Nov. 3rd take 2...

[Felix Steinhardt]

You all forget the price of the storage media!
Low end people like me (GH2, FS100) are used to 24 mbit AVCHD recorded on SD cards -> 16 GB = 40 €...
When people see the scarlet fixed for 6000 USD, they will be happy, but then they enter the store and find the SSD prices -> Heartattack

I once recorded 180 minutes on SD cards on an event, where I did not have time to copy stuff.
That would mean I need 3 64 GB SSDs.

Oh and don´t forget batteries. The FS100 runs 10 h on one battery which costs 50 € on ebay.
The redvolts run barely one hour so you need 10 of them -> 1800 USD

If the LEXAR 16 GB 600x CF cards worked, it would be great but as far as I know, these cards are limited to 2k recording

 

[David Battistella]

The world is not free.

Only labour seems to be free right now.

David

 

[Eric Lange]

It's essentially the Scarlet FF35. Which was supposed to come out in Winter 2009. I don't know that hoping for something 2 years late is stretching all that much. After all they've pushed the Epic-S by more than that framerate wise in previous announcements.

As to 60p. I was thinking 50p @ 6k (or PAL + HDRx). I would imagine 60p would be easy @ 4.5k. Why build two cameras when you can just make one that can crop down to S35?

Epic-S was last known to be 5k 16:9 @ 60fps. (50*6*3.375)/(60*5*2.8) = 120% of the last known Epic-S specs. 20% price increase = about $14.5k. That's again too close of a price to make sense to have a separate product in a year. And (16x9)/(16x12) = 75% so if you wanted to shoot full frame 4:3 for DSMC stills you could still crank out 37 fps. Or you could easily pull 4:3 5k for anamorphic @ 48fps.

That would be really amazing and amazing useful for us.

I hope your analysis turns out to be true, big time…

Cheers.

 

[Nick Pasquariello]

Canon's 1Dx costs arround 6800 USD!
Now waiting for Price for Scarlet!
The main question will be fixed Scarlet for arround 7K or only more expensive interchangable for arround 12K.
Probably only interchangable, 3K for 6000 USD is very little price.

Anything under $10K for a decent total package = way, way more people able to get RED into their hands. Shooting higher def than 1080p (i.e. 3k) on a camera package that costs as much or less than the Sony EX-3, to a better, more versatile format = High value Cinematographer. Higher value = equal or greater pay for a Cinematographer that has spent equal or less money on equipment. Which = paying back the investment made on Scarlet faster.

Everything right now is speculation, with very little confirmed. But I can confirm that if I can shoot Redcode at 3K for less than $10k, I am going to fight tooth and nail to make that happen for myself. For someone "just starting out" or "taking the next step up", this is nothing short of revolutionary.

 

[Eric Lange]

Anything under $10K for a decent total package = way, way more people able to get RED into their hands. Shooting higher def than 1080p (i.e. 3k) on a camera package that costs as much or less than the Sony EX-3, to a better, more versatile format = High value Cinematographer. Higher value = equal or greater pay for a Cinematographer that has spent equal or less money on equipment. Which = paying back the investment made on Scarlet faster.

Everything right now is speculation, with very little confirmed. But I can confirm that if I can shoot Redcode at 3K for less than $10k, I am going to fight tooth and nail to make that happen for myself. For someone "just starting out" or "taking the next step up", this is nothing short of revolutionary.

That's the way were are looking at it in terms of getting RED into our hands for now and for the future.


The way I’m looking at it is that we can do useful stuff with a notional “scarlet like” instruments right now as soon as they are available. Probably in the longer term the real value will be to learn the RED “platform” inside and out to the last atom, as best as we can. So for example if a Scarlet or a pricier Epic-S idea costs $10K or $15k respectively, then this is good value for money to learn the “system”. To my eye given that we need to move into EPIC and even higher resolution (future) offerings this gives us the opportunity to really figure out some tricky applications that we need to solve with RED Scarlet/Epic styled equipment/instruments. If we were to rent an EPIC-M or X just spending ten days futzing about trying to get a better understanding of what we will need to be doing will probably be more expensive than buying an EPIC-S or advanced Scarlet and having the ability to take our time to really figure this stuff out. So when we do have EPICS in hand from rental or otherwise, we are much more completely versed in what really needs to be done and what to expect.

That’s the way I’m looking at it, for us it’s a cost effective and relevant way to learn RED ”System” and platform and do some work/R&D that pays (hopefully many many times over).

My 2c.

Cheers,

Eric

 

[Häakon]

It's way cool if they implemented some proper downscaling instead of line-skipping. That would be a huge step forward in quality for them. This is what Canon needs to do across their SLR line...

I don't think they're going to do it in their SLR line, and this is what you're going to see on November 3rd. In my opinion, that's a very good thing, though I know not everyone agrees (including the folks at RED).

 

[Phil Anderson]

You all forget the price of the storage media!

I think you are generally right Felix. This is why I don't think a base model of Scarlet will be over $7k at most. I can still definitely see Scarlet shipping with a CF module, one CF card (or none), and one battery, and this coming in at $6k. Might not even ship with the Redmote. This would still be a pretty good price if you ask me. Of course, you're probably going to need to spend another $1k minimum to fully use it with any practicality at all. But that's still not bad at all for what this camera could do.

I think this is why a lot of us are expecting to spend up to, or over $10k for Scarlet - a working Scarlet package that is. Add the SSD module and a couple cards, add a few batteries, add the travel charger, and before you know it, you've reached $10k. And I think a lot of shooters are expecting this without really blinking too much.

If it turns out Scarlet ships with the SSD module, Redmote, travel charger, and still hits $6k, then I'll be pleasantly surprised.

 

[Bill Anderson]

As was just pointed out in the "3 weeks" thread: Jim's statement about "never ever being out of back order" means the opposite of what most have read this as: it means that Scarlet will ALWAYS be IN backorder, that is how popular Jim expects it to be.

Assuming this is what Jim meant, those words should give us an idea as to the extreme nature of Scarlet because "never, ever" is a very long time.

 

[Lliam Worthington]

Yep for my two cents, this piece of speculation is probably key - to at least the 3k 2-3rds debates
What sort of Scarlet camera would never ever be out of back order again?
A 3k 2/3 - while I think would still be a great camera, I just don't think could make this claim.
A 4K S35 with RED'S modularity and total commitment to ongoing development. I doubt that would ever become obsolete in my lifetime.
And could conceivably be seen as always being in backorder.

I think the other key to guessing is probably looking at RED'S history and philosophy vs other companies.
Above all they are innovators, they push boundaries and drive change, and there's NO DOUBT, anything but providing and being the best, simply will not do.

Then you have the business models themselves. Why become like other companies and continue to make camera after camera after camera and try to squeeze them to fit between each other... This model HAS made sense for consumer targeted companies for a long time as it has generated a lot of money. But in 2011? Why spend another $500 on a point and shoot when you can spend it on getting a better phone that does a great all in one job and you will always have it with you. That is a massive impact on the consumer camera market imo. And for me the delineation between pro and consumer will be becoming clearer and clearer. Pros and aspiring pros buy camera's - consumers use their phones.

So I believe the writing is on the wall for this model. Modularity/expandability/flexibility is obviously the future. God love RED.
So anyway, where am I going with this. I don't feel it makes sense to be planning a line of many different kinds of cameras or even brains (not many anyway) that just do a bit better than the one below it, or worse, does one thing better, but another thing worse. Which clearly drives most people crazy.

No, the answer is to have just 2 or 3 at most cameras at different price points that are all excellent and all still capable of delivering to 4k theatre projection down.

Then, focus your efforts on just constantly creating more and more exciting and powerful add ons, features, upgrades. As a company, you get to constantly focus on innovating. This is RED to a tee isn't it? Why bother with a lot of models or waste time redesigning the wheel. Which is 9 times out of 10 completely unnecessary unless you are just trying to pull the wool over people eyes eye yet again in order to get them to part with their money for essentially the same product in a different coloured wrapper.

I do understand the need in business to create/have repeat sales products. Especially when your focus is solely to look after your shareholder. I was taught this. But times area changing. Obsolescence/repackaging/rebranding vs repeat sales through constant innovation and modularity, in the age of interconnection, access and immediacy. It simply no longer compares. RED understands this. Hell they're leading the charge.

Some may feel differently. But I would much rather spend another 5K every year powering up my Scarlet until I can afford an EPIC, than reselling and trying to get the slightly better next best thing every two years or so. I want to maximise the time I get to work at my art. The potential lack of which I find the hardest thing in this industry. Which is exactly why I should shut the hell up and get off this forum right now and back to my upcoming fundraiser for my film -then i can get my Scarlet, and I will then have to do less cash driven peripherals and have more time to be creative. Can't wait. As sometime I feel like the other stuff is killing me.

Just FAR TOO ADDICTIVE with the big day approaching, and theer are so many great minds on here that it makes for great speculation. Easily the best forum I have ever frequented. SHould have done it sooner. But I couldn't afford RED, so I was out tehre working with what I had instead.

Best all
Lliam

 

[Paul Ellington]

Minimum $15,000.00 that's my bet.

 

[Phil Anderson]

dssssssazWhat sort of Scarlet camera would never ever be out of back order again?
A 3k 2/3 - while I think would still be a great camera, I just don't think could make this claim.
A 4K S35 with RED'S modularity and total commitment to ongoing development. I doubt that would ever become obsolete in my lifetime.

$15,000

You've just described Epic-S, which I think will be announced, and possibly available for order, fairly soon after November 3rd.

I would be extremely surprised if the Scarlet we've been seeing in Ted's hands (and others) and saw "an army of Scarlet's" photo posted by Jarred, would no longer exist, and be replaced by a camera with Epic-S specs and price, called Scarlet.

 

[Paul Ellington]

My point is this -- it's all subject to change, and Scarlett I think will become EPIC-S with a base price of 15K, just saying, and it's more than reasonable ... what every person of the planet should start out as a DP? No, at least not in my opinoin.

 

[Stephen Matthews]

But that is not changing the scarlet that is releasing the Epic-S with yet another name change, I'm sure people would be needlessly confused(even more so than last time).

 

[Brendan Sandham]

I think very little good can come from this sort of speculation at this point. Unless it comes directly from Jim, Jarred or Ted, I'm inclined to give it a few more days : ).

 

[Paul Ellington]

but what do you think the S stands for?

 

[Stephen Matthews]

It would still not be scarlet or a scarlet, it would be Epic-S is my point... not something you would advertise as such but who knows. I'm not saying Epic-s is not going to come out I'm just not so certain it will be called scarlet... but then again who knows anything could happen.

 

[Lliam Worthington]

I understand the points being raised, and my caveat is that I ofcourse don't know jack. Just musing.
However to be honest I'm not sure RED cares at all for preserving what they may have planned in the past, when it comes to doing what they feel is the best thing to do in the now. And really whatever they choose to call scarlet will assuredly become scarlet.

I won't be too surprised if the 2'3rd is offered. But nor would I be surprised if they feel they are doing something special by upping the specs and sensor size. When I looked at what's taking place v canon and how digital cinema is progressing the specs previously associated with epic s at a higher price point seemed quite possible to me as the New improved Scarlet.

Im not attached though. It's all good. Really good actually )

 

[Paul Ellington]

Stop comparing Canon and RED. Canon can't handle moving images the sane way, they also don't have as much info. The only thing that they are good for is really their lenses, and for me as a DOP, I want a set of glass where it's a person not a machine freezing up. S is Scarlett, or EPIC-S which might be better would be the new Scarlett. The Stones said it best, ... "You Can't Always Get What You Want, But If You Try Sometime You Just Might Find, You Get WHat You Need" ... So Save up... Ad a couple more thousand to your budget. NITE FOLKS!

 

[Lliam Worthington]

Stop comparing Canon and RED...

WIth respect Paul, I'm pretty sure it's a very relevant discussion point.


"This date will be huge for everyone in this industry.

Canon will announce it's very best effort for digital cinema. RED will announce Scarlet.

A powerhouse and an upstart going head to head. One day.

This is huge for everyone. Wow!

Canon on the red carpet in Hollywood and RED from the garage. Head to head.

The anticipation is incredible. A big moment for all. Really.

It will be telling in a number of ways. Canon can make a huge difference in this industry and has called for everyone's attention. We will all be watching what they are going to do. A few will also be watching what RED is doing.

This will be a great moment in time. The customers win. No matter what.

Anyone in this industry that isn't paying attention on Nov. 3rd doesn't have a pulse. It is like Ali vs. Frasier. I can't wait."

Jim

 

[Eric Lange]

I understand the points being raised, and my caveat is that I ofcourse don't know jack. Just musing.
However to be honest I'm not sure RED cares at all for preserving what they may have planned in the past, when it comes to doing what they feel is the best thing to do in the now. And really whatever they choose to call scarlet will assuredly become scarlet.

I won't be too surprised if the 2'3rd is offered. But nor would I be surprised if they feel they are doing something special by upping the specs and sensor size. When I looked at what's taking place v canon and how digital cinema is progressing the specs previously associated with epic s at a higher price point seemed quite possible to me as the New improved Scarlet.

Im not attached though. It's all good. Really good actually )

I like the cut of your jib young man….

I know I will get burnt at the stake and tarred and feathered for this.

Ok a 3k device with fixed optics etc. seems like an accessory or something that you could hang off a key chain (compared to how these guys think). Over the past three years RED’s market space has been a moving target, without question. A wish list from three years ago dosen’t make sense to me either. RED is always forward thinking and is forever it seems passing the ball forward to where people are going to be.

Yup a 3k fixed lens shooter would sell nearly a hundred thousand units… or more, (no question), but that is simply NOT Red’s market space, that would really be heading in the wrong direction. So I would definitely expect more rarified capabilities come the day to chop demand from a hundred thousand units to maybe 20 thousand units? If people feel that the ball has been thrown to far forward in a year or two these people will eventually catch up. I don’t see the benefit in retrograde thinking for the RED “business” model.

[I think if they have 3k shooter fixed lens shooter, the whole camera should be built into a pistol grip, that would be fun].

Cheers,

Eric