Obsolescence obsolete...

[Joan Poggio]

I personally would wait until there's more "exact" details before jumping to conclusions. Especially based on Jarred's last post.

Do note that I've use Scarlet-X with Mysterium-X on fairly large productions all the way down to no-budget projects. Working with it is what afforded my path to Epic-X and eventually Dragon. Red will build the tech, but it's going to be up to the shooter to build their career.

It is interesting that Scarlet-X MX got two upgrade paths btw to Epic MX or Scarlet Dragon. That's a lot of love in reality.

Couldn't agree more with Phil on this one. It still amazes me that Scarlet users had such an incredible opportunity to either go Epic-MX or Scarlet-Dragon. I personally was afforded to opportunity to jump from Scarlet-X to Epic-X and pay the Dragon upgrade as well, only because my work with such an incredible tool paid for it. It is amazing what Red has done for us

 

[Shane Peel]

As you would need to with cameras from other all manufactures. You appear to be singling us out and suggest that we are alone in releasing new cameras every 3 years, and you appear to be upset that those new cameras that do come also neeed new accessories to take advantage of whatever technology comes with it. You can't possibly expect all camera companies to stay just stay on floppy disks and spinning drives or magnetic tape because you don't like moving forward.

And you make it sound like Arri has just released one Alexa and Sony has just release one Cinealta since we showed up to the party.

Arri has actually released more cameras than we have since we started. So has Sony. Most of the cameras from all companies do a pretty good job of carrying over alot of " french fries" or "cash grabs" accessories when they can. But when things need to change, things need to change. Alexa is on its 4th generation of media, So is RED, and I think it might be unfair to count all the generations of Sony media because some of their cameras were still on tape still when we showed up.

But anyways... Add the price of entry up for all and tell me again how we are trying to trick-fuck our customers. If you hate us so much.. then you must really hate everyone else.

Since we joined the party :

RED : RED ONE, RED ONE MX, Epic-X, Scarlet-X, Epic-M, Epic Dragon, Scarlet Dragon, Epic Dragon-M,Carbon Dragon, Weapon...

ARRI: D20, D21, Alexa, Alexa HD, Alexa Plus, Alexa Plus 4:3, Alexa M, Alexa XT, Alexa XT Plus , Alexa XT M, Alexa XT Studio, Amira, Amira Advanced, Amira Premium, Alexa Mini, Alexa XXX .

SONY: ( just the Cinealta ones that I can recall from memory) F900,F950, F300, F350, PMW-500, F800, EX1, EX3, F3, F23, F35, F5, F55, F65. I am sure i missed a couple in there.

I think you get my point. Yes technology is moving fast. It is hard to keep up. It is the world we live in. And I love it.

We help as much as we can with those technology transitions, much , much more than anyone else.

When someone from Sony gets online and uses that magic turn of phrase "But anyways... Add the price of entry up for all and tell me again how we are trying to trick-fuck our customers." I'll consider switching but untill then … well …if you don't get it you don't get it.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

There is more than one Weapon and there is a path for Scarlet (dragon) owners to go to Weapon.

Good!

 

[sam karr]

Couldn't agree more with Phil on this one. It still amazes me that Scarlet users had such an incredible opportunity to either go Epic-MX or Scarlet-Dragon. I personally was afforded to opportunity to jump from Scarlet-X to Epic-X and pay the Dragon upgrade as well, only because my work with such an incredible tool paid for it. It is amazing what Red has done for us

Of course it's great. But it's not a gift either. Red is a company, making money, they created a more indie line, the scarlet. I pay less for the upgrades, but I have a lot less power, totally fair. That's what I like. Red is perhaps using parts of the upgraded cameras for the lower models. It would be clever and totally fair too. They are not a charity. But as Red spirit is obsolescence obsolete, I'm just expecting that my camera line will still continue to live. I love the scarlet.

 

[Mendes Nabil]

I second all people who've already asked.. "Color science please, that's all we need "...

 

[Phil Holland]

I'll go to bed on this one thought.

Red has unlocked the potential for 4K and 4K+ cameras to be used in the independent filmmaking community.

After I left Red Studios Hollywood today I was thinking about the past, present, and future. I remember spending a trunk full of cash on one of the first Pany HVX200 bodies and oddly it cost nearly as much as my Scarlet-X Mysterium-X. The big difference is I sold my HVX200 for very, very little to get "some money out of it" in the end. I think my whole package sold for $5000 if I remember correctly.

Oh yes, here it is:

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?146873-HVX200-and-Ikan-V8000HD-for-sale&

I'm not even going to mention other cameras that have passed through my hands and what they sold for. Though I do remember holding onto my Cinevate Brevis 35 as a "trophy of memories" from those days.

That led to a dead end system-wise and wasn't exactly the camera I was looking for, though it did make me some dough. Weird times shooting on film and that HVX200. Just didn't compare. However, my Scarlet-X made me some dough and was able to be upgraded. This ecosystem worked for me and as I build and have been building my DP/Director career it's allowing me to move up the ladder of camera models. Personally and professionally I need to stay on the bleeding edge of technology when it comes to digital cinema cameras. Red's fulfilling their end of this concept to me because thus far the other camera options are not exactly interesting to me when it comes to the final image or general camera system.

 

[Joan Poggio]

Of course it's great. But it's not a gift either. Red is a company, making money, they created a more indie line, the scarlet. I pay less for the upgrades, but I have a lot less power, totally fair. That's what I like. Red is perhaps using parts of the upgraded cameras for the lower models. It would be clever and totally fair too. They are not a charity. But as Red spirit is obsolescence obsolete, I'm just expecting that my camera line will still continue to live. I love the scarlet.

Agree, I'm very happy to pay for upgrades and also think that at times we at reduser ask too much, like wanting a gift. I humbly believe that even though RED cameras can go EOL, they still go on living producing incredible imagery. Technologies do evolve and change and it's hard to predict what will happen next, so there is no point in RED trying to not advance with technology. But like so many others have pointed out, RED RAW lives on and after nearly 9 years, material shot on Red One, Scarlet-X and Epic-X continues to get better with new colour science and other improvements.

 

[dewaldaukema]

I have posted this elsewhere but feel it is appropriate here too:

The arrogance of some privileged filmakers leaves me perplexed.
Without RED we would be renting the D24 Arri, F28 Sony etc for £2500 per day...
Every single cinematographer out there should pause and reflect before having a go at Jim Jannard's vision. Sure you have to equip Red's cameras with acc's to make them work, but that is not just a business model, it is also the practical reality of designing a modular system. As the system evolves for the better so does the acc's. That's progress. Is there money to be made of the accessories? Sure, but it is important to note that Jim has invested more of his own money in Red than most. Without Red 1 and the German public's money (Fraunhofer Society) there would be no Alexa...
Any talented cinematographer who finds it a challenge to create world class images with Red cameras needs to consider the time when you were measured and judged on your ability to consistently create good/relevant images with a whole range of film stocks from Kodak, Fuji and Agfa. Working with Arri Raw is as challenging and rewarding as it is working with Red's R3D files. You need to know what you are doing. Working with ProRess files are very similar to Sony Digibeta's/900's/Varicams of the past. Simple and easy to impress but oh so boring and limiting.

 

[Mark L. Pederson]

The arrogance of some privileged filmakers leaves me perplexed.
Without RED we would be renting the D24 Arri, F28 Sony etc for £2500 per day...
Every single cinematographer out there should pause and reflect before having a go at Jim Jannard's vision. Sure you have to equip Red's cameras with acc's to make them work, but that is not just a business model, it is also the practical reality of designing a modular system. As the system evolves for the better so does the acc's. That's progress. Is there money to be made of the accessories? Sure, but it is important to note that Jim has invested more of his own money in Red than most. Without Red 1 and the German public's money (Fraunhofer Society) there would be no Alexa...
Any talented cinematographer who finds it a challenge to create world class images with Red cameras needs to consider the time when you were measured and judged on your ability to consistently create good/relevant images with a whole range of film stocks from Kodak, Fuji and Agfa. Working with Arri Raw is as challenging and rewarding as it is working with Red's R3D files. You need to know what you are doing.

Post of the year and well said.

 

[David Battistella]

I second all people who've already asked.. "Color science please, that's all we need "...

Have you folks been looking at and testing the STH dragon with dragon color2 and Redlog film?

It's a pretty fantastic combination and withthesimple addition of just about any LUt you like in Resolve with stunning one lights.

Its a a bit unfair to pick on RED color science after all this time. Is is truly a non issue in tungsten or daylight.

If you haven't looked lately, look again, you might be surprised.

Battistella

 

[Anthony Berenato Jr]

Have you folks been looking at and testing the STH dragon with dragon color2 and Redlog film?

It's a pretty fantastic combination and withthesimple addition of just about any LUt you like in Resolve with stunning one lights.

Its a a bit unfair to pick on RED color science after all this time. Is is truly a non issue in tungsten or daylight.

If you haven't looked lately, look again, you might be surprised.

Battistella

And Dragon mostly made the RED color science feel like "what you see is what you get." There haven't been many projects I worked on where I needed more than a tint tweak, a small curve change, and a little saturation to make a gorgeous image look perfect. Couldn't do that on Scarlet MX.

 

[Donald MJ Anderson]

I think the clear posting of how the cameras value has been carried through is very helpful.

 

[Ed David]

I have posted this elsewhere but feel it is appropriate here too:

The arrogance of some privileged filmakers leaves me perplexed.
Without RED we would be renting the D24 Arri, F28 Sony etc for £2500 per day...
Every single cinematographer out there should pause and reflect before having a go at Jim Jannard's vision. Sure you have to equip Red's cameras with acc's to make them work, but that is not just a business model, it is also the practical reality of designing a modular system. As the system evolves for the better so does the acc's. That's progress. Is there money to be made of the accessories? Sure, but it is important to note that Jim has invested more of his own money in Red than most. Without Red 1 and the German public's money (Fraunhofer Society) there would be no Alexa...
Any talented cinematographer who finds it a challenge to create world class images with Red cameras needs to consider the time when you were measured and judged on your ability to consistently create good/relevant images with a whole range of film stocks from Kodak, Fuji and Agfa. Working with Arri Raw is as challenging and rewarding as it is working with Red's R3D files. You need to know what you are doing. Working with ProRess files are very similar to Sony Digibeta's/900's/Varicams of the past. Simple and easy to impress but oh so boring and limiting.

Actually this is not entirely true - the DVX100 coupled with the 35mm lens adapters like the P+S Techniq Mini35 and Pro 35 on the Panasonic Varicam and Sony F900 and also the Guerrilla 35 (G35) then Redrock M2 then Letus 35mm adapter was the start of change, then the Canon 5d Mark II and Panasonic HVX200 then Pansonic AF100 along with the Red One MX help to lower the cost of high-end 35mm sensors. But really it was the Canon 5d Mark II with a full frame sensor able to do 30 FPS h.264 quicktime files that started to change everything. Before this camera, the F35, Panavision Genesis. Thompson Viper and the Arri D21 was also heavily used. Fincher used the Viper on two films I believe and they look incredibly filmic and he also is quoted in American Cinematographer as saying he prefers the grain pattern of the Red One MX (my favorite Red Camera) over the Red Epic, but I digress.

The Red One MX when it came in did help create change, but it's not the sole reason the industry now exists where you can get even get unbelievable images from a Samsung NX1 $1500 mirrorless camera with completely flexible firmware that records to h.265 technology.

Red helped, but someone could easily argue the Canon 5d Mark II was the biggest trojan horse in modern 35mm motion camera nerd democratization technology. And now someone just shot a film that premiered at Sundance that is getting critical acclaim on their iphone with an anamorphic adapter.

 

[Medavoym]

As you would need to with cameras from other all manufactures. You appear to be singling us out and suggest that we are alone in releasing new cameras every 3 years, and you appear to be upset that those new cameras that do come also neeed new accessories to take advantage of whatever technology comes with it. You can't possibly expect all camera companies to stay just stay on floppy disks and spinning drives or magnetic tape because you don't like moving forward.

And you make it sound like Arri has just released one Alexa and Sony has just release one Cinealta since we showed up to the party.

Arri has actually released more cameras than we have since we started. So has Sony. Most of the cameras from all companies do a pretty good job of carrying over alot of " french fries" or "cash grabs" accessories when they can. But when things need to change, things need to change. Alexa is on its 4th generation of media, So is RED, and I think it might be unfair to count all the generations of Sony media because some of their cameras were still on tape still when we showed up.

But anyways... Add the price of entry up for all and tell me again how we are trying to trick-fuck our customers. If you hate us so much.. then you must really hate everyone else.

Since we joined the party :

RED : RED ONE, RED ONE MX, Epic-X, Scarlet-X, Epic-M, Epic Dragon, Scarlet Dragon, Epic Dragon-M,Carbon Dragon, Weapon...

ARRI: D20, D21, Alexa, Alexa HD, Alexa Plus, Alexa Plus 4:3, Alexa M, Alexa XT, Alexa XT Plus , Alexa XT M, Alexa XT Studio, Amira, Amira Advanced, Amira Premium, Alexa Mini, Alexa XXX .

SONY: ( just the Cinealta ones that I can recall from memory) F900,F950, F300, F350, PMW-500, F800, EX1, EX3, F3, F23, F35, F5, F55, F65. I am sure i missed a couple in there.

I think you get my point. Yes technology is moving fast. It is hard to keep up. It is the world we live in. And I love it.

We help as much as we can with those technology transitions, much , much more than anyone else.

Fully agree with you, Jarred!

But please - besides media - make sure we can continue to use the other DOZENS of rail accessories we invested thousands in. As much as possible. Like top plates, rail components, ribs, red wheel, etc etc

Again - I do see your point - but it would be too much for most of us to not only pay for the upgrade, but sell our whole inventory of accessories and buy a new complete inventory of rail bits and pieces. That's overwhelming.

Thanks!!

 

[Mark Phelan]

Fully agree with you, Jarred!

But please - besides media - make sure we can continue to use the other DOZENS of rail accessories we invested thousands in. As much as possible. Like top plates, rail components, ribs, red wheel, etc etc

Again - I do see your point - but it would be too much for most of us to not only pay for the upgrade, but sell our whole inventory of accessories and buy a new complete inventory of rail bits and pieces. That's overwhelming.

Thanks!!

Besides the obvious tough guy marketing aspect of it, I'm pretty sure that's why RED went with the NATO rail approach. It's about as generic and able to be configured in multiple forms as one could get. That seems pretty transparent and I can only suspect this would continue.

 

[Patrick Grossien]

There is more than one Weapon and there is a path for Scarlet (dragon) owners to go to Weapon.

Breadcrumbs. You're throwing us breadcrumbs here, man!

So we know more than before - there's not only one WEAPON - but we still don't know if there will be a way to go from Scarlet D to any of the Weapons through the upgrade path (like with dragon it was Scarlet and Epic). Sorry man, just too curious and excited.

 

[Eric Santiago]

Yes there is a path to the future with my Scarlet-X.

Turn it on and start shooting

Rinse and Repeat...

 

[Patrick Grossien]

We help as much as we can with those technology transitions, much , much more than anyone else.

So damn true. This is one of the big reasons (not the main reason - that's more what the RED gear is capable of) that I wanted to get into the RED game. I've been using camera tech for about 30 years since I was a kid. This is so unheard of and something I have been hoping for for ages, that it's hard for me to describe how much this means to me.

Every attempt to carry over as much of our investment is more than appreciated. But to me it's not only about money.

Remember when household gadgets and other machinery was built in a way it just kept running forever and still does? I'm not that old to get all "remember the day?" on you all, but I like stuff which is built to last. And from that conscience I believe comes the hope for getting back some of that feeling of hardware not becoming throw away items the moment you buy it. Reusing, recycling, and upcycling - sorry to get all ecological on you all, but it's something worth striving for. This is not something RED claims to do, but the upgrade program with reusing sensors and boards etc. and offering BT gear is a good cause - not only because of our investments.

Thank you Jim for starting this and thank you Jarred for keeping on rocking !

 

[Jeff McCoy]

Jarred,
People complained that Apple changed the charging cable. Apple didn't do it just to be dicks- that cable needed to evolve.
I wouldn't waste your breath on the people who complain. Most of us Red owners joined the party to be on the forefront of technology. Technology doesn't wait. How long ago did the Red One come out with 4K? It's 2015 and you still can't buy a 4K camera from Arri.

 

[Milan S.]

I think you get my point. Yes technology is moving fast. It is hard to keep up. It is the world we live in. And I love it.

We help as much as we can with those technology transitions, much , much more than anyone else.

Jarred, I have to agree with this and I think your trade-in program is very generous.

I agree about the faster media and all that stuff, it's inevitable.

The problem is that the Red modules that are on the market now will not be compatible with the new camera as I understand, other than the lens mounts.
I would have switched to the mini mags yesterday if the side SSD module would work with the new camera.
None of the rear mounted modules nor the side handle would work with it either as I understand?