November 30th Announcement Feedback

[Todd M.]

The new Arri cameras do some interesting tricks to get High(er) Dynamic Range video:


Lots of secret sauce in the sensor, most of it we cannot talk about.

One thing we can talk about is the Dual Gain Architecture. We are taking the signal from each pixel, and splitting it into two different pathways. One with high, one with low gain. So out of 32 signal paths from the sensor to the A/D converters now we have made 64. Each goes into a 14 bit A/D converter, and then the high gain and the low gain 14 bit images are being re-combined in the camera electronics into a 16 bit image with meaningful brightness data in all 165 bits. HDR.

Yes, this is what I was thinking. What we are talking about is purely digital data. If the raw data could be duplicated or triplicated and fed into different processing streams, you would not need to have multiple exposures for each of the HDR passes.

 

[Quentin Brown]

I have one outstanding question that I have asked (out of a number) that I would especially love to hear some kind of an answer on from the guys at RED.

Can you give us any kind of information about the recording format used for the 1080 and 720 scaled output from scarlet?

Presumably it can't be a true RAW format as it's been scaled and de-bayered. Someone mentioned Redcode RGB is this true? If so any info on it posted anywhere?

If this part is not hardwired into the ASIC and you guys haven't locked it in yet so can't really say then let me know and I'll shut up about it okay?

 

[John Nouel]

LAN

LAN

Hi Nik,

There are two main types (Although the same type actually) of connections that can be done with a Ethernet/Wifi/Cable/Modem conection.

For a internet conection you need a Internet Operator DNS that will connect you to the so called internet. That can be with all the above mentioned, and you are limited to a download speed and a upload speed asigned by the company (And this limitations vary from what the company offers to also what physically a cable, phone conections, etc. can offer)

Now, a computer can also created a INTERNAL network. This is mostly called LAN (Intranet, Interlan, on the old days). Internal networks works just like internet, but in a local way with a modem o router.

Let's say you have a WIRELESS MODEM connected to your computer. That Modem have the internet conection and it distributes this conections to the other computers on your home.

This is done by creating a INTERNAL NETWORK to which computers on your home connect.

So all computers and apps that connect within this internal network can also connect to eachother by LAN connection (with no need of the internet)

See it like a "closed circuit" internet conection.

Now, the limit of speed here is not what a company can offer you buy what your modem, or Ethernet computer card can offer you.

Common LINKSYS WIFI modems go from 20Mb/s of upload 40mb/s of Download. This mean that if you have Two laptops connected by cable to this modem, and you connect each laptop within this network (Created by one of the laptops with the modem), you can transfer a file with that speed.

This of course may vary. Years ago the limit of a ethernet cable was upgraded to "Gigabit" Ethernet, which is 1gb/s speed on the modem or cable/ethernet Gigabit card. All moderm PC and MACS have this kind of ethernet card.

Lets say 10 years from now a company offers internet speed to 900mb/s, you could still use this cards and wifi modems to that speed. (I here suffer on a 1mb conection)

So, with red, you can transfer files via LAN to a computer at 1gb/s, which is pretty good.

 

[paulherrin]

Yes, this is what I was thinking. What we are talking about is purely digital data. If the raw data could be duplicated or triplicated and fed into different processing streams, you would not need to have multiple exposures for each of the HDR passes.

yeah, that's what I meant too.

 

[Quentin Brown]

Audio Inputs

Audio Inputs

If memory serves correct- audio is limited to 4 channels per camera. I asked about using two pro I/Os for 8 channels of AES/EBU and if I remember correctly, Steward said that the 4 AES/EBU Inputs will disable any other inputs.

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showpost.php?p=504729&postcount=1106

But what can I say? A boy can dream, cant he?

Hey Bill,

I think I read that post way back when and it got me thinking about an ideal audio module system for the new RED cameras. My posts were earlier in this thread and are quoted below. Any thoughts?

With this modular and wireless enabled system I can foresee many possible future audio modules and innovations in that field to add to all the imaging ones you guys are making.

I figure you are not all so sexed up on audio gear and focused on imaging but hey as the audio guys like to say - in video and film Audio is 70% of what you see. To my mind ready synced on-board audio is an important part of the work-flow streamlining going on with digital cinema so the camera developer are the ones who can innovate further here and you guys at red are just so damn good at innovation I can't wait to see what you come up with.

A fully synced, meta-data embedded, expandable modular multichannel on-board audio recording system with wireless monitoring and control anybody?

:thumbsup:

(I'm no audio guy but I like my gear and take an interest in all fields - can't say if an audio guy would actually rate my ideas here)

(sorry to hijack this thread temporarily but I figure you guys from Red are reading this thread closely)

To further expand the modules I'm thinking of here for audio:

It has been stated before that 4 channels simultaneous recording is the max for the cameras at present. There can be many situations where a sound recordist would want to record more than 4 discreet channels of audio. If he does this on a separate device then he would need to cable up and sync to timecode if he wants to make syncing in post easier. (like I say, I'm not a sound guy so feel free to correct me on this)

Might it not be nicer to be able to record these extra channels in camera and have them transfer in perfect sync together with the video files?

So what I suggest is something like this:

• Two separate styles of audio module
• One that has on board recording to CF media and acts as a master unit for the others
• the second provides 4 full size XLR inputs plus any other appropriate connectors, has high quality on board pre-amps, Compressor limiters and DACs for the inputs.
• The Master unit can have any number of these input units attached up to a certain limit and will record the audio input from them onto it's media, taking metadata and rec/stop controls from the camera brain and any DSMC controller system like the Redmote
• The audio recording module could also accept redvolt batteries or a battery module to enable the sound recordist to use it independently if desired
• When working as a separate unit a redmote can be attached passing all camera data and controls to the unit wirelessly

Combine this with the Redmote audio monitoring and control surface capabilities mentioned earlier and we would have something very interesting - if it is at all technically possible.

The main factors that I can see preventing this from working might be data rates, reliability and latency in the wifi connection. I don't know enough about these to know if it could be done or not.
me = :confused1: , :conehead: = needed

Once again sorry for hijacking with my probably crazy ideas...

Perhaps we can get some further interest raised for this or a similar concept if it sounds good to you - if enough people want it someone will probably make if not Red themselves.

 

[Tom Lowe]

I wonder if anyone on the Red team might be willing to venture a guess on the odds of getting a Stage 2 Epic X with a sub #400 trade in by May 1st?

 

[Nik Harper]

Hi Nik,

There are two main types (Although the same type actually) of connections that can be done with a Ethernet/Wifi/Cable/Modem conection.

For a internet conection you need a Internet Operator DNS that will connect you to the so called internet. That can be with all the above mentioned, and you are limited to a download speed and a upload speed asigned by the company (And this limitations vary from what the company offers to also what physically a cable, phone conections, etc. can offer)

Now, a computer can also created a INTERNAL network. This is mostly called LAN (Intranet, Interlan, on the old days). Internal networks works just like internet, but in a local way with a modem o router.

Let's say you have a WIRELESS MODEM connected to your computer. That Modem have the internet conection and it distributes this conections to the other computers on your home.

This is done by creating a INTERNAL NETWORK to which computers on your home connect.

So all computers and apps that connect within this internal network can also connect to eachother by LAN connection (with no need of the internet)

See it like a "closed circuit" internet conection.

Now, the limit of speed here is not what a company can offer you buy what your modem, or Ethernet computer card can offer you.

Common LINKSYS WIFI modems go from 20Mb/s of upload 40mb/s of Download. This mean that if you have Two laptops connected by cable to this modem, and you connect each laptop within this network (Created by one of the laptops with the modem), you can transfer a file with that speed.

This of course may vary. Years ago the limit of a ethernet cable was upgraded to "Gigabit" Ethernet, which is 1gb/s speed on the modem or cable/ethernet Gigabit card. All moderm PC and MACS have this kind of ethernet card.

Lets say 10 years from now a company offers internet speed to 900mb/s, you could still use this cards and wifi modems to that speed. (I here suffer on a 1mb conection)

So, with red, you can transfer files via LAN to a computer at 1gb/s, which is pretty good.

Ok there we go, thank you! I knew that it was local area network and gigabit ethernet, but someone had confused me and said that you wouldn't be able to plug it into your computer. So if I've got it straight now, you can plug your ethernet cable from the camera to your comp or a LAN and get an upload speed of 1gb/sec??! That's retarded fast! And that sounds like my upload method haha.

 

[ScottyC]

AND even with the exact same shot is going to give you motion issues at different shutter speeds, obviously, when dealing with quick motion especially.

I know what you are saying about the tone mapping... But let me give you something to think about. I believe the slow motion (faster frame rates) requires MORE light because the sensor photosites get much less light in 120 frames per second than when shooting 24 frames per second.

I am sure David Mullen could elaborate a bit more on this. His article about shooting with the Phantom at 1000 frames per second mentioned his need for a lot more light to capture a "dark" type of scene.

Basically, motion issues aside, you will still run into other tech issues trying to get HDR motion.

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

To be the devils advocate- Have we heard it from the lips of RED that there isn't video on the REDremote and REDremote Pro? They like to leave those important things up their sleeves. OLED- Just sayin'. (And if they have- my bad. I've done what I can to keep up on all the reading. Shoot- If I read this much in college, I'd have gotten a 4.0)

Yes. Repeatedly.

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Will Scarlet/Epic support internal switching or will we need a cross over cable to go direct?

 

[ScottyC]

The new Arri cameras do some interesting tricks to get High(er) Dynamic Range video:


Lots of secret sauce in the sensor, most of it we cannot talk about.

One thing we can talk about is the Dual Gain Architecture. We are taking the signal from each pixel, and splitting it into two different pathways. One with high, one with low gain. So out of 32 signal paths from the sensor to the A/D converters now we have made 64. Each goes into a 14 bit A/D converter, and then the high gain and the low gain 14 bit images are being re-combined in the camera electronics into a 16 bit image with meaningful brightness data in all 165 bits. HDR.

How does this deal with noise issues in the shadows from the higher gain footage? Just curious. Would be interesting to see the results and compare to footage that doesn't go through this process from the same sensor.

 

[Steven Caesare]

Ok there we go, thank you! I knew that it was local area network and gigabit ethernet, but someone had confused me and said that you wouldn't be able to plug it into your computer. So if I've got it straight now, you can plug your ethernet cable from the camera to your comp or a LAN and get an upload speed of 1gb/sec??! That's retarded fast! And that sounds like my upload method haha.

Almost.

Plugging it directly in to your computer may not be a given. That depends on a few factors, including the type of cable you have, the type of network interface on your computer, the type of interface RED puts on the camera, and may require some specific configuration.

This type of connection (called a crossover connection) is certainly doable, but it would likely be much easier to plug the camera in to another port on your network switch (which may be built in to your router).

-sc

 

[D Fuller]

1gb speed

1gb speed

So if I've got it straight now, you can plug your ethernet cable from the camera to your comp or a LAN and get an upload speed of 1gb/sec??! That's retarded fast! And that sounds like my upload method haha.

Just so that everybody has a real-world reference, 1gb/sec is a little faster that firewire 800 (25% faster in a perfect world, but not-so-much faster in the real world). And it's quite a lot slower than eSATA. (1/3 the speed in that perfect world I mentioned, but usually about half the speed in my real world.)

 

[Nik Harper]

Almost.

Plugging it directly in to your computer may not be a given. That depends on a few factors, including the type of cable you have, the type of network interface on your computer, the type of interface RED puts on the camera, and may require some specific configuration.

This type of connection (called a crossover connection) is certainly doable, but it would likely be much easier to plug the camera in to another port on your network switch (which may be built in to your router).

-sc

Ok so it may not be quite as fast as 1gb/sec but close? And I don't think getting the right cable will be a problem for me, because if I can make it upload that fast then I definitly want to because that's pretty dang quick.

And let's see if I have this right now, I could possibley plug my Ethernet cable from my camera to the router which send out a signal to the computers in the area, and whether the signal includes an Internet signal or not, the router still sends out a signal that my computer will pick up and be able to connect from camera to computer wirelessly?? That's what's it is sounding like. And of course I'm basing this off my current situation in which I have a wireless router.

 

[Nik Harper]

Just so that everybody has a real-world reference, 1gb/sec is a little faster that firewire 800 (25% faster in a perfect world, but not-so-much faster in the real world). And it's quite a lot slower than eSATA. (1/3 the speed in that perfect world I mentioned, but usually about half the speed in my real world.)

Ok so then it's not truely an entire gb per second?

 

[D Fuller]

Ok so it may not be quite as fast as 1gb/sec but close? And I don't think getting the right cable will be a problem for me, because if I can make it upload that fast then I definitly want to because that's pretty dang quick.

And let's see if I have this right now, I could possibley plug my Ethernet cable from my camera to the router which send out a signal to the computers in the area, and whether the signal includes an Internet signal or not, the router still sends out a signal that my computer will pick up and be able to connect from camera to computer wirelessly?? That's what's it is sounding like. And of course I'm basing this off my current situation in which I have a wireless router.

Well, you would get the connections that way, but you would not get the speed. You have to be hard-wired all the way to get 1gb speeds. Wireless is just too slow. (100 times slower, give or take)

So... you need the computer and the camera and the router to support Gigabit Ethernet, and they have to be hard-wired together. And on a good setup with reasonably fast drives, you should see data transfer speeds of close to 2 GB/min.

 

[Quentin Brown]

If you connect from your computer via wifi to your router and camera then you will be limited by the speeds supported by your wifi setup. For full speed Gigabit ethernet all items involved should be physically plugged into the router.

 

[Andy Jarosz]

Ok so then it's not truely an entire gb per second?

Remember we're also talking about Gigabits, not Gigabytes.

 

[Quentin Brown]

D Fuller has a point here, and he just beat me to the punch.

The actual storage on board the camera is unlikely to support 1gb/s read speed for transfers that max out the Gigabit Ethernet. Much more likely it will be significantly slower - although the SSD option may have this kind of performance (I don't know much about SSD speeds yet)

No doubt future recording modules will get faster and faster and eventually max out the Gigabit Ethernet.

I suggest you go do some googling if you have any more questions, this kind of stuff is very well explained all over the web and we are in danger of taking this thread too far off topic and it would be nice if it was kept uncluttered so we can focus in on the meat of the announcement and any further details Red have to offer.

 

[Steven Caesare]

Ok so it may not be quite as fast as 1gb/sec but close? And I don't think getting the right cable will be a problem for me, because if I can make it upload that fast then I definitly want to because that's pretty dang quick.

And let's see if I have this right now, I could possibley plug my Ethernet cable from my camera to the router which send out a signal to the computers in the area, and whether the signal includes an Internet signal or not, the router still sends out a signal that my computer will pick up and be able to connect from camera to computer wirelessly?? That's what's it is sounding like. And of course I'm basing this off my current situation in which I have a wireless router.

Your switch/router likely has wired internal LAN ports running at 100Mbs (medium sized pipes).

It also may support wireless, which is likely a 54Mbs link (smaller pipes).

Your router also has an uplink out to the internet, which speed varies depending on your service, but anywhere from 1-20Mbps are common (tiny pipes).

The Scarlet and Epic will have a wired port running at 1Gbps. (a huge pipe).

Now, data can pnly go as fast as the smallest pipe in chain. If you connect both the camera and your computer to your switch/router using a 100Mbps port, that's as fast as the data will transfer.

If you connect the camera to a 100Mbps port, and your computer via the wireless link, you are now at 54Mbps max.

If you want to utilize as much of the capability as the network port on the camera has to offer, you will need to connect it at 1Gbps. You also will need to connect your computer at 1Gbps (provided it has a network card supporting that speed). This may require a new switch/router, as most do not support 1Gbps connections.

Or, if direct-connect between computer and camera is possible, you can forego the switch, but would still need a 1Gbps network card on your computer, and likely a special cable. And you may have to do some manual computer configuration to support this.

-sc