Obsolescence obsolete...

[Clayton Burkhart]

Clayton - I do feel like I have to play devil's advocate for a moment and ask several questions of you:

-How often do you have to get hired for a camera you don't know?
-With cameras constantly being released by every other company, do you rent each new one, learn them, and then note to existing/prospective clients that you can now operate those?
-Don't your skills with those cameras eventually become obsolete once new gear comes out that clients want?

I guess from an owner/operator point of view, it feels like there are some advantages to buying into a system that's evolving with upgrades (knowing your camera inside + out, being able to target a specific market wanting that gear + look, etc.).

Let me answer that by saying, how many owner operators use a camera for a job, not because it is the right one, but because it is the one they own ?

Personally, I think that a RED camera is often the wrong camera for most of the work out there. It does not favor quick turnaround for ENG style work, it did until recently have signifigant issues for situations where sound is critical and there is no time to blimp a camera, there are rolling shutter issues for certain camera movements, which then require a motion mount, however that does cut considerably dynamic range, it is still extremely sensitive in hot environments, etc. It is rarely appropriate for documentary work and also it can be problematic for skintones under certain lighting conditions, most noteably Tungsten environments. Further, a RED is not a phantom and most jobs where I would be shooting on it's highest frame rates would make me question if it was the best choice in that circumstance as well. However, in a more controlled environment, especially green screen, I do appreciate it. I also think it's appropriate for many advertising situations where a very resolute image is required.

I have worked with many cameras over the years, I understand lighting and anyone who would tell me that there is only one right camera for all situations would not only not inspire confidence, but would also make me question his or her professional experience . Doubtless, most here would agree with me. So why is it that most owner operators I know insist on using their cameras on 90% of the shoots they work on? Is it because it really is the best choice or is it because they have spent $45k on it and need to pay it off?

 

[Eryc Tramonn]

Thanks Eryc, I did misconstrue your comments. My apologies as well.

i guess what I have been trying to say is that in this kind of technological environment, brand loyalty is everything.
However, I try not to confuse brand loyalty with brand quality or brand value. I don't question the quality, but I do question the value.

All good, Clayton. We filmmakers are a passionate bunch, and text never conveys inflection well. I hear you, and thank you for your suggestions. I appreciate it. But I have to tell you...my firsthand experience with these people for the past 8 years does not line up with your assessment.

Everything around RED is constructed in order to further brand loyalty, including this forum, and the notion of some great heroic battle being fought against "conventionality". Sometimes it almost feels like a siege mentality, mixed in with army fatigues and nato rails. Nothing brings people together better than perceived adversity, even if it is artificial. Seem to be working very well judging by some of the attitudes I see here. Just when I thought that kind of stuff was fading too...anyhow that is another topic.

Hmm. This is a tough one. Well, my own experiences correlate this mentality, so it is difficult for me to refute it. Having worked within corporate, "strategic marketing" at the studio level, I feel quite comfortable saying Operation Mockingbird is alive and well. The mentality of the admen, and other execs, is anything but nice when it comes to the everyman. So yes, in some measure there is a definite war waging. I would love to say more on that, but those bastions are also some of the few places financed enough to afford production at the level I am funding myself at. They are essentially government-sponsored propaganda engines. The creation of high resolution imagery and the ability to distribute those pictures has historically been cloistered within the hands of an elite few -- belting out the same stories, utilizing the same talent, over and over and over ad nauseam. I don't know any "average person" who owns a printing press, or 35mm film camera. But you're right...that is another topic.

So there are two things I question here. The first is the necessity for an upgrade to the body without an upgrade to the sensor. Why not wait until the next sensor is ready? Why not allow those accessories of yours to have an extra chance to pay for themselves? Why not allow your camera to maintain it's value a little bit longer? For me the answer is obvious. The next greatest thing is what everyone chases after and pays top dollar for. So if you want people to keep paying a decent rate for your equipment, you have to keep updating, even if the market cycle is artificial and inflated.

I hear you, and I won't speculate why certain decisions are being made in the manner they are. RED prodded the sleeping, stagnant ass giants. Now to remain disruptive, and relevant, and further secure our investments -- that urges progress. Stagnation would be a terrible thing for a company founded on revolutionary ideas and approach, and for all of us in the wake. That is my very humble opinion.

The other thing I question is the sustainabliliy of a $40-50K investment in terms of "buying in" pricing and a rolling forward every 12-18 months of another $10K. I think the truth is that we will soon (if not already) be having cameras that cost less fully configured than the upgrade from RED, without having much if any quality loss at all. I think that RED must be aware of this, so I wonder if the next "box" that comes from RED will not only not be modular, but a total departure from the accessories you currently own. That would also be a departure from the current business model. It might actually follow the more conventional "all in one solutions" out there and therefore also be cheaper. Which would definitely piss a lot of people off. So I don't see this "upgrade" therefore as really a leap forward for you and me. It seems more like "corporate guidance", a warning that your system is about to lose a lot of value and a means for which brand loyalty can be maintained, by allowing you to roll forward to the next product. Something I question that we really need. So be prepared.

No doubts here either. But again, what you are stating is conversely the reason that advancement must proceed in relation to what other manufacturers are producing. Plus, I feel many owners bought into the RED ecosystem because they prefer to produce an income via the niche market-space RDC has created through bleeding edge tech. But the end result will be how each of us intends to utilize our cameras. If we find/build the right income streams, the cams will pay for themselves many times over. And yes, the RED system is a pretty hefty investment, but all things considered, it currently has few rivals for its versatility in motion picture production. So it may not be the right tool if the owner were are not in a position to produce a return to amortize its purchase. Buying a RED is definitely a business transaction for most. For some it is just another toy.

 

[Nick Morrison]

Personally, I think that a RED camera is often the wrong camera for most of the work out there. It does not favor quick turnaround for ENG style work, it did until recently have signifigant issues for situations where sound is critical and there is no time to blimp a camera, there are rolling shutter issues for certain camera movements, which then require a motion mount, however that does cut considerably dynamic range, it is still extremely sensitive in hot environments, etc. It is rarely appropriate for documentary work and also it can be problematic for skintones under certain lighting conditions, most noteably Tungsten environments. Further, a RED is not a phantom and most jobs where I would be shooting on it's highest frame rates would make me question if it was the best choice in that circumstance as well. However, in a more controlled environment, especially green screen, I do appreciate it. I also think it's appropriate for many advertising situations where a very resolute image is required.

Clayton are you talking about RED's in general, or Dragon? Because Dragon has seemingly answered all the issues you mention - has almost no rolling shutter, good in mixed lighting and Tungsten, excellent skintones...

I've always found the small size a boon for run n gun (which we do a lot of).

I have worked with many cameras over the years, I understand lighting and anyone who would tell me that there is only one right camera for all situations would not only not inspire confidence, but would also make me question his or her professional experience . Doubtless, most here would agree with me. So why is it that most owner operators I know insist on using their cameras on 90% of the shoots they work on? Is it because it really is the best choice or is it because they have spent $45k on it and need to pay it off?

I think this last comment about owner operators trying to force their cameras on jobs..doesn't feel in-sync with the market...at least the local one here in NYC. There are so many MEDIUM sized jobs now...that most client's will take any camera...as long as the production company, agency or DP can "deliver" - but with these controlled costs comes a market for DP's that own their own cameras, equipment, etc...and have that built in to their rate. Clients get a discount, owners make a return on their gear, and overall...its often CHEAPER/EASIER for all. Also - its becoming harder for DP's in NYC to make a living w/out owning equipment - you become too dependent on having to rent 50-100K of gear on every job, which can be a challenge here unless you have a premium insurance policy, and also have extra days built in to PICKUP gear...and RETURN in....not to mention prep...

So - it's not that owners/ops are foisting their gear on jobs...it's that clients are often asking for it. Why hire a great DP with a Dragon, and then pay extra for an Alexa? The economics are often favoring owner/ops.

Almost every DP I know in NY...owns their own gear (whether it be RED, Amira, F55, Alexa, etc). It's becoming the future...It used to be DSLR...or Alexa....BIG or SMALL...and now we seem to be entering an age of MEDIUM...and for that...it becomes very convenient to employ DPs who own their equipment...

 

[Roberto Lequeux]

:emote_happyhappy:
...

 

[Eryc Tramonn]

I think this last comment about owner operators trying to force their cameras on jobs..doesn't feel in-tune with market...at least the local one here in NYC. There are so many MEDIUM sized jobs now...that most client's will take any camera...as long as the production company, agency or DP can "deliver" - but with these controlled costs comes a market for DP's that own their own cameras, equipment, etc...and have that built in to their rate. Clients get a discount, owners make a return on their gear, and overall...its often CHEAPER/EASIER for all. Also - its becoming harder for DP's in NYC to make a living w/out owning equipment - you become too dependent on having to rent 50-100K of gear on every job, which can be a challenge here unless you have a premium insurance policy, and also have extra days built in to PICKUP gear...and RETURN in....not to mention prep...

So - it's not that owners/ops are foisting their gear on jobs...it's that clients are often asking for it. Why hire a great DP with a Dragon, and then pay extra for an Alexa? The economics are often favoring owner/ops.

Producers have stated the same in LA. Recently, a producer told me they wouldn't hire someone that didn't own their own gear, "It doesn't make sense not to." Just depends on the nature of the job, the deliverable and turnaround, but often it seems it is easier to call on owner/ops that know their gear intimately.

 

[BrendanLeahy]

Producers have stated the same in LA. Recently, a producer told me they wouldn't hire someone that didn't own their own gear, "It doesn't make sense not to." Just depends on the nature of the job, the deliverable and turnaround, but often it seems it is easier to call on owner/ops that know their gear intimately.

I was told the exact same thing as well by a hiring producer out of LA via email. She wrote: "Really smart of you to go down the owner/operator road… that’s how things are going these days."

 

[Nick Morrison]

I was told the exact same thing as well by a hiring producer out of LA via email. She wrote: "Really smart of you to go down the owner/operator road… that’s how things are going these days."

Yup, welcome to the future! Most jobs now require high end gear, reasonable rates, and fast turn-arounds - all things that appear to favor owner/ops...

 

[Shane Peel]

So the thing about Red that sticks out the most is that it's an upward zone. I have just spent two years hauling an Epic around the backcountry in Japan for part of a pretty indulgent project (time wise), last year it was a mission with all the added stuff like a side-handle and batteries that last abot 18-20 minutes in the cold, the EVF would fog up, the rig would not fit in any camera backpack known to man without pulling it to bits and God forbid you wanted to haul out rods and follow focus and a matt box to filter things.
This year it was different, we got specialist batteries and by the power of velcro removed all the silly adapter plate and guff you need to conect to the brain, this dropped the weight by kg's, the switchblade came along and more weight and space was saved, the motion mount became our filter tray and things we're much easier. The camera was evolving.
The dragon upgrade I should have taken ages ago will no doubt make the image next level again and from the stuff I see leaked around I am guessing the guys at Red are just doin the same thing with weapon as all of us … trying to make a better camera in a smaller package to more easily capture our vision. They are probably throwing out the stuff we don't need and adding in a bunch we don't even realise we do need to be as future proof as we can. It's going to sting when the new camera releases and there is a bunch of gear we all want that makes the stuff we have now seem somehow less desirable but everyone kind of knew what the deal was with Red when they signed up. This is what these guys do, they make gear that is gonna challenge us to equal its abilities with our own, they are gonna make mistakes and so are we that's the fun part there no real rules and its all new ground.
Right now there is NO motion capture device that is even close to the same space as what Red has in the market for purchase, right now, today. The fact they are still surging forward is stunning, the fact that they are looking out for the customer to the degree they are is reason alone for me to put all my eggs in the Red basket.
If only they would attack the lens racket with the same gusto … then Jim's "War on conventional thinking" would really heat up.

 

[PatrickFaith]

What I find even more amazing on the "Obsolescence obsolete...[FONT=Tahoma, Calibri, Verdana, Geneva, sans-serif]" is how well the r3d raw workflow has flowed over these years. I mean I have old raw files, and use them just as easily as my dragon files. It's real real hard to have raw formats that just seamlessly work over generations of hardware, the r3d RAW is the core that drives all this. I am disappointed when people don't understand how novel the idea is of multigenerational raw formats. It's the RED raw that is really my draw to DSMC & RED.[/FONT]

 

[Nick Morrison]

I am disappointed when people don't understand how novel the idea is of multigenerational raw formats. It's the RED raw that is really my draw to DSMC & RED.

Agree 2000%.

 

[Ed David]

Thanks Eryc, I did misconstrue your comments. My apologies as well.

i guess what I have been trying to say is that in this kind of technological environment, brand loyalty is everything.
However, I try not to confuse brand loyalty with brand quality or brand value. I don't question the quality, but I do question the value.

Everything around RED is constructed in order to further brand loyalty, including this forum, and the notion of some great heroic battle being fought against "conventionality". Sometimes it almost feels like a siege mentality, mixed in with army fatigues and nato rails. Nothing brings people together better than perceived adversity, even if it is artificial. Seem to be working very well judging by some of the attitudes I see here. Just when I thought that kind of stuff was fading too...anyhow that is another topic.

So there are two things I question here. The first is the necessity for an upgrade to the body without an upgrade to the sensor. Why not wait until the next sensor is ready? Why not allow those accessories of yours to have an extra chance to pay for themselves? Why not allow your camera to maintain it's value a little bit longer? For me the answer is obvious. The next greatest thing is what everyone chases after and pays top dollar for. So if you want people to keep paying a decent rate for your equipment, you have to keep updating, even if the market cycle is artificial and inflated.

The other thing I question is the sustainabliliy of a $40-50K investment in terms of "buying in" pricing and a rolling forward every 12-18 months of another $10K. I think the truth is that we will soon (if not already) be having cameras that cost less fully configured than the upgrade from RED, without having much if any quality loss at all. I think that RED must be aware of this, so I wonder if the next "box" that comes from RED will not only not be modular, but a total departure from the accessories you currently own. That would also be a departure from the current business model. It might actually follow the more conventional "all in one solutions" out there and therefore also be cheaper. Which would definitely piss a lot of people off. So I don't see this "upgrade" therefore as really a leap forward for you and me. It seems more like "corporate guidance", a warning that your system is about to lose a lot of value and a means for which brand loyalty can be maintained, by allowing you to roll forward to the next product. Something I question that we really need. So be prepared.

Be careful with these statements. In the olden, good days of reduser, you would be banned. But in all seriousness, yes, the emperor has no clothes.

yes camera agnosticism is the best philosophy to have. Just like lenses, certain projects require certain cameras. No one camera to rule them all. Being an owner/operator especially in this day and age when better and better cameras come out for less and less is an excercise in pain. However, owning all the accessories is far more interesting. Like a good monitor and a good follow focus - those seem to be there to last at least 10 years. Not one year.

That's why I only buy cameras once they become less than $10k to buy. And when they cost more, I rent them from a camera house. Because camera houses provide support and service unlike any owner operator including myself can do. Sure I can know my camera's quirks pretty well - but now all cameras are getting pretty similar. Shoot log. Find where you want to put middle grey. Learn its flaws and strengths. Record. Invoice.

 

[Asif Limbada]

Jim,

You know we love RED and its ethos, just one thing, better color science and also proxy recording with high speed and full sensor coverage (Fanboys be easy on me. Its just my opinion ad feature request, you guys can shoot RAW all day long, trust me good on you, I will too, but sometimes Pro Res is just better logistically)

Get us better color science, nicer skin tones in camera, I wouldn't care less about Ks and ISOs right now, I am getting an awesome package from RED. COLOUR SCIENCE.

Can someone really do something about it.

Cheers,
Asif

So...

In 2007 I bought a RED ONE with a 4K Mysterium sensor for $17,500. At that time, just for reference, a Sony F23 (2/3" 1080P sensor) was $175K. Plus SR (RGB) recorder.

In 2010 I upgraded to the 5K Mysterium-X sensor for $5750 . I am now in for a total of $23,250.

In 2012 I traded in my RED ONE (credit value $17,500) for a $28,000 EPIC M-X package. I am now in for a total of $33,750.

In 2013 I upgraded my EPIC M-X to the 6K Dragon sensor for $9500 . I am now in for a total of $43,250.

Soon... I will be able to trade in my EPIC Dragon for Weapon. God only knows what that means...

This is Obsolescence Obsolete. As promised.

The Hobbit. Avatar 2, 3 and 4. Ridley Scott. David Fincher. You.

Jim

 

[Jeff McCoy]

Amen! ...and having Jim post is such a nice surprise!!! These last few days on Reduser have really fired me up! Cannot wait for Weapon and what lies ahead. I am so glad I boarded this ship...

 

[Robert Berger]

give me a weapon to shoot, not to kill but make the white screen to too live (life)...... make my day !!!

new ALL RED showreel on www.camlight.nl

best

 

[Vadim Bobkovsky]

COLOUR SCIENCE

What's wrong with Dragon's colors? It's easily on par with Alexa or better.

 

[Jarred Land]

in order to use those cameras, he would have needed to spend a good deal more on accessories and you know it.

As you would need to with cameras from other all manufactures. You appear to be singling us out and suggest that we are alone in releasing new cameras every 3 years, and you appear to be upset that those new cameras that do come also neeed new accessories to take advantage of whatever technology comes with it. You can't possibly expect all camera companies to stay just stay on floppy disks and spinning drives or magnetic tape because you don't like moving forward.

And you make it sound like Arri has just released one Alexa and Sony has just release one Cinealta since we showed up to the party.

Arri has actually released more cameras than we have since we started. So has Sony. Most of the cameras from all companies do a pretty good job of carrying over alot of " french fries" or "cash grabs" accessories when they can. But when things need to change, things need to change. Alexa is on its 4th generation of media, So is RED, and I think it might be unfair to count all the generations of Sony media because some of their cameras were still on tape still when we showed up.

But anyways... Add the price of entry up for all and tell me again how we are trying to trick-fuck our customers. If you hate us so much.. then you must really hate everyone else.

Since we joined the party :

RED : RED ONE, RED ONE MX, Epic-X, Scarlet-X, Epic-M, Epic Dragon, Scarlet Dragon, Epic Dragon-M,Carbon Dragon, Weapon...

ARRI: D20, D21, Alexa, Alexa HD, Alexa Plus, Alexa Plus 4:3, Alexa M, Alexa XT, Alexa XT Plus , Alexa XT M, Alexa XT Studio, Amira, Amira Advanced, Amira Premium, Alexa Mini, Alexa XXX .

SONY: ( just the Cinealta ones that I can recall from memory) F900,F950, F300, F350, PMW-500, F800, EX1, EX3, F3, F23, F35, F5, F55, F65. I am sure i missed a couple in there.

I think you get my point. Yes technology is moving fast. It is hard to keep up. It is the world we live in. And I love it.

We help as much as we can with those technology transitions, much , much more than anyone else.

 

[sam karr]

RED : RED ONE, RED ONE MX, Epic-X, Scarlet-X, Epic-M, Epic Dragon, Scarlet Dragon, Epic Dragon-M,Carbon Dragon, Weapon
.

So it seems that what I was afraid of will happen. The death of the scarlet in a near future. No scarlet weapon in that list. Probably a very high price for the upgrade then, that most scarlet users can't afford. I hope I' m wrong. It was a nice adventure anyway.

 

[Jarred Land]

So it seems that what I was afraid of will happen. The death of the scarlet in a near future. No scarlet weapon in that list. Probably a very high price for the upgrade then, that most scarlet users can't afford. I hope I' m wrong. It was a nice adventure anyway.

There is more than one Weapon and there is a path for Scarlet (dragon) owners to go to Weapon.

 

[Phil Holland]

Yes, there is, but it will be 20000 when epic upgrade will be 10000 I guess. I would have prefered my indie camera with less power and a 10000 upgrade. Like the dragon upgrade. Not everybody needs that power. Why would I buy a ferrari to make 200m in my street once every 2 days. Many people try to convince scarlet owners that their life will change with hfr, 6k, and crazy data consuming compression but it's often the same ones shooting tests, girl next door and family footages for years here and stuck into gear lust without accepting it. I was happy with the scarlet indie spirit. But if it's becoming a 45000$ camera, the spirit is quite different.

I personally would wait until there's more "exact" details before jumping to conclusions. Especially based on Jarred's last post.

Do note that I've use Scarlet-X with Mysterium-X on fairly large productions all the way down to no-budget projects. Working with it is what afforded my path to Epic-X and eventually Dragon. Red will build the tech, but it's going to be up to the shooter to build their career.

It is interesting that Scarlet-X MX got two upgrade paths btw to Epic MX or Scarlet Dragon. That's a lot of love in reality.

 

[sam karr]

I personally would wait until there's more "exact" details before jumping to conclusions. Especially based on Jarred's last post.

Do note that I've use Scarlet-X with Mysterium-X on fairly large productions all the way down to no-budget projects. Working with it is what afforded my path to Epic-X and eventually Dragon. Red will build the tech, but it's going to be up to the shooter to build their career.

It is interesting that Scarlet-X MX got two upgrade paths btw to Epic MX or Scarlet Dragon. That's a lot of love in reality.

I saw Jarred's post, that's why I deleted that message but you were fast ^^
But building a career is not linked to the power of the camera. And there is so many carriers. There is the ones wanting to make tons of money, and some who don't care and live only for art. Some shooting weddings. Some doing narratives, or docs, or commercials, etc. Many don't need the extra power. I'm doing video work for galeries, 5k is already too much. I could stay with the scarlet obviously. Nobody is forcing me. But weapon seems to be a body upgrade with what most people were asking for, connections, etc. I need that, but I would prefer not to pay for the whole Epic Weapon as I don't need that power and prefer a lower profile camera. And buy other accessories with the money. We'll see anyway. I see hope in Jarred's message.