. It is far from obsolete.

These are all really good points you made. However I thought redcode was a form of jpeg2000 wavelet compression that was acquired technology.

Anyway in my opinion the most interesting digital cinema innovation of the past 15 years is log recording. Raw doesn't interest me. I just don't see the advantage for the majority of work I do to record with such high intensity file sizes when I can get better or similar results recording to log and not have to transcode.

And resolution only matters so much, especially now that most stuff is watched on a iphone screen.
Other things matter too. Dynamic range and skintone rendition and shutter, saturation, tungsten, mixed lighting, daylight handling, and ergonomics of a camera and reliability. And fan noise and black balance and not needing to switch low pass filters. Will my camera have a fan noise in between takes and make it difficult to focus on set when I need a lot of concentration to do my best work as a cinematographer?

To not put the timecode and hd-sdi cable under the back of its dragon so it's tricky to pull out. To not put the MIC input on the front of the camera - to not allow line input. To put important cables on the right side of the camera like the red one mx got right.

I really truly hope the Red Weapon puts them on track to fix all these annoyances with their Red Epic product. If not, less and less films will be made with a Red camera and instead, more and more films will be made with the Alexa, Kineraw, Canon, Sony, Samsung, Blackmagic, AJA Cion, Panasonic Varicam 4k, iphone and more.

And so be it. Maybe it's time for Red to go away or maybe Weapon will be the best camera ever made. But we don't know - because Weapon is just at this point a few jpeg images. Just as the Dragon was once a few screengrabs. And we all got so excited and then some of us got so disappointed when we first shot with it.

Maybe it was time at one point for Fujifilm and soon Kodak to go away too or maybe Kodak will come back and in 10 years we'll all be shooting film again.

Things change. Move on guys. Brand loyalty is not smart. You guys aren't family. You are a bunch of people on a message board.

I go from shooting on Red to Alexa to Blackmagic to Sony to Samsung to Go Pro to god knows what just as a I go from shooting on master primes to ultra primes to angeniux to Cookes. It really depends on what I want to shoot and I figure out the best camera for the job, just as I figure out the best lenses and the best filtration. I have no brand loyalty. I have product loyalty. I use the best products I can. And I don't care if it's a Red or Arri product. If the lens is good I'll use it. And I wish you guys could see that.

Then we would be online talking about camera movement and lighting techniques and coloring technique and editing - not talking about cameras that don't exist yet.

 

[Nick Morrison]

These are all really good points you made. However I thought redcode was a form of jpeg2000 wavelet compression that was acquired technology from a forum that Jim Jinnard noticed and launched the idea of red? Is that just a ghost rumor? . And also redcode is not raw...its a compressed codec - it's not raw like a raw still frame from a still camera. It's not a pure sensor reading.

Anyway my opinion is for most important digital cinema innovation of the past 15 years is log recording. Raw doesn't interest me. log does. I just don't see the advantage for the majority of work I do to record with such high intensity file sizes when I can get better or similar results recording to log.

And resolution only matters if its perceived resolution is good in what ever the final format is. Reframing is great and all, but I still don't really care for 4k when 99% of all work I have done has been delivered at 1080p in the past 3 years. Maybe 4k will catch on, but I don't think so as the future of technolgoy seems to be mobile. Also other things matter too. Such as dynamic range and skintone rendition and shutter and ergonomics of a camera and reliability. And fan noise and black balance and not needing to switch low pass filters.

All things red could learn how to do better. To not put the timecode and hd-sdi cable under the back of its dragon. To not put the LCD attachment right by the front lens mount. To not put the MIC input on the front of the camera. To actually look at every other cinema camera ever made and notice all the connections are on the right or left side of the camera or top back of the camera.

I really truly hope the Red Weapon puts them on track to fix all these annoyances with their Red Epic product. Annoyances even the Red One MX didn't have. If not, less and less films will be made with a Red camera. And instead, more and more films will be made with the Alexa, Kineraw, Canon, Sony, Samsung, iphone and more.

And so be it. Maybe it's time for Red to go away or maybe Weapon will be the best camera ever made.

Maybe it was time at one point for Fujifilm and soon Kodak to go away too or maybe Kodak will come back and in 10 years we'll all be shooting film again.

Things change. Move on guys. Brand loyalty is not smart. You guys aren't family. You are a bunch of people on a message board.

Ed REDCODE is RAW. It's just compressed RAW. And RAW is even more flexible than a log quicktime as even more information is adjustable nondestructably - color temp, ISO, etc. Color temp is baked into a log quicktime for example...and can't he changed after the fact.

RED's compressed RAW workflow has been a major influence on the industry...

 

[Sergio Perez]

Ok, this sort of makes me upset: the day an Arri, or any other competitor camera can make me pull out from their digital film stream this quality of stills- Notice the top ones are all low light Dragon, the Racing ones are MX- than I will listen to all this nonsense. I think people are not getting the real picture here: Red cameras are revolutionary: they are the first real "convergence" tools between photography and film. It actually exceeds film in some aspects.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/126716363@N06/

EDIT- Made the Dragon Low Light Pictures available for Public viewing.

 

[Jagger Christian]

There is more than one Weapon and there is a path for Scarlet (dragon) owners to go to Weapon.

Is that only to go to Scarlet Weapon? Or can you go from Scarlet (Dragon) to whatever will be the 'TOP' Weapon will be? Or will Scarlet users have to stay at the Scarlet level? Assuming the top would be Epic Weapon or Epic Carbon Weapon? Anybody know?

 

[Jarred Land]

Is that only to go to Scarlet Weapon? Or can you go from Scarlet (Dragon) to whatever will be the 'TOP' Weapon will be? Or will Scarlet users have to stay at the Scarlet level? Assuming the top would be Epic Weapon or Epic Carbon Weapon? Anybody know?

Scarlet Dragon to "top" Weapon.

 

[Milan S.]

If this is just a body change out with some extra plugs, maybe it's a touch lighter? Maybe the fan is quieter? Maybe the camera guts and sensor itself have only minor benefits , say... Slightly faster ISO or FPS advantages. ? If so... I may stay as I am for a while longer.
I'm so happy with my Dragons as they are at the moment. Other than wanting my red volts to last 3 hours ( which we all know is impossible ) I've honestly , I've never been stuck on set. ( other than wanting super Slomo. )
I feel like I want to milk a couple more years out of them before I move on. Only because they are simply awesome already.
Anyone else thinking the same. ?

That said ......
If the changes are huge ! Like being able to shoot at 20000 ISO / 500 Fps ... Take my money now.

This is well said.

 

[Zack CC]

I was so intent on avoiding Scarlet Dragon like the plague because terminal was a word bandied about. Now it might be my only reasonable path... hehehe

 

[Eryc Tramonn]

Isn't that what eBay is for?

Yes, sir. That obviously works, too. I guess everyone feels that way. It's odd though, people on the forum seem so upset about what could amount to a simple eBay transaction. I thought they were looking for RED to supply that solution for them.

 

[Jagger Christian]

Scarlet Dragon to "top" Weapon.

This is absolutely incredible to me and so many other Scarlet MX owners. Who as we get better in our careers and can command better pay for our work, which started out with having the ability to use a 4K acquisition camera that was doing it sooner than the other guys will not be 'stuck' at the Scarlet level but can move up to the Epic or 'top' level in the future. Thanks for not forgetting the guys (& gals) that worked extra hours at the job they hate, eating Cup O'Noodles and riding their bike to work to save every last penny to buy a bare bones Scarlet package back in the day. We too can rise as our dreams and skill set rise! Thanks Jarred!

 

[Eryc Tramonn]

This is absolutely incredible to me and so many other Scarlet MX owners. Who as we get better in our careers and can command better pay for our work, which started out with having the ability to use a 4K acquisition camera that was doing it sooner than the other guys will not be 'stuck' at the Scarlet level but can move up to the Epic or 'top' level in the future. Thanks for not forgetting the guys (& gals) that worked extra hours at the job they hate, eating Cup O'Noodles and riding their bike to work to save every last penny to buy at bare bones Scarlet package back in the day. We too can rise as our dreams and skill set rise! Thanks Jarred!

Get 'em, Jagger!

 

[Karim D. Ghantous]

Ok, this sort of makes me upset: the day an Arri, or any other competitor camera can make me pull out from their digital film stream this quality of stills- Notice the top ones are all low light Dragon, the Racing ones are MX- than I will listen to all this nonsense. I think people are not getting the real picture here: Red cameras are revolutionary: they are the first real "convergence" tools between photography and film. It actually exceeds film in some aspects.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/126716363@N06/

You are right - Dragon actually does exceed film in some way. And you should know I'm very pro-film. However, like the output every single digital camera I have ever seen, it cannot handle strong light sources with the same grace as film can. And Dragon has, arguably, the greatest DR of any sensor I know of.

If you're going to shoot 2K and you have a decent budget, for the love of heaven, shoot 16mm. If you want 4K+ tomorrow, you have RED... and you have 35mm.

 

[David Battistella]

I think I could have written this exact post on the transition from R1 MX to the Epic body. But it was about processing power and form factor as well.

i share you sentiments about how I feel about the epic body and dragon sensor. I'm feeling so complete and good about it and have tweaked things to what's just right.

Somehow, and I know absolutely nothing, I think this will be a pretty significant leap forward. Red designers have been looking at the epic body for 3 years. That's an eternity in technology and a means to refine and improve form factor and function and everything really.

If they've rolled their sleeves up and tackled this for all this time then I really believe that we are in for something that is more mind blowing than incremental or cosmetic.

They've been a lot less public about what's happening in the garage and the whole maturation as a company means we are in for a surprise.

In other words I don't think Jim is going to be able to claim, "we don't know what we're doing" once we see what is in store.

Battistella

If this is just a body change out with some extra plugs, maybe it's a touch lighter? Maybe the fan is quieter? Maybe the camera guts and sensor itself have only minor benefits , say... Slightly faster ISO or FPS advantages. ? If so... I may stay as I am for a while longer.
I'm so happy with my Dragons as they are at the moment. Other than wanting my red volts to last 3 hours ( which we all know is impossible ) I've honestly , I've never been stuck on set. ( other than wanting super Slomo. )
I feel like I want to milk a couple more years out of them before I move on. Only because they are simply awesome already.
Anyone else thinking the same. ?

That said ......
If the changes are huge ! Like being able to shoot at 20000 ISO / 500 Fps ... Take my money now.

 

[Martin Stevens]

In 2007 at the age of 18 while still in school I asked a TV producer (that came in to do a one off lecture) what they shot on. Sony HD CAM he replied.
So I looked it up and started to get prices... needless to say after seeing the prices just for the tape decks alone I forgot about my dream for a while.

In 2008 after flunking out of school and working a job pushing trolleys about a car park I got dreaming again. So searched the words "Digital Cinema Camera" after clicking a few links I found RED.com

I looked at the specs and then the price for a Red One. 4K for $17,500 and thought "too good to be true", as so many things in life turn out to be, however I searched around to try and view footage. I then saw clips of "Crossing The Line". I was sold.

I worked my ass off for 3 years doing crazy over time week after week, month after month. When other people were spending their money on going out parting, new cars, £40 a month iPhone contacts, I was saving every penny I had. I was getting a Red One. End Of.

Summer of 2011. Deposit paid. I went with my dad to Pinewood and picked it up my Red One. Year on year now I have been honing my skill and learning my craft and I am finally ready. No matter what happens, if I fall flat on my ass or march on to triumph there is one thing I can be sure of...

I could not of done it without RED.

Heres to you Jim and Jarred and all the other guys that made Red happen. Hopefully one day my film will be on red.com with the words "Shot on Red" proudly displayed.

AWESOME Post! Nice.

 

[Ed David]

On a recent thread on an unnamed camera nerd user-board, a user, I will call “Johnny-Five,” wrote a beautiful little message about how brand loyalty doesn’t work in the world of cinematography.

At the end of the day, you have a camera, lenses, and accessories, and grip and lighting and sound and they all come from different companies, from different countries.

Your lights can be German, American, French - all different brands and you mix them together and they work great just as you can mix HMI with fluorescent with tungsten fresnels. Same with your lenses or monitors - on some jobs I use English lenses and on some German or Japanese lenses. I don’t look at brands, I look at how good something is.

"Johnny-five" got flogged on the board. "What? How can you say that? I love my company - it’s my family." This is because these nerds have spent thousands of dollars and hours of time on their camera toys. Thousands of dollars investing in products. And they don’t want to hear this. Imagine if someone told you that your car or your house could have been made differently. You don’t want to hear it. You just spent a lot of money so don’t tell me the windows can be switched out with better windows. No thank you.

But it’s important to hear. And hence why rental houses are so important in cinematography. Because not every camera or light or lens is the right one for each job. These companies own a variety - and they are prepared for how it all changes. Ten years ago Zeiss Standard speed lenses and other uncoated vintage glass were not as desired, but now with super sharp sensors, they rent like hot-cakes. Who would have known back then?

Now part two. Everyone is drooling about two new cameras - one is named a “weapon” - the other a “mini”. Both cameras don’t exist. Well the mini is a prototype. But why drool until that camera exists?

The same thing happened a few years ago with a few screengrabs of a camera named after a fictional mythic creature - which I will call the “Lockness Monster.” It was promised to have 16 stops of dynamic range and beautiful new color and make it the greatest camera ever made.

I drooled. ”This is it,” I mumbled to myself as I typed on internet camera nerd forums. But it wasn’t.

It had low light issues and the color isn’t that much different than the original camera.

But the biggest problem with the Lockness Monster is the same thing that plagued that camera company since they switched to a smaller body - the fan.

It’s loud - it’s on really loud when you rehearse takes or block actions or tweak lighting. This is when you need intense concentration to think - to light, to block, to work with actors. You don’t need a giant fan on. When you shoot a long beautiful interview at minute 20 it gets loud - really loud - and it’s over - the moment. And you can’t focus and concentrate because it’s blowing in your ears. Who would thought the thing that makes me the most upset is a minor issue that probably could have somehow been solved?

The Lockness Monster’s fan may be better once the Weapon comes out - but for me, I don’t care right now because it doesn’t exist.

I rather just keep my money and buy an older camera on ebay and figure out how to make it good. It’s a lot cheaper to not be an early adopter. To let other people figure out the quirks.

Because at the end of the day, any camera that can shoot log - you can make it look good with the right composition, angles, creativity, and grading. Some will look better, but at the end of the day, it’s not how good something looks - it’s whether there is a good story, good acting, and if you have something to say. Cinematography is always secondary to story. So please weapon, fix that fan noise.

 

[Terry VerHaar]

You haven't figured out the fan thing yet?? What firmware are you on?

As for brand loyalty...

There is something of a thread of marketing theory about marketing "high involvement products" to "enthusiasts." Now, in most cases, the term enthusiasts implies recreational use at a high level, but I would argue that in a business like ours, product "enthusiasm" is part of a professional attitude towards the equipment used.

In any case, the studies of this type of marketing suggest that "brand loyalty" is not prevalent nearly as much as loyalty to a certain level of product competence. The brand itself is actually secondary. Consumers will be loyal to the brand, as long as it "delivers." Yes, folks will get very enthusiastically behind the brand they choose but ONLY as long as it continues to give them the highest level of value that they are used to expecting from it. As soon as that value disappears in the eyes of that user, the brand loyalty disappears with it.

So, I don't think you are seeing blind loyalty here. I think you are seeing loyalty to the level of quality that RED delivers at a price that equates to high value. My guess is that it would take about a year to 18 months, or perhaps one full product cycle, for RED to lose the loyalty of its customers if it fails to deliver.

The "love" of RED is based on the results they provide, nothing else; and most definitely NOT (IMO) due to their naming conventions! (lol)

 

[Ed David]

You haven't figured out the fan thing yet?? What firmware are you on?

As for brand loyalty...

There is something of a thread of marketing theory about marketing "high involvement products" to "enthusiasts." Now, in most cases, the term enthusiasts implies recreational use at a high level, but I would argue that in a business like ours, product "enthusiasm" is part of a professional attitude towards the equipment used.

In any case, the studies of this type of marketing suggest that "brand loyalty" is not prevalent nearly as much as loyalty to a certain level of product competence. The brand itself is actually secondary. Consumers will be loyal to the brand, as long as it "delivers." Yes, folks will get very enthusiastically behind the brand they choose but ONLY as long as it continues to give them the highest level of value that they are used to expecting from it. As soon as that value disappears in the eyes of that user, the brand loyalty disappears with it.

So, I don't think you are seeing blind loyalty here. I think you are seeing loyalty to the level of quality that RED delivers at a price that equates to high value. My guess is that it would take about a year to 18 months, or perhaps one full product cycle, for RED to lose the loyalty of its customers if it fails to deliver.

The "love" of RED is based on the results they provide, nothing else; and most definitely NOT (IMO) due to their naming conventions! (lol)

The latest. And I've shot with Red Epics on probably 15 jobs now. I have worked with some of the best sound recordists in the world. And no, the fan is a problem when the camera is not recording. When it's recording - it's fine. But it's in between takes that I want quiet so I can think. So the director and the actors can think.

The love you feel should not come from a company, but from your friends and lovers. Companies make sprockets. I do not want to meet the CEO of Cooke Optics even though I love their lenses. This is all ridiculous.

 

[Jacek Zakowicz]

You haven't figured out the fan thing yet?? What firmware are you on?

As for brand loyalty...

There is something of a thread of marketing theory about marketing "high involvement products" to "enthusiasts." Now, in most cases, the term enthusiasts implies recreational use at a high level, but I would argue that in a business like ours, product "enthusiasm" is part of a professional attitude towards the equipment used.

In any case, the studies of this type of marketing suggest that "brand loyalty" is not prevalent nearly as much as loyalty to a certain level of product competence. The brand itself is actually secondary. Consumers will be loyal to the brand, as long as it "delivers." Yes, folks will get very enthusiastically behind the brand they choose but ONLY as long as it continues to give them the highest level of value that they are used to expecting from it. As soon as that value disappears in the eyes of that user, the brand loyalty disappears with it.

So, I don't think you are seeing blind loyalty here. I think you are seeing loyalty to the level of quality that RED delivers at a price that equates to high value. My guess is that it would take about a year to 18 months, or perhaps one full product cycle, for RED to lose the loyalty of its customers if it fails to deliver.

The "love" of RED is based on the results they provide, nothing else; and most definitely NOT (IMO) due to their naming conventions! (lol)

I think you are underestimating JJ marketing genius. He ate all those brand loyalty "marketing theories" for breakfast (hence the genius) and washed them down with some cool aid he created in his Oakley days. That's what leader do: break the "hand book" rules. They don't become incredibly successful by following guidelines that millions of others know.. It's not that easy...

 

[Nick Morrison]

The latest. And I've shot with Red Epics on probably 15 jobs now. I have worked with some of the best sound recordists in the world. And no, the fan is a problem when the camera is not recording. When it's recording - it's fine. But it's in between takes that I want quiet so I can think. So the director and the actors can think.

The love you feel should not come from a company, but from your friends and lovers. Companies make sprockets. I do not want to meet the CEO of Cooke Optics even though I love their lenses. This is all ridiculous.

ED - I think the assumption is Weapon will solve the fan issue. The Epic is after all a very small camera, with a very powerful engine. The fan is a price you pay for compactness. I'm looking forward to seeing how RED tackles this on the new body!

 

[Patrick Grossien]

Scarlet Dragon to "top" Weapon.

I'm in!