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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Observations...

In this Weapon review video, at 15Mn.05s, the guy from OffHollywood says:

https://vimeo.com/124951861

"It is the sensor dragon however, there are processing improvements. You are gonna be able to squeeze more of the image and there is some color stuff that's happening that's taking that color science to a whole other level"

What about this last sentence concerning the color science? Is he making a mistake or am i missing something?

Because if Weapon has a better color science than Epic, things are for sure much more interesting than what i thought..

Ps: A Weapon lite would be great!
 
Yes. James Falco seems to have done with one post what we couldn't with several. ;)

James, please post early, post often. ;)

Basically, DRAGON in a weapon body that allow us to get the modules we need (XLR inputs, jetpack etc), addresses the pain points of the DRAGON raised an infinite number of times on this forum that are fixed in Weapon (image issues like magenta streaks, low light performance, blackshading etc) will hopefully be the new baseline RED will package up to make an offering that many of us would like to buy into. Those who want prores can go to the Weapon.

Color science improvements should not be restricted to the Weapon alone. That's just creating 'bad quality' to maintain differentiation which will hurt RED in the medium and long term.
 
Jarred Land said:
Thanks James. Are you suggesting just a pure Epic ---> Weapon type body upgrade, without the extra processing?

That is kind of interesting.
Click to expand...
YES!

I like my camera:
Rough, Raw and RED. Keep it pure.
ProRes is conventional thinking.
 
Nikhil Kamkolkar said:
Color science improvements should not be restricted to the Weapon alone. That's just creating 'bad quality' to maintain differentiation which will hurt RED in the medium and long term.
Click to expand...

I can assure you that Graeme, Jarred and Jim would NEVER handicap any color science in any RED product. Quite the OPPOSITE in fact. They have always, and continue to improve the color science of processing REDCODE. BUT ... there are OBVIOUSLY things you can do ON CAMERA with a different hardware design. So ... you need to erase the thought that RED is going to "handicap" anything in the Epic/Scarlet/Dragon cameras. They will continue to improve color as long as Graeme is on this planet. That is the power of RAW.

But the WEAPON is all new hardware. There not one single board in the Weapon that is in the Epic/Scarlet/Dragon cameras. It is ALL new hardware and a new ASIC. So you will be able to do MORE on the camera with Weapon. And in all the camera tests I have even been in (many) - people are already making judgements from the monitor before footage ever gets to post.
 
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Mark L. Pederson said:
It is ALL new hardware and a new ASIC. So you will be able to do MORE on the camera with Weapon. And in all the camera tests I have even been in (many) - people are already making judgements from the monitor before footage ever gets to post.
Click to expand...

Really interesting Mark, what does that exactly mean? People are already seeing differences in term of color science? That would be huge..

We didn't heard a word from Jim or Jarred about color science, maybe something is being prepared out there..
 
Mendes Nabil said:
Really interesting Mark, what does that exactly mean? People are already seeing differences in term of color science? That would be huge..

We didn't heard a word from Jim or Jarred about color science, maybe something is being prepared out there..
Click to expand...

I'm not sure we can judge and compare anything watching the new Red monitor. The improvement may only be on that monitor.
And wouldn't it be logical to communicate on that aspect at the very beginning if that was the case and not at the end of the upgrade discount offer?
 
Loic Parent said:
Jarred, thanks you for considering this.
it could be the way for a lot of us to stay on the RED train. take advantage of the lighter and smaller body, clever new ergonomics but no extra processing needed for the prores. call it the Weapon for small shop that have no problem with the current RED workflow, and don't see the point of prores..
Click to expand...

What about, assuming it's possible, a module adapter for Scarlet/ EPIC brains that interfaces with the new Weapon modules?
 
I like the idea of a Dragon in a Weapon shell, no pro-pres....it would be a good deal
 
Mark L. Pederson said:
I can assure you that Graeme, Jarred and Jim would NEVER handicap any color science in any RED product. Quite the OPPOSITE in fact. They have always, and continue to improve the color science of processing REDCODE. BUT ... there are OBVIOUSLY things you can do ON CAMERA with a different hardware design. So ... you need to erase the thought that RED is going to "handicap" anything in the Epic/Scarlet/Dragon cameras. They will continue to improve color as long as Graeme is on this planet. That is the power of RAW.

But the WEAPON is all new hardware. There not one single board in the Weapon that is in the Epic/Scarlet/Dragon cameras. It is ALL new hardware and a new ASIC. So you will be able to do MORE on the camera with Weapon. And in all the camera tests I have even been in (many) - people are already making judgements from the monitor before footage ever gets to post.
Click to expand...

Agreed. To clarify, I misspoke when I said color science. I meant, that any FIXES for the image and color issues (olpf shadows, orbs, magenta streaks, etc) should not be restricted to Weapon alone. I'm fine with there being a "WeaponColor" that is only available on Weapon… DragonColor is just fine for my needs. Know what I mean?
 
Jeff Kilgroe said:
What about, assuming it's possible, a module adapter for Scarlet/ EPIC brains that interfaces with the new Weapon modules?
Click to expand...

It wouldn't be the right path for RED, IMHO.

RED really should be encouraging all DRAGON (EPIC or SCARLET) owners to move to the new body asap so they can start to cut down on their legacy tech debt. Do this by providing an enticing upgrade option even if its just a cost-breakeven for RED.

It'll raise RED's reputation as a reliable, ergonomic and effective piece of camera equipment which you cannot place a financial number on. But its everything. It'll help RED tremendously expand its eco-system by applying all its learnings to new modules. Creating anything that helps people hang on to the old stuff will just hold RED back.
 
Jeff Kilgroe said:
What about, assuming it's possible, a module adapter for Scarlet/ EPIC brains that interfaces with the new Weapon modules?
Click to expand...
Think of it this way, epic/scarlet is to weapon as pci-X is to pci-e...
 
Nikhil Kamkolkar said:
Yes. James Falco seems to have done with one post what we couldn't with several. ;)

James, please post early, post often. ;)

Basically, DRAGON in a weapon body that allow us to get the modules we need (XLR inputs, jetpack etc), addresses the pain points of the DRAGON raised an infinite number of times on this forum that are fixed in Weapon (image issues like magenta streaks, low light performance, blackshading etc) will hopefully be the new baseline RED will package up to make an offering that many of us would like to buy into. Those who want prores can go to the Weapon.

Color science improvements should not be restricted to the Weapon alone. That's just creating 'bad quality' to maintain differentiation which will hurt RED in the medium and long term.
Click to expand...


I know, I should have, but I was to busy complaining about it.
It took me few days to realize what everybody was really asking for, including myself. ; )
 
According to what i've understood, the extra power of Weapon allows one thing only that Epic can't do: "shooting Prores", and i personally don't see the point of such a feature..

To be honest i'm really hesitant right now, and i know a lot of red owners who feel the same. If the Red community was not the way it is, i would have left it for the Alexa mini, without hesitation.
But the fact is that we can interact between users, and with Jim and Jarred too, having them hearing our thoughts is priceless. So, i hope that this "extra power" will allow the weapon to have more than just the Prores option: Improved color science and texture would be great..
 
Gavin Greenwalt said:
I'm feeling a bit pinched on power right now and want to buy a few batteries. I was considering REDVolt XLs before I saw the Weapon price. Now I'm just shopping for V-Mounts since they will work with any camera in 12-18 months if something comes out substantially better than my Epic. I'm hearing from a *lot* of people that I know who are doing the exact same thing.
Click to expand...

I did the same thing. I sold my sidehandle and redvolts and bought some vmount thinking that i should go generic, just in case. I bought a scarlet-X when it was released, and then upgraded to scarlet D, the price I paid for everything during these 3 years is exactly the same I would pay for a brand new scarlet dragon with the same accessories if I buy it now. Now there is an Epic D path. Again if I go there I will not pay more for the whole trip than what I would pay for a brand new Epic Dragon. That's really really great. But my 15000€ camera from the beginning is becoming a 35000€ camera. The risk is bigger now. That's why I'm reducing the pressure by going generic. I don't want to be stuck 100% in the red environment, as we never know what will be the next moves until the very last moment. I have to admit that, like many others, since the Weapon announcement, I'm watching other companies too. I could sell my scarlet dragon and buy something else. But the closest thing would be Arri I guess. And the most affordable Arri is the Amira which is becoming expensive when you add the mount, battery adapter, shoulder rig, card, prores 444, etc. So now I'm just torn between keeping the scarlet dragon for the next years or upgrading to epic dragon for more framerates and less compression.
 
We are just spitballing here... but a pure form-factor upgrade from Epic to Weapon in aluminum form isn't the worst idea in the world.

Ears Open...
 
Todd T said:
Think of it this way, epic/scarlet is to weapon as pci-X is to pci-e...
Click to expand...

And your point is?

Maybe I'm being overly obtuse, but it seems that some people are asking for an EPIC Dragon wrapped in the Weapon body, or just a form factor change. What is the point? What if a module adapter for the EPIC and Scarlet were available to allow attachment of the newer Weapon modules? Then there is no need to move laterally to a Weapon camera that isn't a Weapon, but a re-housed EPIC? That was my suggestion. It's a means to tailor existing cameras to the newer ecosystem of the top level offering.

Beyond that, if someone were to buy a Weapon, that doesn't have all the additional processing power or is no better than the current EPIC, then what purpose would that serve? That was the suggestion made earlier in the thread to which I suggested the module adaptor. IMO, to have such an offering -- lower on the scale Weapon camera -- serves no purpose other than to give the immediate outward impression that it's a Weapon (cosmetic) or the ability to use the newer modules (functional, but potentially solvable with a different module adapter).

Or more to the point, I see an advantage to the form factor change moving forward for new cameras. But for someone who already owns an EPIC, I'm not sure I see value in cross-grading to a different housing. ....If an adapter would address module issues and the two camera options would be functionally identical.
 
Jarred Land said:
We are just spitballing here... but a pure form-factor upgrade from Epic to Weapon in aluminum form isn't the worst idea in the world.

Ears Open...
Click to expand...

Well, as I said in my previous post - it makes sense for everyone as it gets Dragons to the Weapon form factor - and can start as the new entry point for Weapon (much like Scarlet did for people that moved to Epic - then Dragon, without having to buy specific extras, it was a fully compatible eco system).

I'm sure there'll be a lot of interest and it might be worth chewing on ideas and seeing what/how it could all work...
 
Jeff Kilgroe said:
Or more to the point, I see an advantage to the form factor change moving forward for new cameras. But for someone who already owns an EPIC, I'm not sure I see value in cross-grading to a different housing. ....If an adapter would address module issues and the two camera options would be functionally identical.
Click to expand...

It depends if we can have no blackshading.
 
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